FDA to propose rule on ecigarettes Monday 4-28-2014

[deansdad]

Paige,
You're a "young-un" right? <G>.
I say that because you apparently STILL believe that words actually have meanings. Statements like "...the term tobacco product means...."
Logic, common sense, and even an above average ability to comprehend the English language have absolutely NO relevance to the current discussion.
You simply must remember we're talking about lawyers writing law here - what would this world come to if any of it actually made sense?

Kidding aside, while I share the concerns about vape being "officially" labeled "tobacco product" (opens the door to banning use under "no tobacco products" rules already in place), the rest of it may be a blessing in disguise. The proposed regs are, for the most part pretty benign and once in place the "pressure" will be off the Feds to make rules.
Given the pace at which our sorry excuse for "representative" functions, hopefully it will be a long time before anything else happens.

 

[Bridget63]

It seems to me that E-cigarette Forum is in the best position to take a more proactive stand re: the FDA rulemaking. The “Call to Action” is great, but it’s not enough to fight the FDA rulemaking, as well as ignorant statements made by the news media and politicians about the dangers of vaping. The following steps could be taken:
1. ONLINE PETITION that members can sign that supports the use of e-cigs by adults. This petition could be referenced and linked to by anyone.

2. FACT SHEET stating only facts - such as the number of poisonings of children by other products is far greater than the number of poisonings by e-liquid. CDC has these statistics. And the fact that adults like sweets too. Sweet e-juices do not equate to marketing to children. For example, children aren’t buying peppermint schnapps, honey bourbons and birthday cake flavored vodka.

3. TALKING POINTS that people can attach to emails to the FDA rulemaking, politicians and news media. For example, when “they” say the industry is targeting children with the flavored juices. Just ask them – “Do you like ice cream, or cake or cookies or chocolate? Are you a minor? It is a FACT that adults like sweets too. If the e-cig industry is targeting children, then so is the liquor industry with honey bourbons, peppermint schnapps and vodkas flavored like birthday cake and marshmallows.

4. HEALTH STUDY DEPOSITORY - E-cigarette Forum should be a repository for a national health study of its members. I’m not asking the Forum to do any analysis or processing; just be the repository of information collected from your members. Some college statistics clas, math class or computer class can analyze the data. The questionnaire/survey asking about an e-cig user’s health pre & post vaping could piggy back on the current survey. It would be posted online; members would fill it out and e-cigarette Forum would collect the raw data. Opponents of e-cigarettes keep saying there is no data proving that e-cigs help smokers stop smoking, but there are thousands of testimonials just waiting to be heard.

5. OTHER SURVEYS – like the current one. Use the power of the internet to organize & inform millions of people.

 

[e30holmes]

I wasn't about to read all 29 pages about this topic but I do have one point to make out. Most of us do not use an "e-cig" most of us use a PV, aka personal vaporizer. The PV does not resemble a cigarette or "e-cig" besides the similar appearance of vapor to smoke....is it all possible to break this fda "e-cig" problem down by that one fact? The simple fact that a PV is not purely used to get a nic fix for us x-smokers should make it difficult to pass any bans on a PV. My second point is they simply can't ban VG fluid or PG fluid cosidering its maney uses or for that fact VG or PG based flavor's. Its simply impossible, they would have to go after just about everyone in the food market and the "essential oils" therapy market including Clubs, bar's, bowling alley's, party stores and entertainment company's. They all use a "vaporizer"on a regular basis its just called a "fog maker". Soooo I guess I have a diy life coming soon and a miniature personal fog maker if they try and ban most of the general market?!??!!

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[e30holmes]

Also make note they cannot ban a simple battery or a piece of wire or some aluminum or steel tubing that we all know we can use to make a personal vaporizer. Radio Shack will be getting a lot of my business if they ban the stuff I'll just make a PV myself.

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[CES]

It seems to me that E-cigarette Forum is in the best position to take a more proactive stand re: the FDA rulemaking. The “Call to Action” is great, but it’s not enough to fight the FDA rulemaking, as well as ignorant statements made by the news media and politicians about the dangers of vaping. The following steps could be taken:
1. ONLINE PETITION that members can sign that supports the use of e-cigs by adults. This petition could be referenced and linked to by anyone.

2. FACT SHEET stating only facts - such as the number of poisonings of children by other products is far greater than the number of poisonings by e-liquid. CDC has these statistics. And the fact that adults like sweets too. Sweet e-juices do not equate to marketing to children. For example, children aren’t buying peppermint schnapps, honey bourbons and birthday cake flavored vodka.

3. TALKING POINTS that people can attach to emails to the FDA rulemaking, politicians and news media. For example, when “they” say the industry is targeting children with the flavored juices. Just ask them – “Do you like ice cream, or cake or cookies or chocolate? Are you a minor? It is a FACT that adults like sweets too. If the e-cig industry is targeting children, then so is the liquor industry with honey bourbons, peppermint schnapps and vodkas flavored like birthday cake and marshmallows.

4. HEALTH STUDY DEPOSITORY - E-cigarette Forum should be a repository for a national health study of its members. I’m not asking the Forum to do any analysis or processing; just be the repository of information collected from your members. Some college statistics clas, math class or computer class can analyze the data. The questionnaire/survey asking about an e-cig user’s health pre & post vaping could piggy back on the current survey. It would be posted online; members would fill it out and e-cigarette Forum would collect the raw data. Opponents of e-cigarettes keep saying there is no data proving that e-cigs help smokers stop smoking, but there are thousands of testimonials just waiting to be heard.

5. OTHER SURVEYS – like the current one. Use the power of the internet to organize & inform millions of people.

Very nice first post Bridget. welcome to ECF.


Your suggestions are good. ECF does have a "library" which has some of the data, and has done surveys. I agree that a well-done, published survey is a powerful tool. I'm ambivalent about petitions. We haven't yet gained a thing from any petitons so far.

CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association is the go-to organization to find the research and data about vaping, talking points as well as downloadable and printable items and testamonials about vaping success stories. The i'm proof movement is another potentially powerful group.

The trick with testimonials and user data is that it has to be written up an published in a peer reviwed journal to even begin to 'count'..and even what exists has often been ignored so far. Dr. Constantine Farsalinos just publised the results of a massive survey that could provide very important information to use as we try to have our voices heard.

 

[Wow1420]

Paige,
You're a "young-un" right? <G>.
I say that because you apparently STILL believe that words actually have meanings. Statements like "...the term tobacco product means...."
Logic, common sense, and even an above average ability to comprehend the English language have absolutely NO relevance to the current discussion.
You simply must remember we're talking about lawyers writing law here - what would this world come to if any of it actually made sense?

Kidding aside, while I share the concerns about vape being "officially" labeled "tobacco product" (opens the door to banning use under "no tobacco products" rules already in place), the rest of it may be a blessing in disguise. The proposed regs are, for the most part pretty benign and once in place the "pressure" will be off the Feds to make rules.
Given the pace at which our sorry excuse for "representative" functions, hopefully it will be a long time before anything else happens.

The requirement for manufacturers to to submit "substantial equivalence" or new product applications for ALL e-cig products before the end of the 2 year grace period is hardly benign.
See Mowgli's earlier post http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ettes-monday-4-28-2014-a-14.html#post12945971 for a well written explanation of this requirement.

 

[bosun]

I believe the Arab world has a saying about this:
"Once the camel gets its nose in the tent, the rest soon follows".

 

[tj99959]

Paige,
You're a "young-un" right? <G>.
I say that because you apparently STILL believe that words actually have meanings. Statements like "...the term tobacco product means...."
Logic, common sense, and even an above average ability to comprehend the English language have absolutely NO relevance to the current discussion.
You simply must remember we're talking about lawyers writing law here - what would this world come to if any of it actually made sense?

Kidding aside, while I share the concerns about vape being "officially" labeled "tobacco product" (opens the door to banning use under "no tobacco products" rules already in place), the rest of it may be a blessing in disguise. The proposed regs are, for the most part pretty benign and once in place the "pressure" will be off the Feds to make rules.
Given the pace at which our sorry excuse for "representative" functions, hopefully it will be a long time before anything else happens.

This is how benign they are.

E-liquid fees:

$2500 Filing fee
$1500 fee per ingredient listed (if you leave one off, denied)
$$ Lawyer fees

So in a nutshell. Lets take Pluid for example since we have no clue what flavors the mad scientist Murdock Ruml uses.

Pluid ingredients (this is not the real ingredients):
VG: $1500
PG: $1500
Nicotine 6mg: $1500
Cucumber: $1500
Caramel: $1500
Corn syrup: $1500 (its in caramel flavoring)
Butterscotch: $1500
Ethyl Alc: $1500 (its in butterscotch)
Attorney fees: $3000, this is a guess

so Pluid at 6mg would cost roughly $15000.00

This has to be done for every nicotine level so 4 levels would cost roughly: $60,000.00

And that's just one flavor. So if a company makes 50 flavors, they would be looking at a bill of $3,000,000.00 to get them approved.

There are a lot of different ways to collect taxes, and this one is gonna cost us baby!

If it was me, I would only make one flavor and call it

List of ingredients would be;
PG
VG
nicotine.
and you would be on your own for what else you wanted in it.

 

[Worzel]

So, we are talking $1,500 per ingredient, but what if the ingredients are already FDA approved? Glycerine, PG, Flavor (already approved), the colors in the flavor (FD&C red, FD&C yellow, etc). All that is really left is the nicotine. So a workaround may be to sell unflavored nicotine eliquid, and customers add flavoring. What is to stop a place like Wizard labs from selling their DIY flavoring if the flavors themselves do not contain nicotine? Or Lorann Oils? Pull them off the shelves at Walmart because vapers may be using it? Grannies would be stuck with chocolate and vanilla frosting, instead of lemon?

What about zero nicotine e liquid?

Honestly, I wouldn't even bring up PV or mods. In this country, anything that is said can be used against someone, and if the FDA is still calling our stuff "e cigarettes," then let them! Their lack of insight, and lack of actual research of the vaping industry will someday come back and bite them!


Sent from my bird in a moist little package

 

[tj99959]

So, we are talking $1,500 per ingredient, but what if the ingredients are already FDA approved? Glycerine, PG, Flavor (already approved), the colors in the flavor (FD&C red, FD&C yellow, etc). All that is really left is the nicotine. So a workaround may be to sell unflavored nicotine eliquid, and customers add flavoring. What is to stop a place like Wizard labs from selling their DIY flavoring if the flavors themselves do not contain nicotine? Or Lorann Oils? Pull them off the shelves at Walmart because vapers may be using it? Grannies would be stuck with chocolate and vanilla frosting, instead of lemon?

What about zero nicotine e liquid?

Honestly, I wouldn't even bring up PV or mods. In this country, anything that is said can be used against someone, and if the FDA is still calling our stuff "e cigarettes," then let them! Their lack of insight, and lack of actual research of the vaping industry will someday come back and bite them!


Sent from my bird in a moist little package

Yes, and they keep approving the same ingerdient over .. and over .. and over. Quite the scam .... wouldn't you say!

 

[Worzel]

Yes, and they keep approving the same ingerdient over .. and over .. and over. Quite the scam .... wouldn't you say!

So, if it were me, I would submit the nicotine, and leave out the rest. And when they say "Where is the rest of it?" I would just say "Already approved, thank you!" and lawyer up.
So, do vendors send in samples of their e liquid and equipment to be evaluated by the FDA? What do they do with the stuff after they are done? Do they send it back to the vendor, or do they open a superstore of their own?


Sent from my bird in a moist little package

 

[tj99959]

So, if it were me, I would submit the nicotine, and leave out the rest. And when they say "Where is the rest of it?" I would just say "Already approved, thank you!" and lawyer up.
So, do vendors send in samples of their e liquid and equipment to be evaluated by the FDA? What do they do with the stuff after they are done? Do they send it back to the vendor, or do they open a superstore of their own?



Sent from my bird in a moist little package

So how many vendors have to get that same FDA approved nicotine approved???????

 

[heavyaether]

i think everyone should watch this

 

[fortytoo27]

Im not too worried about vaping regulations as far as gear and juice go. Unless they regulate nicotine itself the juices will always be available, at worst vendors might have to sell them as novelty items, incense, collectibles, whatever. Basically anything not for human consumption. The ingredients are so innocuous supply-restricting regulation is pretty much impossible.

As for gear, if you use mechs, that's basically a hardware hack-- good luck regulating that. And batteries aren't going anywhere either.


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[Worzel]

As for gear, if you use mechs, that's basically a hardware hack-- good luck regulating that. And batteries aren't going anywhere either.


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And they already sell that stuff on Eb--. If these regulations actually do stick, I see vaping going the way of the cigalike or mechanical. But this is a proposal. It may be passed, or parts of it may not be passed. As I said before, they stated that they have no scientific proof that vaping is good or bad. Someone is going to call them out. It is already known they do not have a good track record. Vaping is too young to go by statistics right now. If vapers end up in the hospital, or worse, who is to say that prior tobacco use wasn't to blame? Now, if it were nonsmokers (never one cigarette) who piced up vaping, showing severe health problems that can be directly linked to vaping, I can see an issue. Vaping even has doctors picking sides, yet admitting they don't know yet. Yes, we are, in a way, guinea pigs, but how else are we going to make heads or tails with vaping?




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