FDA to regulate e-cig as tobacco
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Is there someone typing? Because all I see is a blurry screen. Maybe some gibberish.
I didn't mean that the taxes would lower the prices, I meant that the price would lower as an incentive to get smokers to switch to this "wonderful safe alternative, so we're making it way cheaper on cigs so that maybe you tailpipe smokers can save some money AND quit(switch)." Or maybe as a "Hey, we're officially FDA legal now!" sale. Not at all implying an inverse tax ratio.
I didn't mean that the taxes would lower the prices, I meant that the price would lower as an incentive to get smokers to switch to this "wonderful safe alternative, so we're making it way cheaper on cigs so that maybe you tailpipe smokers can save some money AND quit(switch)." Or maybe as a "Hey, we're officially FDA legal now!" sale. Not at all implying an inverse tax ratio.
That is not how I understand the situation...
My understanding is that they can tax anything, including electronic cigarettes, anytime they want.
All that is needed is to write the bill and pass the legislation.
And this ruling does not change that in any way.
Mr. Godshall has spoken a number of times about how that process works.
And he has always said that there isn't enough money to be made to start taxing electronic cigarettes yet.
The cost of putting together a tax structure and enforcement methodology is not enough to justify the income.
Surely that will change in the future, but the latest ruling in no way affects any of that.
At least that was my understanding.
No, but ALL tobacco products are taxed. Until this ruling, ecigs were not tobacco products, and were not liable to taxes. The FDA doesn't levy taxes, state and federal governments do, but they tend to only tax certain products, tobacco being one of the primary ones. Now that the FDA has opened ecigs up to taxation and regulation, the state and feds will certainly tax them. Something they didn't previously do.
That is not how I understand the situation...
My understanding is that they can tax anything, including electronic cigarettes, anytime they want.
All that is needed is to write the bill and pass the legislation.
And this ruling does not change that in any way.
Mr. Godshall has spoken a number of times about how that process works.
And he has always said that there isn't enough money to be made to start taxing electronic cigarettes yet.
The cost of putting together a tax structure and enforcement methodology is not enough to justify the income.
Surely that will change in the future, but the latest ruling in no way affects any of that.
At least that was my understanding.
Sure, they can tax anything they want, whenever they want. But, have you ever heard of a state taxing an ecig prior to this ruling?
Have you ever heard of any tobacco product in any state that is currently not taxed?
Now that ecigs are tobacco products, they will be taxed. The tax structure and enforcement will be minimal, all states have to do is add the words ecig into the existing tax laws for tobacco products. It will be up to the seller to collect and pay the taxes, failure to do so will result in criminal penalties. It may be difficult for the states to enforce, but the onus will still be on the seller.
The first change will be taxes, at the state level. I would expect that at least one U.S. state will have a tax in effect within 60 days. 50 states within a year. My prediction.
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I have no doubt of that, but I don't expect the tax rates to be exhorbitant...
Tobacco products are basically supposed to be taxed in relation to the harm they are believed to cause.
And because of that, electronic cigarettes should be taxed at rates comparable to snuff and snus.
I assume these are the current Federal Excise Taxes...
TTBGov Tax and Fee Rates
Code:
Tobacco Products 1000 units Pack of 20
Small Cigarettes $50.33 $1.01
Large Cigarettes $105.69 $2.11
Small Cigars $50.33 $1.01
Tobacco Products 1 lb. Tin or Pouch
Pipe Tobacco $2.8311 $0.1769
Chewing Tobacco $0.5033 $0.0315
Snuff $1.51 $0.0944
Roll-your-own Tobacco $24.78 $1.5488That doesn't mean they won't do something outrageous and without justification.
But it will be up to all of us to fight to make sure everyone is, at the very least, properly educated.
But my point is that this ruling, in my opinion anyway, doesn't really change the game.
I don't see how you can say it will put vendors out of business if it is taxed jlarson, we the consumer will be paying those taxes not the vendors, the vendors will be the ones collecting those taxes from us the consumers and handing it over to the Feds & State, in no way will it hurt the vendor financially the way I see this, it will ad another line on their spreadsheet and another check they will have to cut to uncle Sam, that's about it. Just about everything is taxed in the retail world and always will be.
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Wow - so much negatively and name calling none the less! Name calling! What is this, grade school at the very least High School? C'mon folks, clearly we're all adults here. Can this discussion not be done so with civility and respect?
This is a forum. We're all here for a similar cause. You cannot force your opinion as being the only rational viable choice as no one here knows for sure what exactly will happen (aside of the extremely high probability that at least SOME sort of tax will come into effect).
C'mon guys, we're all in this together - keep ignorant childish comments away from these threads.
mwa - I do not know for sure what J meant for sure, but to speculate... I believe that once these taxes go into effect, no doubt the price of e-cig/juice goes up thus causing less and less people to purchase as many product as before (untaxed) and depending on the level of taxation, this could cause some of the little guys to receive less business yada yada and eventually will no longer be able to keep up costs and have to shut down. Two Cents
This is a forum. We're all here for a similar cause. You cannot force your opinion as being the only rational viable choice as no one here knows for sure what exactly will happen (aside of the extremely high probability that at least SOME sort of tax will come into effect).
C'mon guys, we're all in this together - keep ignorant childish comments away from these threads.
mwa - I do not know for sure what J meant for sure, but to speculate... I believe that once these taxes go into effect, no doubt the price of e-cig/juice goes up thus causing less and less people to purchase as many product as before (untaxed) and depending on the level of taxation, this could cause some of the little guys to receive less business yada yada and eventually will no longer be able to keep up costs and have to shut down. Two Cents
I'm new here and just coming up to speed, I tend to rely more on the posts of those that have been fighting these battles for a while rather than the doomsayers. Firstly, this should be no surprise to anyone. FDA had only two options, appeal their case to the Supreme Court which would likely not have even seen the case, after a unanimous decision of the Appeals Court (DC) or accept that court's decision to reclassify as tobacco products. Their deadline to appeal was Monday, so....
Also note, many are saying that the FDA has now classified e-cigs as a tobacco product. Incorrect. They stated intent to do so. There's still a process ahead before they are indeed classified as such, not that there's doubt they'll be able to do so, but that will take time too.
The way they do that and the wording they use will leave open areas for possible actions of the various groups that have interest in how that's accomplished and that will also take time and effort. Not that they'd publicly disclose this, but they really screwed up in their effort to have them classified as drug delivery devices. They didn't have their ducks lined up in a row and basically had a premature ejaculation. I believe they will tread more surely and measured now in how they now move forward with this. There's still much for us to fight for, this is just the beginning of round two, but we scored a ko in round one instead of being counted out for the count. Kudos to all that participated in that. I think we're all going to need to do more walking and less talking to see the best possible outcome.
Also note, many are saying that the FDA has now classified e-cigs as a tobacco product. Incorrect. They stated intent to do so. There's still a process ahead before they are indeed classified as such, not that there's doubt they'll be able to do so, but that will take time too.
The way they do that and the wording they use will leave open areas for possible actions of the various groups that have interest in how that's accomplished and that will also take time and effort. Not that they'd publicly disclose this, but they really screwed up in their effort to have them classified as drug delivery devices. They didn't have their ducks lined up in a row and basically had a premature ejaculation. I believe they will tread more surely and measured now in how they now move forward with this. There's still much for us to fight for, this is just the beginning of round two, but we scored a ko in round one instead of being counted out for the count. Kudos to all that participated in that. I think we're all going to need to do more walking and less talking to see the best possible outcome.
That is not how I understand the situation...
My understanding is that they can tax anything, including electronic cigarettes, anytime they want.
All that is needed is to write the bill and pass the legislation.
And this ruling does not change that in any way.
That is certainly true. Ever take a close look at your phone bill? There are a gazillion taxes buried in there. If you purchase any alcoholic beverages, taxes are built in. There are luxury taxes on a variety of items, and often they do not show up as a line item on your receipt. They are applied on the manufacturing or wholesale level, so they get built into your retail price.
An FDA PANEL said banning menthol would be a good idea, doesn't mean it will ever happen. They are already being sued:
FDA Being Sued By Tobacco Companies Over Pending Menthol Cigarette Ban | Daily Health Report
Discussing this issue on another thread in the new members forum, a more likely outcome was proposed: Menthols will cost more and be taxed at a higher rate than non menthols. MORE TAXES! THE STATES WILL LOVE THAT!
Menthol analogs are a 20 BILLION dollar industry. BT isn't going to let a ban happen.
BTW, I was a menthol smoker.
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Sure - if we lived in a vacuum and no one was advocating for e-cigs.
What people keep forgetting is that, unlike with what happened to cigarettes, where smokers were so brainwashed into believing they were weak minded addicts who had no right to fight for smoking so they just rolled over and took it, there is a dedicated group of e-cigarette advocates who believe in these devices and know they are life savers and have been on the front lines fighting to keep them legal, affordable, effective and available.
If you think that after 2 years of fighting this war that we are going to be so stupid or lackadaisical to look at this one battle as the whole victory, you are sorely mistaken. We have been living this every day and we know the players and we know the weapons and tactics of the enemy. We aren't about to take our guns and go home. We know we still have future battles of reduced harm/modified risk status, attempts at flavor restrictions, unreasonable tax proposals and indoor use bans on both the state and federal levels. None of that is just going to be left to chance after all of the work we did to get to this point.
Give us a little freaking credit??
And if one more person makes an ignorant, uneducated comment about e-cigarettes and the Pact Act, I will REALLY lose it! Read the damn thing and stop making assumptions!
/rant
Kristin hun, I know how you feel. This thread has drove me to drink... heavily... tonight, and fortunately that's put me in a pretty damn good mood, so I'm content to chill and let the ignorance slide, for now. I've done my best to inform the masses as to how things work, how they're going to continue to work, and what's probably gonna happen, but noooooooo, I'm stuck with the pessimist society. It's like a train wreck, every time I try to stop, and look away... there's another explosion that turns me into a 16 year old that just can't stop staring.
Yes - Tennessee had legislators already working on it before Monday and Minnesota started taxing them as OTP last July.
It's just that everyone keeps acting like those of us who have been working so hard are just going to pack up our gear and go home and all of these terrible things are going to come to pass without resistence.
We are still here and still fighting, folks - please don't forget that. And we will still need your support!!
We are still here and still fighting, folks - please don't forget that. And we will still need your support!!
Absolutely Kristin, you have stated it very well as usual. Everyone needs to sit back, take a breath and really allow themselves to take in and appreciate what we have accomplished thus far. Collectively we have backed down the friggin' FDA for chrissakes - that's no small potatoes. The exceptional work of the Sottera legal team, the concerted efforts of Drs. Siegel, Nitzken, Radu, Whit, Whelan and others, the tireless work of Bill Godshall and all of us - this is truly a grassroots, consumer advocacy victory of enormous proportion, especially given the extremely toxic and financially corrupted environment we have all come to know too well that is the Anti-Smoking movement. Please, allow yourselves to feel good, feel hopeful and feel proud - you all deserve it. And we need to feel good in order to shore up our collective strength for the battles ahead. It is not a 'crime' to feel optimistic, nor is it being naive - it is easy to be negative and fatalistic, that requires no strength, no fortitude and certainly no creativity. We need to enjoy our momentous victory, feel proud and encouraged and more importantly, emboldened to fight on..............but right now, just for today....relax, soak in some victory......you derserve it....and you will need it if you plan on making the long haul. Thanks again to Everyone.....I am so grateful I get to continue vaping....and again thank you Kristin.
This just keeps getting better and better. Guess I missed a couple of pages.
States can levy any kind of tax on anything they want. It doesn't have to be tobacco. They increased tax on luxury items. They increased tax on soft drinks. They could have put a hefty tax on e-cigarettes at any time - it never mattered what the FDA classified them as.
Again - the level of tax is supposed to be directly related to the level of health risk. That is the justification they use for "sin taxes." That is why CASAA is fighting irrational and unjustifiable tax increases on low-risk smokeless tobacco products and will also fight unjustifiably high tax proposals on e-cigarettes.
This is what advocacy, activism and lobbying is for.
The only way all of this doom and gloom will happen is if vapers roll over and take it. I suggest people who are concerned about this join CASAA, donate time and/or money and be a part of the solution instead of just whining.
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Thank you for the positive comments guys - you don't know how invaluable your support has been over the past years. This activism gig is often thankless, time-consuming work and knowing we have people like you behind us lifts us back up and motivates us to keep going. We couldn't do it without you! 
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