You assume that it is a proven fact that diacetyl has actually harmed any vapers. It is decidedly not.
FDA regulations...
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I don't believe that's what I said. It did however cause quite a stir. In fact it's still being used by the media today to demonize vaping.
I see Black Market as meaning an alternative supply chain. I never thought that automatically meant contaminated products. More likely (at worst) diluted products. I see as more of a danger the mech/hybrid and battery safety issues- people buying mechs who normally wouldn't be (like myself) and not being educated on battery safety.
The liver,lungs,stomach,small and large intestines and skin are all essentially filters.
The only difference being they are optimized for a particular function. Pg is can be taken topically,orally
and apparently inhaled in the form of vapor. I wouldn't recommend inhaling it out of the bottle
straight into the lungs though.
It's interesting to note that when one tries a new food item the first thing one
does is to smell it.
My wife has the nose in our household. "Hey,honey doesthis milk smell ok to you?"
And then there's this.
Federal Food and Drugs Act of 1906
One of the many regulations governing the manufacturing of consumable goods
that has been on the books in one form or another for a long time.
"AN ACT For preventing the manufacture, sale, or transportation of adulterated or misbranded or poisonous or deleterious foods, drugs, medicines, and liquors, and for regulating traffic therein, and for other purposes."
Black market or not it wouldn't be a good idea to poison your customers. I personally
believe black market products e-liquid would be of exceptional quality as one would
have to deliberately screw it up to make it bad. The one reason the FDA couldn't shut
the industry down is because of laws like these. They couldn't find anything of any
immediate danger or imminent harm in the product. If there was any evidence at
all that vaping was causing harm they wouldn't need deeming to shut our little Kool Ade
stand down.
Regards
Mike
I've long thought that the whole "adulterants in unregulated eliquid" argument to be a total red herring.
Anything wrong with our eliquid is instantly detectable.
1. Too high a nicotine concentration: There have been some threads dealing with this over the years. One large vendor was actually dropped as an approved ECF supplier. He's still in business, but my guess he's doing about 5% of what he was doing before, thanks to the force of our marketplace. The point is that victims of this guy instantly knew something was wrong, came here and got answers, and that was the end of the matter. No one was harmed.
2. Too low a nicotine concentration: You'd know thanks to no throat hit plus an otherwise unexplained craving for nicotine/cigarette. No harm done.
3. Viral and bacterial adulterants in PG and VG: PG is a powerful germicide. I suspect that is why most of us don't get colds anywhere as near as often as the general population. And I suspect that is why some of us with incipient COPD have the symptoms recede with time: the PG is knocking out chronic infections in our respiratory systems. VG is also something of a germicide, although not as powerful as PG. So, the idea of PG and VG being the bearers of the Awful Ickies doesn't make sense to me: any germs in PG or VG are dead.
4. Other adulterants in PG and VG: I suspect that any chemical nasty that could hurt us would be detectable by taste or smell. After all, chemical adulterants that can cause harm have to be both fairly volatile and miscible in PG and VG, and thus detectable. And I can't think of any metal that's miscible in PG or VG, os you'd see those as scum at the top or bottom of eliquids. I may be wrong on this point. Perhaps some biochemist will come along and correct me.
5. Adulterated flavorings: A couple of months ago, we had Br'er Rat come stay with us. I have no idea when he moved in, but now Br'er Rat has gone to meet his Maker, thanks to one of those gigantic rat traps you can buy on amazon. The spring was so strong, I had to use a vise to set it. (No, I didn't use one of those more humane "trap and release" devices: I figure if you're a rat, you've got it coming to you.) When I cleaned out his nest, I kept a couple pellets of his "used rat food," if you get my drift.
Just for grins, I let those pellets dry out, then mashed them into a sort of muddy dust with a mortar and pestle. Then I mixed that into some unflavored 24 mg./ml. eliquid I had sitting around. Most of the glop wouldn't enmisce, but some did, so I filtered the liquid and poured it into an Aspire Nautilus that was due to be cleaned and re-headed anyway.
I'm not going to describe the fllavor: this is a family website. But, believe me, you'd know instantly if there were any rat poops in your eliquid!
Anything wrong with our eliquid is instantly detectable.
1. Too high a nicotine concentration: There have been some threads dealing with this over the years. One large vendor was actually dropped as an approved ECF supplier. He's still in business, but my guess he's doing about 5% of what he was doing before, thanks to the force of our marketplace. The point is that victims of this guy instantly knew something was wrong, came here and got answers, and that was the end of the matter. No one was harmed.
2. Too low a nicotine concentration: You'd know thanks to no throat hit plus an otherwise unexplained craving for nicotine/cigarette. No harm done.
3. Viral and bacterial adulterants in PG and VG: PG is a powerful germicide. I suspect that is why most of us don't get colds anywhere as near as often as the general population. And I suspect that is why some of us with incipient COPD have the symptoms recede with time: the PG is knocking out chronic infections in our respiratory systems. VG is also something of a germicide, although not as powerful as PG. So, the idea of PG and VG being the bearers of the Awful Ickies doesn't make sense to me: any germs in PG or VG are dead.
4. Other adulterants in PG and VG: I suspect that any chemical nasty that could hurt us would be detectable by taste or smell. After all, chemical adulterants that can cause harm have to be both fairly volatile and miscible in PG and VG, and thus detectable. And I can't think of any metal that's miscible in PG or VG, os you'd see those as scum at the top or bottom of eliquids. I may be wrong on this point. Perhaps some biochemist will come along and correct me.
5. Adulterated flavorings: A couple of months ago, we had Br'er Rat come stay with us. I have no idea when he moved in, but now Br'er Rat has gone to meet his Maker, thanks to one of those gigantic rat traps you can buy on amazon. The spring was so strong, I had to use a vise to set it. (No, I didn't use one of those more humane "trap and release" devices: I figure if you're a rat, you've got it coming to you.) When I cleaned out his nest, I kept a couple pellets of his "used rat food," if you get my drift.
Just for grins, I let those pellets dry out, then mashed them into a sort of muddy dust with a mortar and pestle. Then I mixed that into some unflavored 24 mg./ml. eliquid I had sitting around. Most of the glop wouldn't enmisce, but some did, so I filtered the liquid and poured it into an Aspire Nautilus that was due to be cleaned and re-headed anyway.
I'm not going to describe the fllavor: this is a family website. But, believe me, you'd know instantly if there were any rat poops in your eliquid!
Has anyone EVER really made a batch of ejuice in their bathtub? I know that's a reference to Prohibition but it's still a ridiculous term to apply to ejuice. Dollar-store bucket or thrift-store blender maybe ...
Personally I've considered that our entire economy should go underground for at least a while, end government taxation and power, plus many other influences.
My understanding is that the bad alcohol sold during prohibition was cut with compounds like solvents that might resemble alcohol in taste and effect. There is no corollary to e-liquids unless the govt bans pg and VG.
If one were to mix up liquor in a bathtub it would be quite safe since alcohol is an antiseptic. But wait! Isn't PG an antiseptic too? Don't confuse the issue with the facts...
Propaganda pervades our industry and this forum...
I figured it couldn't be any worse than clam or lobster or bacon or some of those other horrid flavors from the Dark Ages of vaping. And I was right. It was about as bad as those.
I did pull apart that Nautilus Aspire and thoroughly cleaned all the parts (alcohol in an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner, but not the vinyl grommet). It's back in use. The head parts got the same bath. I haven't given the head a new coil yet. But I will someday.
New cotton for sure! 
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And here I would have automatically assumed that clam or lobster would have to somehow be better than that. Live and learn.
Not really. Besides, the "Ambrosia of Rat Poo" was much milder and only somewhat detectable.
I love shrimp and lobster! I just don't like eliquids made from those flavors.
Maybe you didn't use enough (or have enough on hand). Sorta like asking for an extra flavor shot when ordering.
[QUOTE="Just for grins, I let those pellets dry out, then mashed them into a sort of muddy dust with a mortar and pestle. Then I mixed that into some unflavored 24 mg./ml. eliquid I had sitting around. Most of the glop wouldn't enmisce, but some did, so I filtered the liquid and poured it into an Aspire Nautilus that was due to be cleaned and re-headed anyway.
I'm not going to describe the fllavor: this is a family website. But, believe me, you'd know instantly if there were any rat poops in your eliquid![/QUOTE]
*runs screaming into the night*
I'm not going to describe the fllavor: this is a family website. But, believe me, you'd know instantly if there were any rat poops in your eliquid![/QUOTE]
*runs screaming into the night*
The best thing about a black market is, The Children have equal access to the goodsFDA creating a defacto ban will likely make it easier for teens to get bootleg e-juice
FDA, put that in your pipe and smoke it!
Actually, if I ever had to buy on the black market I would probably have to ask a teen where it's located.
@retired1 I have thought over the implications of a black market e-cig
economy and have come to the conclusion that unless the government
puts severe restrictions on obtaining PG/VG,flavorings and nicotine our
fears of for lack of a better word,rot gut juice would be mostly unfounded.
The mark up for juice as we all know is quite high and the raw ingredients
are easily obtainable. No one would be making their own PG/VG or flavorings.
Nicotine from India and China would be available. I personally do not have any
worries about purity. The process of extracting nicotine is designed to extract
the nicotine and filter out other stuff. The end result is almost pure nicotine.
One would have to add contaminants at the end of the process to adulterate
it.
I can think of no reason why anyone would sell anything other than e-liquid
as we know it. Substitute ingredients would probably cost more. Vapers would
not tolerate sub-standard product. Black market producers would have quality
in mind as a incentive to buy their product. After all e-liquid is incredibly easy
and safe to make as it is. Measure and mix. That's it. Your done. There is no
preparation process for the ingredients. No cooking. No refrigeration required.
No weird chemistry.
When people talk of this wild west scenario I often wonder what on Earth
do people think will be put into the juice and more importantly why would
anyone use anything other than what is used to make e-liquid in the first
place? I's interesting to note that with thousands of mom and pops making
and selling thousands of liters of e-liquids with no apparent harm to he general
public why would anyone assume a black market would change any of that?
What do you think all these closed down mom and pops will be doing in the future?
Regards
Mike
Mostly agree. On the other hand I know not to use oil based flavorings. I imagine even the smallest newest mom and pop operation knows that, and flavorings marketed specifically for vaping are easily available. Joe down the road probably doesn't know about that. And he might go to Walmart to get his flavorings. I remember someone posting here a year or so back who had made his own juice with olive oil because he couldn't afford to buy any juice until payday. So Joe gets his olive oil and Walmart flavoring, and sells the juice to kids who don't know any more than he does. When his customers start getting sick he might move up to industrial grade PG or VG.
Might be OK but it would make me nervous.
Yes, some day, some year that might happen. In the meantime 3,000 Americans die each year from food poisoning and another 100,000 are hospitalized for that. So if you are nervous about a potential for eLiquid poisoning, you surely don't risk DIY cooking, do you?
And then there are the shop owners, who worked hard to build their businesses. Some of them may be making juice now, they have loyal customers. I see the potential black market as an intimate affair. Maybe some folks get together and have a little club. Game board nights. card night, maybe even a reading club. Local informal vape meets, where there is a will there is a way.
Maybe I get together with my neighbor and find out he didn't prep, he has kids and doesn't want concentrated nic in his house. I can't say I blame him. Maybe somebody has planned to help him keep on vaping, having no kids of their own.
Anybody who shares juice, equipment, or even helps somebody out by giving them an atomizer and building it for them till they get it will be the black market.
Some of our stockpiles are rather encompassing, it really doesn't cost that much to overstock a bit. If things don't change for the better there is a lot of stuff sitting out there in little piles, things will find their way into someones hand who needs them, maybe some of us will make a few bucks along the way, nothing wrong with that. It might actually be fun for some of us
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