Flavorings-Related Lung Disease

[okielady]

Please be careful what you add to your liquid. My mother has this disease and it is not something you want to end up with.
Popcorn flavorings seem to be the biggest culprit but all flavorings have the potential to become irritants in the lungs and cause the scarring that causes this disease.

NIOSH Topic: Flavorings-Related Lung Disease: Exposures to Flavoring Chemicals | CDC/NIOSH

Flavorings are often complex mixtures of natural and manmade substances. The Food and Drug Administration evaluates flavoring ingredients to determine whether they are "generally recognized as safe" (GRAS) to be eaten. Even if they are safe to eat, these ingredients might still be harmful to breathe in the forms and amounts to which food and chemical industry workers may be exposed. Given the complexity of flavorings mixtures, and the lack of health data for many of the component materials, identifying the relative contributions of individual substances to causing flavoring-induced lung disease is a difficult challenge. As noted in the NIOSH Alert, Preventing Lung Disease in Workers Who Use or Make Flavorings, the flavorings industry has estimated that over a thousand flavoring ingredients have the potential to be respiratory hazards due to possible volatility and irritant properties (alpha, beta-unsaturated aldehydes and ketones, aliphatic aldehydes, aliphatic carboxylic acids, aliphatic amines, and aliphatic aromatic thiols and sulfides).

 

[Kurt]

So besides avoiding diacetyl, which Lorann's claims is not in their flavors, what do you suggest? Short of running GC-MS on flavors and juices, and comparing compounds found with a list of known problematic compounds, I am not sure what we should or even can do. Not use flavors? Are there more exhaustive lists?

And do we know if flavorart or Capella uses diacetyl or any other problem compounds?

Thanks for finding this!

 

[halfevildruid]

I have written Wilton's and gotten assurance of no diacetyl in products they make. They have a really tasty butter flavor.

 

[Scottes]

FlavourArt uses Diacetyl in some flavors. The thread is around via search, and they're listed in the ejuice calculator.

 

[kristin]

Those chemicals listed are known irritants? Are they carcinogens? Are they present in great enough amounts to be considered a hazard?

People having issues seem to be exposed to a more concentrated form of the ingredients (same as workplace asbestos) than the diluted amounts in e-liquids?

 

[Kurt]

Those chemicals listed are known irritants? Are they carcinogens? Are they present in great enough amounts to be considered a hazard?

People having issues seem to be exposed to a more concentrated form of the ingredients (same as workplace asbestos) than the diluted amounts in e-liquids?

The diacetyl (DA) issue was the only one I had ever heard about, and I believe I recall that it was a solid powder. Here is wiki:

Diacetyl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wiki says it was vapor. Seems US is encouraging the reduced usage of it, but not outright banning. Many US Cos are removing it. Of course the EU says its great and we should smother everything in it. No safety issues at all. Codex. Gotta love it.

 

[kinabaloo]

This is an area where more research is needed. Not necessarily a big task, as much could initially be done by paper research.

There is an additional factor - flavorings that are safe in food are not necessarily safe to vape.

The reason is that vaping involves, er, vaping. This means that the flavoring needs to be vapable - that is, it will vaporise and not become a dry residue to slowly burn on the atomiser coil. (See the 'elephant in the room' thread for more on this).

Most flavorings are probably going to be found ok, but there will be problematic ones (and problematic additives). Citric acid springs to mind (fine in food, not a good idea in e-liquid).

ps: yes, I know flavorings may be heated to a high temperature in cooking; but don't assume that that has necessarily been studied in any depth - and besides, any decomposition products would not be being directly inhaled.

 

[Kurt]

Which explains flavourart. I'm going to avoid anything buttery/custurdy/eggy/toffeey (is that a word?) from them for the time being. Perhaps their vapor heaven line is without DA...not likely, they specifically say follows EU guidelines. Perhaps they could divulge which do not have DA.

 

[kinabaloo]

To be fair, the EU are still looking into it.

But to the extent it is not banned, it is not banned as a flavoring, not expecting anyone to be vaping it into the lungs. (I would avoid vaping diacetyl, btw).

This is why 'food safe' is only a start. 'Food safe' does not equal 'vaping safe'; this is an issue that really needs to be addressed. As I've said so many times before, better the suppliers do so now than wait for a media hype storm down the line (and that may not be far off).

As for DIYers, just remember that LorAns and similar are designed for food, not vaping. When the market is big enough, a company like LorAns might look through their product line and form a special subset for vaping; until someone looks into it, there is a possible risk here, even if small.

Home test for dry residue; this would not be conclusive of safety, but would rule out burning dry residues at least. Heat some flavoring on a teaspoon (take care to insulate the handle) until it has 'all' evaporated and check for a dry residue. I suggested setting up a shared databse of results we can all check some 6 months ago. But it never happened. Ignore it and it will come to bite us one day.

And to those that would attack the messenger, I say this: that saying these things is to support vaping; to do otherwise is to be negligent, if not culpable. By doing nothing we're more or less handing over ammunition to those who could regulate vaping out of effective existence. Press suppliers to address it. Push CASAA to press it too. Do it not just for yourself, or even for all of us, but for all the potential vapers who could be denied the chance of switching from smoking to vaping in the future.

 

[Kurt]

Most excellent advice and comments, kin! Could not agree more. We need to start getting info into what compounds exactly are in these flavorings. Suddenly we have a very important and very HUGE undertaking, but I've an idea.

Suggestion for everyone:

1. Pick your favorite flavor. Everyone has their own current favorite. Pick one.

2. If it is DIY, ID the flavorings you used, ie Lorann's Pralines and Cream. If it was made by a vendor, call them up and ask them what the flavors are. Ensure them you have no intention of duplicating it for profit.

3. Start googling. We want chemical names for the flavor compounds. When you get them ( or IF you get them), see if there are wiki pages on each compound, or something similar.

4. Post info. Try to find the types of compounds listed in okielady's OP. Aldehyde names generally end in "-al". Ketones end in "-one". Acids end in "-ic acid" or "ate" if its the salt of the acid. Alcohols end in "-ol". Esters end in "ate". Hydrocarbons end in "-ane" or "-ene" (hope we dont have any of those).

This way you will at least have info on what you like to vape the most, and I think we could make headway on this. There may be need for better thread organization, or perhaps a separate forum where each flavor is its own thread. This may turn out to be more important than nicotine content, in terms of our safety. And if the FDA sees that we are trying to intelligently police ourselves, it could be viewed as favorable to our cause. I see this as very positive.

Also, I noted that esters were not in the list of suspects. Those were all aldehydes and ketones, and I would NEVER want to vape a,b-unsat aldehydes or ketones (monomers for polymers and paint vehicles). Aliphatic acids could be in non-veggie glycerin, since it is made from animal fats. Might be why some cannot use CVS or walmart glycerin...it makes them a bit sick. I haven't tried it but I have some.

Oh, and I get dibs on butter.

 

[kinabaloo]

Two current sources that list ingredients with some measure of noting actual and potentially unsuitable constituents:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rs-color-coded-complete-ingredients-list.html

and perhaps best of all:

http://www.exogenesis.co.uk/Loranne1.htm

An updatable / extendable form of Exogenesis' 'database' (spreadsheet?) would be ideal.

Determining what the 'artificial flavoring' is exactly might be tricky. A dry residue test result for each wuld be nice though, at least for those that pass all the preliminary checks, such as no colorings.

Exo's spreadsheet iindicates clearly the best choices among the LorAnn flavorings for vaping use, and is worth looking at by any DIYer.

 

[Scottes]

An updatable / extendable form of Exogenesis' 'database' (spreadsheet?) would be ideal.

Most everything known/suspected to be of concern is listed in Scubabatdan's EJuice Calculator, for all of the most popular flavoring companies. Dan and I added a lot of info.

Hmm, one thing that is probably missing is some things that are known to be OK, like "Company X does not use diacetyl in any of their flavorings." Some of this is scattered around the forum.

So it's not complete.

 

[kinabaloo]

Most everything known/suspected to be of concern is listed in Scubabatdan's EJuice Calculator, for all of the most popular flavoring companies. Dan and I added a lot of info.

Hmm, one thing that is probably missing is some things that are known to be OK, like "Company X does not use diacetyl in any of their flavorings." Some of this is scattered around the forum.

So it's not complete.

Unfortunately I dont have the software to view Scubabatdan's EJuice Calculator - and that will apply to some other people too.

Food safe is not the same as vape safe.
Exo already suggests only about 20% of LorAnn's should be considered safely (no colors; and usefully, no oil based ones) vapable. Whether there are any still in that list that might be of concern, we don't know.

 

[Scottes]

Microsoft's Excel Viewer is available for free, as is OpenOffice. The first can view the information, the second can manipulate it.

 

[Angela]

Which explains flavourart. I'm going to avoid anything buttery/custurdy/eggy/toffeey (is that a word?) from them for the time being. Perhaps their vapor heaven line is without DA...not likely, they specifically say follows EU guidelines. Perhaps they could divulge which do not have DA.

Even before they started their eliquid range, they were receiving enquiries from vapers asking whether they sed diacetyl, so they kindly posted a comprehensive list on their website listing not only which flavours contained it, but in what quantities.

So far, I have found their flavourings so incredibly strong that I am only using a very small % of flavouring in the mix (Iwas using 10-20% LorAnns, but I often only use 1% FlavourArt!), so the amount of diacetyl that would be inhaled is so minute. (The figures quoted on the website are for the concentrated flavourings)

Yes, I might be concerned if I were using a flavour day in/day out, but all problems that have thus far been discovered have been as a result of full concentrates over very long periods of time, so I'll take my chances with such a small proportion s heavily diluted every now and again. (Just like I'll take my chances with the possibility of trace carcinogens in e-cig cartridges )

 

[Scottes]

Angela, have you tried any of the non-tobacco flavors? I use their Espresso at 25%, my wife uses their Tiramisu at 30-35%. Other threads have mentioned thier tobacco flavors to be extremely strong, but I haven't heard about any of the non-tobacco flavors.

 

[Angela]

Yes, I have!

Now, I am not scientifically minded at all (in that I can never remember the details for 10 minutes afterwards), but my comprehension skills are pretty good and I remember someone very knowledgable in these matters explaining how because of high notes and low notes in flavours, depending on what you're using, you can actually end up with LESS of the flavour you are looking for if you use more!

I have certainly found this to be the case with the FlavourArt flavourings, and at very low percentages, I have found the true flavour to really come through.

However, I haven't tried either their Espresso or Tiramisu

 

[Scottes]

I remember someone very knowledgable in these matters explaining how because of high notes and low notes in flavours, depending on what you're using, you can actually end up with LESS of the flavour you are looking for if you use more!

If you could *ever* find that I would be extremely grateful. I'd love to read it.

 

[MHR7331]

Oh great... so does anyone know what exactly is in Dekang liquid? lol

 

[Angela]

If you could *ever* find that I would be extremely grateful. I'd love to read it.

If I find it, will do!