Issue with many vape shops...

[Baditude]

People are afraid of using mechs because we've scared them into thinking you have to be a 'ohm's law master' or something. The truth is that as long as you don't build too low, you use good batteries and know the resistance range you're seeking, they're very safe.

There is always that "BUT..." or "IF..." factor when discussing the truth. (sarcasm) I do agree, as long as you know the measured resistance of your atomizer and know the real amp limit of your battery and stay within its safe operating range, vaping on a mech can be reasonably safe. Problem is, too few salesmen teach this and too few consumers learn this on their own.

Having worked for a midwestern vape shop francise as a sales associate for a year and observed both niave sales staff and niave consumers, those truths are not universally known by either consumers or sales staff. I don't know what the "answers" are to correct that.

Another problem is, accidents happen no matter how safe we claim to be. One memorable incident happened to me a couple of years ago. Out of the blue, the vape on my 0.6 ohm atty/mech became extremely harsh. I stopped vaping it immediately and began diagnostic steps. Measuring the resistance, it was now reading 0.1 ohm -- a 0.5 ohm drop in resistance (one of the post screws had become loose). Had I not made my build with reasonable safe headroom, I likely would have had a hard short and vented the battery.

How many mech users have adequate venting in their mechanical tube "just in case" a battery would vent. I would venture to say only 20% do. Mech Mods with top venting holes?

Time permitting, staff would make coils for clients in the shop. We had an inhouse rule to not build coils less than 1.0 ohm for clients for liability reasons -- a wise idea, but if new clients wanted to build their own subohm coils we could observe and advise during construction (unwise?).

We had several master coil builders making exotic coils for their personal use, but most of them ignored battery continuous discharge rates and used off brand batteries. The store even had protected ICR batteries in the battery display case (against my verbal protests), and my store manager almost sold one of these batteries to a new mech user wanting to sub-ohm before I pulled her aside. Luckily, most staff considered me the store's battery expert and consulted me frequently, but there were many times that I wasn't present because I was a part time employee.

I recall a particular guy I didn't recognize sampling flavors at the juice bar. I had the time, so I struck up a conversation. I didn't recognize his setup, so I asked to see it. He didn't know the resistance of his RDA (he didn't own an ohm meter), so I measured it -- 0.1 ohm. I checked the battery -- I recognized it as a Samsung 26F (a 4 amp protected ICR battery). The mech didn't have a lock for the fire button and had no vent holes. Needless to say I educated this chap that he was lucky to still have all of his fingers and face and why. I had him buy a recommended battery and told him to get a new coil with an acceptable resistance and buy an ohm meter.

I would often tell my customers to visit ECF. I would also try to educate my customers in store, but management often put limits on how much time we could be with individual clients in order to attend to the next customer. To their credit, management did hold educational lectures (with free pizza and pop) for topics like coil building and battery safety about once a month.

And yes, I was paid minimum wage on a part time schedule. A majority of the sales staff were pretty young women who had just begun vaping. Most made an attempt to learn what needed to be known but that takes time and most didn't last more than 6 months.

 

[ScottP]

There is always that "BUT..." or "IF..." factor when discussing the truth. (sarcasm)

Having worked for a vape shop francise as a sales associate for a year and observed both niave sales staff and niave consumers, those truths are not universally known by either consumers or sales staff. I don't know what the "answers" are to correct that.

Time permitting, staff would make coils for clients. We had an inhouse rule to not build coils less than 1.0 ohm for clients, but if clients wanted to build their own subohm coils we could observe and advise during construction.

We had several master coil builders making exotic coils, but most of them ignored battery continuous discharge rates and used off brand batteries. The store even had protected ICR batteries in the battery display case (against my verbal protests), and my store manager almost sold one of these batteries to a new mech user before I pulled her aside. Luckily, most staff considered me the store's battery expert and consulted me frequently, but there were many times that I wasn't present as I was a part time employee.

I would often tell my customers to visit ECF. I would also try to educate my customers in store, but management often put limits on how much time we could be with individual clients in order to attend to the next customer. To their credit, management did hold educational lectures (with free pizza and pop) for topics like coil building about once a month.

And yes, I was paid minimum wage on a part time schedule.

So now I have the solution. We send Baditude to China, let them clone him, making thousands of copies and put one in every vape shop in the US.

 

[DaveP]

So now I have the solution. We send Baditude to China, let them clone him, making thousands of copies and put one in every vape shop in the US.

FDA will probably develop and require a certification program for vape shop employees to ensure safety and compliance. Maybe they'll get bumped up to Electrical Workers Union scale wage rates for coil winding.

Couldn't help myself!

 

[stormjib]

I can't do much about what people in shops know, but I'm hoping that within the online vape community at least, we can start to demystify and undemonize mechanical mods. While thinking more about it, it occurs to me that perhaps people use the fear of mechs to make them feel safer using regulated mods. Personally, I view both with about equal caution, and I've heard a heck of a lot more stories about regulated mods having problems than I have about mechanical ones, especially ones with a regular 510 connection. No matter what tool you're talking about, knowing your equipment is the best safety measure of any.
On a side note, in a moment of clumsiness the other day, I knocked my mod, complete with rda, into a sink full of water. I'm pretty sure if it had been a regulated mod that would have been the end of it, but because it was a mech squonk box, I just took the battery out, dried out the mod, re-wicked the rda, put in a different battery, and was right back to using it. When I went to test the voltage of the battery after it completely dried, it was exactly what it had been before the dunking.

 

[ENAUD]

I think the right needle file chucked into a drill would make quick work of enlarging the air intake (a little at a time!).

The Hadaly clone looks like a winner.

The IGO-L is one of my go to atomizers, the top cap is very easy to open up the air hole with a needle file or a small drill bit, it can be done by hand with the use of a pin vise, and only takes a couple minutes. I have tried a lot of different drippers but still use my IGO's pretty regularly, especially on my REOs mods, Rob modified the IGO-W which is a three post iteration of the same attie, and the single hole L top cap fits it so one can use single coil builds.

The SXK Hadaly clone is also an excellent atomizer, I've got three of them for a more airy vape.

 

[mikepetro]

I have seen this happen in many industries.

A successful endeavor starts out as a boutique industry of knowledgeable and dedicated people, who sincerely want to help the customer. It takes off, becomes popular, more shops open up, big money starts paying attention. Gradually it becomes a commodity industry and the chains take over, paying next to minimum wage, and hiring anybody willing to show up for work. Meanwhile the original knowledgeable and dedicated people get pushed out of business.

What started out as a boutique industry 10 years ago has now become a commodity industry where the bottom line is monthly sales receipts, keep labor costs low, upsell the customer if you can, and what the customers do with the product is their business.

 

[ScottP]

Maybe they'll get bumped up to Electrical Workers Union scale wage rates.

GAWD let's hope not. That will put essentially all vape shops out of business. They are already significantly more expensive than online shops, that would make their prices be several times higher than they are now. No one would shop there anymore.

 

[DaveP]

I have seen this happen in many industries.

A successful endeavor starts out as a boutique industry of knowledgeable and dedicated people, who sincerely want to help the customer. It takes off, becomes popular, more shops open up, big money starts paying attention. Gradually it becomes a commodity industry and the chains take over, paying next to minimum wage, and hiring anybody willing to show up for work. Meanwhile the original knowledgeable and dedicated people get pushed out of business.

What started out as a boutique industry 10 years ago has now become a commodity industry where the bottom line is monthly sales receipts, keep labor costs low, upsell the customer if you can, and what the customers do with the product is their business.

Watch out for VapeMart in your local area! It's true. Where there's profit there's intense competition, at least where there's high customer traffic. I don't really see anything but the possibility of a number of huge vape store chains, though. We already have chains with 10 and 15 locations in some parts of the country.

Walmart has a few vape items in the tobacco sales counter, but they are mostly cigalikes.

 

[mikepetro]

The thing is, if the vape shop doesnt offer any "added value", like education, then why support them? If all I get at a vape shop is higher prices served up by some young kid who doesnt know NI from TI, then I might as well just go to FT.

 

[ScottP]

The thing is, if the vape shop doesnt offer any "added value", like education, then why support them? If all I get at a vape shop is higher prices served up by some young kid who doesnt know NI from TI, then I might as well just go to FT.

You underestimate the "instant gratification" crowd which is like 70% of the people. They want it yesterday, today is already too late and they will pay a premium to get it immediately.

Me? I am a cheap ......., I want the best price and I am willing to wait to get it. $Free.Fifty Free is my favorite price.

 

[DaveP]

The thing is, if the vape shop doesnt offer any "added value", like education, then why support them? If all I get at a vape shop is higher prices served up by some young kid who doesnt know NI from TI, then I might as well just go to FT.

Visiting even highly respected vape shops is amusing at times. They get all sorts and types of customers. Most want something that can create a cloud these days.

I get that vape shops make money on juice and hardware sales and they need higher prices to pay salaries and stock a wide variety of devices. One that's local to me has two bays in a shopping center. One is the retail outlet and next door is the online operation that ships out internet sales all day. You'd think that I could order and go pick up from the internet side, but they won't do that. It's a lock down operation. If you want to buy locally you have to go into the retail store and pay boutique prices.

They have both new and experienced people because turnover is fairly high. The experienced people become trainers and supervisors for the high turnover younger employees. If you stop by and start asking technical questions one of the experienced people will come over and listen/participate to make sure the advice you get is accurate and safe.

 

[Eskie]

As with virtually every other segment of consumer retail sales, online will continue to eat at the market share of B&M stores. Sure, there is an instant gratification to get something the same day, although you can probably get it with next day shipping and still be cheaper than many B&M stores.

The two places B&M can give online sales a run for the money is in juice tasting (let's face it, starting out who knew what that juice we ordered online would really taste like) and personal assistance and instruction. That has two long term problems. First, in store juice mixing and even tasting (notwithstanding pay $1 for tasting a bunch of stuff) is going to take a hit in the next several years with regulation. Second, the hardware we use isn't all that expensive, even at B&M stores. I mean, even on a $100 sale, what's the overall profit margin (hardware only, not house juice)? Is the sales volume and margin enough to cover lots of customer attention?

We've had these discussions going back a long ways, and the divergence between B&M and online keeps getting bigger. So the question does come up if this is hypothetically an all online business, what responsibilities should that online vendor have to insure proper instruction in use, if any, by their customers?

 

[mikepetro]

IMHO, YMMV,

If I am paying a premium price at a B&M then it should include "value added" services like teaching me how to safely use the equipment I am purchasing. An informed staff who knows their products and can accurately answer questions about them. A staff that can ask 2 or 3 questions to gauge my level of familiarity, and guide me accordingly.

If I am going to Amazon\FT\3F, I have no such expectations, I am simply looking for the the best value and as a consumer the responsibility is on me in terms of what I select, and its suitability for my intended use.

If I am shopping for an Espresso machine, I can go to the local B&M who will charge 20%-50% more but will show me the differences in the machines, ask me what type of espresso drinks I normally make & how many, and point out which machine might suit me best, as well as the idiosyncrasies of how to make the best cup with it, and what grinder would be most suited to it. Or.... I can go to Espresso Machines, Coffee Makers & Coffee - Whole Latte Love and get the machine of my choice at an online price.

The online world has changed how consumers make purchases, and consequently if B&Ms want to survive they have to offer the "value added" experience..... Or they wont survive!

 

[ScottP]

Every time I have ever asked a store employee the difference between two items, be it a coffee maker, a TV, microwave, computer, etc, they always look at the boxes or the info tags on the shelf to answer. In other words they are completely clueless. I guess a vape shop could offer that same level of "read the box to the customer" support every other store does. The ONLY exception to this is in new car sales but with their commission levels and the price of the products they make sure they know what they are talking about.

The fundamental truth is if a retailer spends more on training their prices WILL go up from where they are NOW.

 

[mikepetro]

Every time I have ever asked a store employee the difference between two items, be it a coffee maker, a TV, microwave, computer, etc, they always look at the boxes or the info tags on the shelf to answer. In other words they are completely clueless. I guess a vape shop could offer that same level of "read the box to the customer" support every other store does. The ONLY exception to this is in new car sales but with their commission levels and the price of the products they make sure they know what they are talking about.

The fundamental truth is if a retailer spends more on training their prices WILL go up from where they are NOW.

Guess it depends on the retailer. I can see what you describe happening in a Big Box Store. I had the "value added" experience I described above myself when buying an Espresso Machine from a B&M, also got the same guidance when buying a large fish tank and filtration.

I walked into a fancy vape store in the Charlotte area. KŪRE Vaporium & Lounge. Very Posh, lots of high end equipment, but the girl behind the counter was clueless unless all you wanted was coil cartridge type hardware.

Big Box stores are somewhere in between B&Ms and Online, their main value added is instant gratification.

Whether training increases prices or not can go either way, depends on how well they do it. Well trained staff can create clientele loyalty, and increase sales, which pays off if you are playing the long game. If you are playing the short game, then yes, investing 20 hours of training per employee in a high turnover location can get expensive and would have to be passed on.

 

[stols001]

It is interesting, during the ten years my son needed a fish tank, I would go to specialty fish stores regularly, and never ran into staff who didn't know what they were doing, heck, even at Walmart if we were buying something inexpensive, the employee for that section had decent knowledge. I know, since the fish have to be kept alive, a certain amount of training is needed for this position. But, can you imagine if most specialty stores for anything else operated in this fashion?

Now, that has not been my experience in all vape stores, which is why I only frequent the ones that do, since they deserve my business for not being awful. But, there does seem to be this "presumption" that vape store employees may not be well trained because they are minimum wage employees and I think we can (and should) hold vape stores to that same standard as any other specialty store. Most employers DO expect specialty store employees to learn the industry and train, to a degree. I don't understand why this same presumption and expectation isn't done n in many vape stores. I don't think you even require specialty experience to be hired, but there is absolutely no reason that employees can't (and shouldn't be) trained.

This seems to be the one industry (at least on this board) where multiple excuses are given as to why this can't happen. It's not that hard. If I can build coils and calculate the resistance I want and need, I don't see why employees can't learn these things.. I'd imagine many people wanting to work in vape store at least vape, and almost anyone can learn, with the RIGHT TRAINING.

I have decided that when I encounter a store without adequate training, I will find a way to talk to the OWNER. It's really on them whether or not safe practices are being explained and taught, and the best way to TELL a store that they are falling down on the job is to talk to the OWNER and let them know why they will not be receiving my patronage in the future. Money talks, and so does talking to the OWNER. They may not listen to ME, but if more folks did this, perhaps there would be a higher standard implemented.

I feel lucky to live near a knowledgeable vape shop and I got so much help and education while I was dual using, but even MORE importantly, THIS is my place to gain knowledge. If an internet forum and some reading can do the trick, I don't get it.

I just COILED my Vandy Vape Berserker tank, it's running fantastically, and I love the vape! For MTL folks, this RTA is pretty great. I will be purchasing a backup....

Anna

 

[Baditude]

As with virtually every other segment of consumer retail sales, online will continue to eat at the market share of B&M stores. Sure, there is an instant gratification to get something the same day, although you can probably get it with next day shipping and still be cheaper than many B&M stores.

The two places B&M can give online sales a run for the money is in juice tasting (let's face it, starting out who knew what that juice we ordered online would really taste like) and personal assistance and instruction. That has two long term problems. First, in store juice mixing and even tasting (notwithstanding pay $1 for tasting a bunch of stuff) is going to take a hit in the next several years with regulation. Second, the hardware we use isn't all that expensive, even at B&M stores. I mean, even on a $100 sale, what's the overall profit margin (hardware only, not house juice)? Is the sales volume and margin enough to cover lots of customer attention?

I totally agree with Eskie. A sign of the times is the disappearance of small businesses and large discount stores (Sears, Pennys, K-Mart, etc) to online stores such as Amazon. Online purchasing is becoming dominant and the new norm.

Probably the only reasons to buy from a vape B&M nowadays is as Eskie pointed out. The ability to sample scores of flavors at one sitting as opposed to buying a new flavor online based on a name or description. Who here remembers when we didn't have sample bars? How many mystery juices turned out to be unvapable?

Its hard to argue the upside to having the ability to see and hold hardware in your hand to determine fit, feel, weight, portability to your personal use versus a picture or diagram and possibly some measurements.

Vape stores are often caught between a rock and a hard place as far as merchandise. Items must be purchased in rather large lots in order to be able to obtain them at a competitive and discount price. The choices made must be a little bit of luck as well as precognitive. You don't want to be stuck with 200 count of a new regulated mod only to realize that in two months it is then considered "old technology" or otherwise unpopular; you'll end up with overstock and forced to sell at cost or worse. Today's model of the year will quickly become yesterday's afterthought, especially in today's vaping market.

I recall many conversations with upper management to obtain items I believed would sell well that weren't currently in store. Cartotanks were still a viable juice attachment at the time, yet we only had the bottom of the barrel Smoktech tanks and an extremely expensive pyrex tank in stock ... nothing in between. Cartotanks were not a big selling item for our store. I wanted us to carry the (now defunk but extremely popular online) IBTanked cartotanks, but our management were not able to work out a deal with IBTanked. I'd like to add here that during my first two months of employment at the shop I was credited with selling $3000 in cartotank merchandise, and I was pretty much the only salesperson who attempted to sell them. I like to imagine what I and others could sell if we had IBTanked.

Concerning batteries, we carried Efest, AW, and Sony; as well as some off brand batteries. The Sony seemed to always be sold out, and when we did get a small shipment in they sold out in a weeks time. Again, except for Efest, AW, and the off brands large lots needed to be purchased at a time. Therefore, management was reluctant to purchase 1000 batteries from Samsung or LG suppliers for fear they would become overstock.

As to the case that vape shops are making huge amounts of money, I don't see it. Profit margins on merchandise barely exceeded business costs. About the only item of decent profit were e-liquid sales. Shops that attempt to sell way above retail prices will eventually come to demise as consumers will quickly discover cheaper prices online.

When I began work at the shop, our shop was the second vape store in the city. When I left the shop a year later, there must have been 30 other shops. The competition affected our store's viability in a negative way IMHO, even though I believe we did what we could to be still considered one of the top stores in the city.

 

[ScottP]

This seems to be the one industry (at least on this board) where multiple excuses are given as to why this can't happen. It's not that hard. If I can build coils and calculate the resistance I want and need, I don't see why employees can't learn these things.. I'd imagine many people wanting to work in vape store at least vape, and almost anyone can learn, with the RIGHT TRAINING.

I feel lucky to live near a knowledgeable vape shop and I got so much help and education while I was dual using, but even MORE importantly, THIS is my place to gain knowledge. If an internet forum and some reading can do the trick, I don't get it.

Let me ask you a question, how many hours of videos did you watch to learn what you know now? Now multiply those hours by whatever min wage is now. That is what you are asking vape shops to invest in every employee they hire before even knowing if they are going to stick around long enough for it to be worth it.

I have decided that when I encounter a store without adequate training, I will find a way to talk to the OWNER. It's really on them whether or not safe practices are being explained and taught, and the best way to TELL a store that they are falling down on the job is to talk to the OWNER and let them know why they will not be receiving my patronage in the future. Money talks, and so does talking to the OWNER. They may not listen to ME, but if more folks did this, perhaps there would be a higher standard implemented

That is a good idea. I might do the same...assuming I ever find myself in a B&M again. LOL

 

[stols001]

Do you think every employee that is hired in a pet store knows everything about pets? My point was that if vape stores want to remain in business, they had BETTER start teaching their employees some stuff, just like other boutique owners do. In fact, many of them hire "in bulk" and have an orientation period, with the knowledge that they will be keeping employees who demonstrate skill and interest, and letting go the ones that don't.

My point was simply that the comparison between vape and other boutique stores is perfectly legitimate.... And you may never enter a vape store again, but a lot of potential NEW vapers will do so, and their results with vaping initially may well depend on how they are treated and what items they leave the store with.

I don't think most new vapers go, "Oh gosh, I want to start vaping, I'd better check the internet." I got here due to problems with my vape setup, and while I'm very glad I did, the internet simply isn't a starting point for many vapers.

Anna

 

[Eskie]

If I am shopping for an Espresso machine, I can go to the local B&M who will charge 20%-50% more but will show me the differences in the machines, ask me what type of espresso drinks I normally make & how many, and point out which machine might suit me best, as well as the idiosyncrasies of how to make the best cup with it, and what grinder would be most suited to it. Or.... I can go to Espresso Machines, Coffee Makers & Coffee - Whole Latte Love and get the machine of my choice at an online price.

Unfortunately, a lot of people will walk into a B&M store just to get that hands on experience and information, then go home and order it online. Especially on big ticket items. It's one reason larger retailers had to bite the bullet and price match on site when a customer pulls up the same item on their phone after scanning the bar code and find it for 30% less. Not terribly fair to the store, but that's the marketplace as it exists.

You even run into the issue of sales tax. Depending where you live it might be quite high. If you can find an online retailer who is out of state and not collect that tax, there can be an 8.75% savings right there (in NY, each state is obviously different, and Amazon has started collecting sales taxes for some states).

It is interesting, during the ten years my son needed a fish tank, I would go to specialty fish stores regularly, and never ran into staff who didn't know what they were doing, heck, even at Walmart if we were buying something inexpensive, the employee for that section had decent knowledge. I know, since the fish have to be kept alive, a certain amount of training is needed for this position. But, can you imagine if most specialty stores for anything else operated in this fashion?

Fish stores tend to be different. I went from simple freshwater up to a full on reef tank with my daughter. Specialty shops for that need knowledgeable employees as their inventory (tropical and exotic fish, as well as stuff like corals) are extremely delicate, and need to be kept alive for sale, so an employee with no knowledge will literally kill a business.

Then there's the other side of the big pet superstore. I used a Petco for a bit at the beginning for supplies out of convenience. One time I went with my daughter and thought about getting some little Cory catfish for the freshwater tank. We went up to the tank containing them hanging out on the bottom, which is where they normally are. Except they looked dead. The salesperson goes "No, they're fine! Watch it swim", poked it with a fishnet, only to watch them tumble around with the current the idiot stirred up. My daughter was all of 7 or 8 and just looked at me with her "WTH" face.

When we didn't buy the dead fish, we watched him walk up to another father/daughter pair and proceed to sell them 3 feeder goldfish to them as a "great addition". Great only if you already have a fish that eats them. They didn't. If they survived to get home, they probably didn't live more than 2 days.

However, even though were talking about 15 years ago, there were still a bunch of well established online specialty fish vendors to choose from as well. For them it wasn't only pricing, but the availability of rare fish or corals. Still, their pricing on sea salt mix and delivery instead of carrying a bunch of heavy boxes home also came into the selection process. They also typically had better selections in electronic tank stuff and specialty lighting that the B&M just couldn't keep on hand. But given the nature of that business, I did try to give those B&M shops a chance for my business even if it was a few dollars more just to support them. But if they were asking double, and it wasn't something I was worried about in shipping, then online I went.