FDA FDA calculates costs of lost enjoyment if e-cigarette rules prevent smoking

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oplholik

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"As U.S. health regulators consider what rules to impose on electronic cigarettes, in their tally of costs and benefits they have placed a value on the lost pleasure consumers may suffer if they used the products less or not at all.
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration says in a little-noticed document released alongside its proposals for regulations in April that the projected benefits of the new rules, which also apply to cigars, hookahs and other vapor products, should be cut by 70 percent to account for the deprivation consumers would suffer."

FDA calculates costs of lost enjoyment if e-cigarette rules prevent smoking - chicagotribune.com
 

Jman8

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From the last paragraphs of the article:

In the FDA document published online, the staff economists cite a 2002 paper by health economist Jonathan Gruber of MIT as a source for their 70 percent assessment. After Reuters called the analysis to his attention, Gruber said the fact that a majority of smokers pick up the habit as teenagers and become addicted before they are fully aware of the consequences, meant the FDA was wrong to invoke the "consumer surplus" concept.

"I think this is really a misapplication of my work," Gruber said.

That doesn't bode well for the FDA.
 

Kent C

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From the last paragraphs of the article:



That doesn't bode well for the FDA.

I tend to agree but I didn't see any reference to the "The U.S. Food and Drug Administration says in a little-noticed document released alongside its proposals for regulations in April that the projected benefits of the new rules, which also apply to cigars, hookahs and other vapor products, should be cut by 70 percent to account for the deprivation consumers would suffer."

I'm guessing that this is the 'impact doc' and someone at the Chicago Tribune is reading the 'Economic Impact Analysis' thread :) They do mention the Exec. Order but not by number (which is 12866 issued by Clinton :thumb:) where the impact on small business is taken into consideration. But the FDA states outright in the deeming doc that they think they've complied with both the Executive Order 12866 and the RFA:

pg185:
"The agency believes that this proposed rule would be an economically significant
regulatory action as defined by Executive Order 12866."

pg186:
"The Regulatory Flexibility Act requires agencies to analyze regulatory options that would
minimize any significant impact of a rule on small entities. FDA has determined that this
proposed rule would have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small
entities."

The FDA basically justifies all of this by:

pg187:
"The proposed deeming action differs from most public health regulations in that it is an
enabling regulation. In other words, in addition to directly applying the substantive requirements
of chapter IX of the FD&C Act and its implementing regulations to proposed deemed tobacco
products, it enables FDA to issue further public health regulations related to such products. We
expect that asserting our authority over these tobacco products will enable us to propose further
regulatory action in the future as appropriate, and those actions will have their own costs and
benefits."
 

Jman8

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pg187:
"The proposed deeming action differs from most public health regulations in that it is an
enabling regulation. In other words, in addition to directly applying the substantive requirements
of chapter IX of the FD&C Act and its implementing regulations to proposed deemed tobacco
products, it enables FDA to issue further public health regulations related to such products. We
expect that asserting our authority over these tobacco products will enable us to propose further
regulatory action in the future as appropriate, and those actions will have their own costs and
benefits, unless Congress steps in an prevents us from abusing our authority."

I'm not sure if it was you, Kent, or FDA that left off the red part. But it really needs to be added.
 

NorthOfAtlanta

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pg187:
"The proposed deeming action differs from most public health regulations in that it is an
enabling regulation. In other words, in addition to directly applying the substantive requirements
of chapter IX of the FD&C Act and its implementing regulations to proposed deemed tobacco
products, it enables FDA to issue further public health regulations related to such products. We
expect that asserting our authority over these tobacco products will enable us to propose further
regulatory action in the future as appropriate, and those actions will have their own costs and
benefits."

This is exactly what Zeller was referring to when he said the deeming regulations are a foundational document. We get them deemed and then we can screw with them.

:facepalm::vapor:
 

Kent C

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I'm not sure if it was you, Kent, or FDA that left off the red part. But it really needs to be added.

This is implied by their 'we believe we don't have the authority to change the grandfather date'... even though they mention this in all but one alternative in the impact doc. It's as if they're saying - "write your congressman". lol
 

DC2

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Am I reading this right?

Is the FDA saying that there is a cost to those who quit smoking by switching to electronic cigarettes?
And that cost is an "enjoyment factor" of some sort?

As if electronic cigarettes suck?
As if wheezing, coughing, smelling like crap, and dying of cancer are all super great?

As if flavors that taste good and help keep you from smoking are a depressing thing that will weigh you down in this world?

We have now exceeded the Idiocy Scale, which has no ability to record the intense idiocy of this.
Please tell me I'm not reading this right.
 

Jman8

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We have now exceeded the Idiocy Scale, which has no ability to record the intense idiocy of this.
Please tell me I'm not reading this right.

Honestly, in all the paragraphs of this article, I understood about half of them, or all the ones that don't reference "lost-pleasure factor" as if that is something that is sensible and easy to determine.
 

Kent C

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Honestly, in all the paragraphs of this article, I understood about half of them, or all the ones that don't reference "lost-pleasure factor" as if that is something that is sensible and easy to determine.

A severly poorly written article. The really should have a link to some doc!
 

KODIAK (TM)

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Honestly, in all the paragraphs of this article, I understood about half of them,
You're not alone but as soon as I got to this:

"This makes it a lot harder to justify regulations on cost-benefit grounds," said Dr Stanton Glantz, ... "It will undermine anything they try to do about anything."

I decided to agree with whatever the hell they are talking about. :D
 

aikanae1

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Am I reading this right?

Is the FDA saying that there is a cost to those who quit smoking by switching to electronic cigarettes?
And that cost is an "enjoyment factor" of some sort?

As if electronic cigarettes suck?
As if wheezing, coughing, smelling like crap, and dying of cancer are all super great?

As if flavors that taste good and help keep you from smoking are a depressing thing that will weigh you down in this world?

We have now exceeded the Idiocy Scale, which has no ability to record the intense idiocy of this.
Please tell me I'm not reading this right.

My understanding is that the FDA is assuming that people who switch to ecigs = an interupted cessation attempt. IMO, this is further proof the FDA has no idea what they are regulating or why.

I'd like to see their cost benefit ratio for a drug like Chantix.

Someone should alert the press that Glantz isn't a "medical" anything. He's an engineer so they can print a correction.
 

Oliver

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Am I reading this right?

Is the FDA saying that there is a cost to those who quit smoking by switching to electronic cigarettes?
And that cost is an "enjoyment factor" of some sort?

As if electronic cigarettes suck?
As if wheezing, coughing, smelling like crap, and dying of cancer are all super great?

As if flavors that taste good and help keep you from smoking are a depressing thing that will weigh you down in this world?

We have now exceeded the Idiocy Scale, which has no ability to record the intense idiocy of this.
Please tell me I'm not reading this right.

I think you're precisely correct. Well, in fact I think there's two ways of reading their position:

1. They believe that e-cigarettes are inherently less pleasurable than smoking. If so how was this conclusion arrived at? And is the total consumer surplus debit a subtraction of the pleasure lost from no longer smoking and the pleasure gained by e-cigarette usage (as it surely must be)?

Or

2. They believe that most vapers plan to use e-cigarettes for a short period of time prior to full cessation of nicotine. At this point the "consumer surplus" debit occurs. If this is the belief, the FDA have fundamentally failed to understand harm reduction, and failed to understand vapers' motivations.

For what it's worth, I think the consumer surplus concept is appropriate, although I do have some sympathy with Glantz (never thought I'd say that) in as much that teasing out the value of the consumer surplus from smoking is very, very difficult, and I'm surprised the FDA attempted it at all. I'm guessing they're legally obliged to do so.
 

Jman8

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I think you're precisely correct. Well, in fact I think there's two ways of reading their position:

1. They believe that e-cigarettes are inherently less pleasurable than smoking. If so how was this conclusion arrived at? And is the total consumer surplus debit a subtraction of the pleasure lost from no longer smoking and the pleasure gained by e-cigarette usage (as it surely must be)?

Or

2. They believe that most vapers plan to use e-cigarettes for a short period of time prior to full cessation of nicotine. At this point the "consumer surplus" debit occurs. If this is the belief, the FDA have fundamentally failed to understand harm reduction, and failed to understand vapers' motivations.

Wow, thanks for trying to explain this, though I'm still not understanding it much better. What you are saying makes sense. What article says, not so much. What article is speaking to, in general terms, seems to matter greatly as it could be angle that we vaping enthusiasts tackle the proposed regulations.

It seems very odd that FDA can calculate cost of benefits in deterring smoking WITH eCigs in the picture while also claiming that longterm health effects of eCigs are unknown. Would seem the latter claim would preclude any reasonable assertion on projected costs.

The way I understand the point is:

1 - FDA is claiming that enacting these proposed regulations will obtain a benefit to public health by a) preventing/deterring smoking and b) improving life by depriving current/potential users from seeking an alternative when cessation is achieved instead.

2 - Because reality is that some people do seek an alternative instead of cessation (or refraining from use at all), then FDA acknowledges there is a pleasure experience in the use of alternatives.

3 - So regulations that seek to curtail (via regulations) use of any tobacco product (known to FDA based on deeming said products) leads to a loss in pleasure that FDA acknowledges. IOW, make someone stop smoking (because product is regulated in way to reach for that presumed conclusion) and they have lost the pleasure that comes from smoking.

4 - And because regulation costs money (and generally lots of it) those costs must be calculated over time. Some taxpayer, at some point, might wonder how much these regulations cost to maintain, and FDA needs to provide that info as it stands currently and what FDA anticipates in upcoming years if regulations stay in place as is.

5 - Cost of regulations, according to FDA, is less than the benefits obtained, because really, the price of a life without smoking is easily known(???) and agreed upon by all(???). But everyone can agree that there is a benefit to not smoking, even while most would acknowledge that there is a pleasure factor associated with it.

6 - The lost pleasure factor from not-smoking is equal for each individual. How this assertion is made, no one knows, but it is to be accepted as 'scientific conclusion' cause ya know, FDA is all about the science.

7 - With eCigs, as an example of deeming tobacco product, the benefits on general welfare are unknown. (What FDA has been saying all along up to this point). Therefore, let's ignore this benefit completely, or pretend it can't possibly exist, and focus entirely on benefit of cessation from not-smoking which everyone agrees on. And instead of going with 100% benefit of not-smoking, FDA projects updated figure of 70% benefit from non-smoking due to this alternative existing. How is the 70% number arrived at? Please don't ask such questions. Instead just realize that instead of obtaining 100% benefit from not-smoking at all, the individual will have something less than that because they are still using a tobacco product.

8. And eCig users will also experience less of a loss in pleasure (that comes from smoking) because they are still using tobacco. Whatever pleasure is obtained from continued use of eCigs, within a market that is regulated, equals "cost-surplus." Never in the history of humanity has anyone tried to tie concept of cost-surplus to reduction in benefits leftover after regulations, but FDA is doing that now. Call it crazy or radical, but FDA wants it deemed acceptable.

9. If deemed acceptable, then the cost of regulating eCigs is really a no brainer, because magically the costs will always be less than the benefit of regulating eCigs which pertain to cessation of smoking.

For this to be better understood, please refrain entirely from understanding:
- FDA's role in preventing cessation. Please ignore any notion that regulations could lead to more use of tobacco products.
- how dual users play into this where "lost-pleasure" concept is not applicable. If unable to ignore the dual user, then treat them only as hardcore smoker that is denying all benefits that come from cessation, and are equal in cost to public health as all other smokers.
- how high costing regulations can, and often do, lead to underground markets that bypass the high costs of doing business in a regulated market.

I do have some sympathy with Glantz (never thought I'd say that)

Your honor, I'd like the preceding quote stricken from the record as it makes this person appear temporarily insane.
 

RosaJ

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I'm reading the posts and I give some of you an A+ for trying to make sense out of something totally irrational. Some of us here try to exercise our mental abilities giving the "powers-that-be" the benefit of the doubt and try to figure out if maybe they have a point. Kudos to you!

However, what the FDA is being credited for does not make a lick of sense in a scientific or mathematical way. It makes it sound that some pundits currently running the FDA have supernatural powers that we lowly humans could never grasp, therefore they feed this nonsense to the unsuspecting masses and they all stare like the proverbial deer staring into an oncoming high beamed vehicle. Then before the masses' brains explode they decide that since they pay taxes that pay for these pundits to come up with all this pseudo science, they will just accept whatever the all-knowing and infallible FDA says. After all, the masses couldn't possibly take that much time to try to figure it out because they have to go to bed early to be able to get up the next day and pay more taxes to pay the pundits to do the thinking for them.

Please pass the koolaid, I need to take 3 advils...
 

AgentAnia

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"FDA calculates the costs of lost enjoyment..."? I'm sorry, this makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Enjoyment: a feeling of pleasure caused by doing or experiencing something you like.

How do you attach a dollar value to a feeling, or lack thereof? I'm calling this FDA analysis specious and the emperor barenaked.
 

twgbonehead

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I think you guys have it backwards;

What the FDA is saying is that the benefits from increased regulation and limited supply are countered by the costs (of people not being able to enjoy higher-end e-cigarettes). This is why the benefit DROPS by 70%.

The FDA is saying that consumer choice will be severely limited, and these limitations will cause a loss of enjoyment for people unable to get quality gear and liquids.
 

RosaJ

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"FDA calculates the costs of lost enjoyment..."? I'm sorry, this makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.



How do you attach a dollar value to a feeling, or lack thereof? I'm calling this FDA analysis specious and the emperor barenaked.

Maybe they watched too many courtroom tv episodes and they want to apply the "pain and suffering" equation to it. Who knows! I need to space out for a while so I'm going to watch some "Baby Boo Boo" on tv and hope my brain degrades enough to be able to make sense of things... (Sarcasm)
 

AgentAnia

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Maybe they watched too many courtroom tv episodes and they want to apply the "pain and suffering" equation to it. Who knows! I need to space out for a while so I'm going to watch some "Baby Boo Boo" on tv and hope my brain degrades enough to be able to make sense of things... (Sarcasm)

Me, I'm off to work on a jigsaw puzzle. Maybe that'll help me fit together the puzzling pieces of the FDA deemings....
 
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