For The Ladies

[closetsmokr]

All that is fine and true, but, feminism came about out of the need to accomplish the goals I mentioned above. And, yes, it accomplished many of those goals, but still fights for some of those rights today. It was and is about a lot more than men holding doors open. The original intention and current underlying purpose is not to undermine God or the Bible, it is to protect and women from crimes, neglect, and violation. There are varying degrees of feminism, as is the case with many things. However, without feminism, it is unknown for how long women would have been unable to vote, own property, legally defend themselves from abuse and harrassment, be free from enslavement, and so on. I am not questioning the Bible, just wondered if the consensus was against all levels and degrees of feminism.

 

[LisaLisa]

All that is fine and true, but, feminism came about out of the need to accomplish the goals I mentioned above. And, yes, it accomplished many of those goals, but still fights for some of those rights today. It was and is about a lot more than men holding doors open. The original intention and current underlying purpose is not to undermine God or the Bible, it is to protect and women from crimes, neglect, and violation. There are varying degrees of feminism, as is the case with many things. However, without feminism, it is unknown for how long women would have been unable to vote, own property, legally defend themselves from abuse and harrassment, be free from enslavement, and so on. I am not questioning the Bible, just wondered if the consensus was against all levels and degrees of feminism.

All people should be treated the same as far as the law goes. But, in the home, the husband is the head of the household.

The feminism movement of the 1960's, which is what I was referring to, accomplished nothing other then undermining the proper relationship of women and mothers in the home, devaluing the honorable job of wives and mothers, and destroying the family arrangement. Like I said, nothing good came from it, in fact it damaged society beyond repair.

 

[closetsmokr]

All people should be treated the same as far as the law goes. But, in the home, the husband is the head of the household.

The feminism movement of the 1960's, which is what I was referring to, accomplished nothing other then undermining the proper relationship of women and mothers in the home, devaluing the honorable job of wives and mothers, and destroying the family arrangement. Like I said, nothing good came from it, in fact it damaged society beyond repair.

1963 Equal Pay Act
1964 Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964
1967 Executive Order 11375
I don't know, I still see where good came from feminism, even in the sixties. I have read posts on this forum in the past that talk about how true Christians cannot be "turned" away from God unless they choose to do so. I don't see how feminism on its own would have been able to succeed in that either. The husband/wife interpersonal relationship was never called into question. Nor were religious views. Again, there are varying degrees of feminism, but the central positions were set up to protect and keep women from being oppressed. As Christians, those views can coexist with our religious perspective.

 

[blondeambition3]

Yea! And I would like to add that my husband STILL takes out the trash (and I wait & allow him do it!)

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was rich!!!!!

 

[angelique510]

You ladies should read these two books:
Amazon.com: Domestic Tranquility: A Brief Against Feminism (9780965320863): F. Carolyn Graglia: Books
and by the great Phyllis Schlafly
Amazon.com: Feminist Fantasies (9781890626464): Phyllis Schlafly: Books

They are both excellent explanations on the damage that feminism has done to women and to families. Kind of an expose on the lies feminism has taught us.

If you are interested (and want a good laugh) here is the Dear Abby I commented on Friends Rally To Support Boy After His Attempted Suicide - Yahoo! News My comment was posted Feb 11 at 5:10am PST

~A

 

[blondeambition3]

I'd just like to add the 'Biblical summary' of the roles Husbands & Wives bring to the table in Marriage.

The responsibilities of husband and wife


At creation God assigned differing roles to man and woman. Man was created to work and keep the garden (Genesis 2:15). Woman was designed to help man in his tasks (Genesis 2:18). They each had two very distinct and differing roles. However, they were both created in God’s image (Genesis 1:27), and therefore, their roles were equal in value, but differing in function.

At creation, everything was good. These roles were assigned before the fall. After the fall, Adam continued to provide for his family (Genesis 3:17), and Eve would be the bearer and nurturer of the children (Genesis 3:16, 20). The punishments because of the fall did not dictate their roles; it simply complicated the already existing roles. When Adam and Eve hid in the garden, Adam was called upon first by God, even though Eve had committed the sin first (Genesis 3:9). Clearly God placed Adam as the leader, but Adam chose to be passive. Eve had the role of helper, but had violated it, taking leadership (Genesis 3:6). The roles were reversed during the fall.

The pattern of biblical roles within marriage continued throughout the Old Testament. In the New Testament, the roles did not change, but were given a special emphasis that male and female were still equal in the eyes of God (Galatians 3:28), although they function differently within the home and church.

In the New Testament, the roles of husband and wife are symbolic of Christ and His church. Christian men are to lovingly lay down their lives for their wives (Ephesians 5:25). They still maintain leadership, but this must be servant leadership. Husbands are not to demand obedience, but by their humility, guide. They are to honor their wives (1 Peter 3:7). It is clear that biblically, women are not seen as second class citizens, but equal with their husbands and as “heirs with [men] in the grace of life” (1 Peter 3:7). The biblical roles for men continue through the Old Testament and into the New Testament: man is meant to lead and lovingly serve his wife.

The bible exalts womanhood in the home, and places great value on it (Titus 2, Proverbs 31). Woman’s role from creation has not changed. In Titus 2, Paul commends women to love their husbands and children (Titus 2:4). The older women were to teach the younger women in the church how to better take care of their families, including taking care of the home (v.5). Women are to follow their husband’s leadership with respect, choosing to submit to that leadership (Titus 2:5, 1 Peter 5:23). 1 Peter states that when wives submit to their husband’s leadership, they are doing it as service to God (5:22). A woman can be a great blessing and help to her husband, just as Eve was to Adam at the beginning of creation. Scripture does not forbid a woman working outside of the home. Some women did appear to have businesses (Proverbs 31), but a woman’s first priority is to her husband, family, and home life.

Men and women were created with distinct abilities to fulfill these biblical roles, and when husbands and wives follow the biblical pattern within the home, they bring glory to God as a picture of Christ and His church.

"Godly" Men don't beat their wives or prevent them from receiving adequate wages, or to vote... I could go on & on here.. lol. Feminism paved nothing for Women that God wouldn't have paved for them Himself. Take it from a former feminist... God's ways are always more excellent than secular humanism's ways...

 

[angelique510]

Feminism paved nothing for Women that God wouldn't have paved for them Himself. Take it from a former feminist... God's ways are always more excellent than secular humanism's ways...

That's good preaching, Sister!! And I'm so glad you (and I) got better

~A

 

[LisaLisa]

I'd just like to add the 'Biblical summary' of the roles Husbands & Wives bring to the table in Marriage.

The responsibilities of husband and wife


At creation God assigned differing roles to man and woman. Man was created to work and keep the garden (Genesis 2:15). Woman was designed to help man in his tasks (Genesis 2:18). They each had two very distinct and differing roles. However, they were both created in God’s image (Genesis 1:27), and therefore, their roles were equal in value, but differing in function.

At creation, everything was good. These roles were assigned before the fall. After the fall, Adam continued to provide for his family (Genesis 3:17), and Eve would be the bearer and nurturer of the children (Genesis 3:16, 20). The punishments because of the fall did not dictate their roles; it simply complicated the already existing roles. When Adam and Eve hid in the garden, Adam was called upon first by God, even though Eve had committed the sin first (Genesis 3:9). Clearly God placed Adam as the leader, but Adam chose to be passive. Eve had the role of helper, but had violated it, taking leadership (Genesis 3:6). The roles were reversed during the fall.

The pattern of biblical roles within marriage continued throughout the Old Testament. In the New Testament, the roles did not change, but were given a special emphasis that male and female were still equal in the eyes of God (Galatians 3:28), although they function differently within the home and church.

In the New Testament, the roles of husband and wife are symbolic of Christ and His church. Christian men are to lovingly lay down their lives for their wives (Ephesians 5:25). They still maintain leadership, but this must be servant leadership. Husbands are not to demand obedience, but by their humility, guide. They are to honor their wives (1 Peter 3:7). It is clear that biblically, women are not seen as second class citizens, but equal with their husbands and as “heirs with [men] in the grace of life” (1 Peter 3:7). The biblical roles for men continue through the Old Testament and into the New Testament: man is meant to lead and lovingly serve his wife.

The bible exalts womanhood in the home, and places great value on it (Titus 2, Proverbs 31). Woman’s role from creation has not changed. In Titus 2, Paul commends women to love their husbands and children (Titus 2:4). The older women were to teach the younger women in the church how to better take care of their families, including taking care of the home (v.5). Women are to follow their husband’s leadership with respect, choosing to submit to that leadership (Titus 2:5, 1 Peter 5:23). 1 Peter states that when wives submit to their husband’s leadership, they are doing it as service to God (5:22). A woman can be a great blessing and help to her husband, just as Eve was to Adam at the beginning of creation. Scripture does not forbid a woman working outside of the home. Some women did appear to have businesses (Proverbs 31), but a woman’s first priority is to her husband, family, and home life.

Men and women were created with distinct abilities to fulfill these biblical roles, and when husbands and wives follow the biblical pattern within the home, they bring glory to God as a picture of Christ and His church.

"Godly" Men don't beat their wives or prevent them from receiving adequate wages, or to vote... I could go on & on here.. lol. Feminism paved nothing for Women that God wouldn't have paved for them Himself. Take it from a former feminist... God's ways are always more excellent than secular humanism's ways...

AMEN to that! God's way is always the best way! The world can say anything that they want, but God's perfect plan.......remains perfect!

 

[blondeambition3]

That's good preaching, Sister!! And I'm so glad you (and I) got better

~A

Oh Amen Sister ~A.... Jesus is so good isn't He?

 

[blondeambition3]

AMEN to that! God's way is always the best way! The world can say anything that they want, but God's perfect plan.......remains perfect!

Oh I'll just dance to that one Sister!

 

[Saintscruiser]

That was an awesome article, well worth the read. The bible is the perfect instruction on how a family should operate for the benefit of all members of the family. The husband, wife and children.

Once the womens lib movement came around and took over, society started in a downward spiral. It's been downhill ever since. Just another example of humans taking God's instructions and throwing them out the door, saying "No, I want to do it my way!"

And look at the result.........women flooded the workplace and nobody home to raise the children. They got herded into puppy mill day care centers. Men then had to compete with women for jobs and nobody home to supervise the school age kids when they got home. TV and video games because the new "mom" to keep them busy when they got home from school. Fast food became the new dinner because women didn't have time to cook, no time to clean, help with homework, nurture and guide our children. Every thing was rush rush rush because we just got home from work and were now tired.

Women wanted to go to work, and we did, and now look at the mess we created! Our men don't feel valued, respected and appreciated anymore because we work the same as them now, we have emasculated them to a certain degree by taking away their sole responsibility to provide for their families, which results in marriage problems. More then half marriages end in divorce now, and then the kids are left holding the bag being shuffled from one place to another.

God created the family arrangement, and it was good! It should be that way because that's the only way it works properly! But once again.........people said no to God and created their own disaster.

All these single girls and women having babies, this is out of control and it's bad news!!!!! What is wrong with these women? They have no shame because this is the "new normal"! Just like a working wife and mother has become the "new normal", so is the unwed mother now the new normal too!

To me, it's an abomination...........all of it. In my opinion, and I believe this is also God's, that if you marry, your place now is in the home. Unfortunately, the way society has progressed most couples need 2 incomes to make it. But, we did this to ourselves!

Honor your husband and be a helper to him, but let him lead. Show him respect and appreciation and he will love you even more. I can see this in my own marriage. When I get pushy and bossy, he backs off, feels emasculated, and distances himself from me emotionally. But, when I let him be the "hero", and show him that I need him and appreciate him, I can see that he thrives and it brings us closer together.

We should be the women that God created us to be, and allow our men to be the men that God created them to be.

Well said, Lady L!!!

 

[Saintscruiser]

1963 Equal Pay Act
1964 Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964
1967 Executive Order 11375
I don't know, I still see where good came from feminism, even in the sixties. I have read posts on this forum in the past that talk about how true Christians cannot be "turned" away from God unless they choose to do so. I don't see how feminism on its own would have been able to succeed in that either. The husband/wife interpersonal relationship was never called into question. Nor were religious views. Again, there are varying degrees of feminism, but the central positions were set up to protect and keep women from being oppressed. As Christians, those views can coexist with our religious perspective.

As someone whose birthday is on Women's Suffrage Day, unfortunately, women are in the work field for different reasons and I strongly believe that women should stay home with the children. That is God's plan, not mine, but I agree with Him. If you ladies want to jump on me, that's okay. Unfortunately, I've had to work most of my adult life. It wasn't a choice, it was a necessity. My son was a 'latch key' kid, and I hated it.

I strongly believe in equal pay. When women went into the work field, more and more affairs happened. It's so sad. I know what it's like to rear a child mostly alone in his life. I made stupid errors in judgment. I comfort myself knowing that I wasn't a Christian at the time. BUT, right is right and wrong is never right.

The man is head of household. Sometimes I don't like that either. I've had to learn to be submissive, and it hasn't always been easy. I'm learning to pick my battles. Things that I would argue over years ago doesn't look important today. Somethings are worth arguing over, especially when you know that what your husband wants to do isn't the way of God. But the sin is on him. Remember Abraham saying that Sarah was his sister and not his wife? She did what he wanted her to do. The sin was laid on Abraham.

Times have changed and one salary isn't enough to make ends meet, unless you are married to a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. Inflation is on the rise. The economy situation is making women go to work, like I said. My mom had to quit high school in the 11th grade to get a job to help put food on their table. The kids suffer.....they always suffer, and that is a tragedy.

 

[closetsmokr]

Well, my whole point was that feminism isn't ALL bad. Personally, I would rather have people working the Feminist Movement, Women's Lib, or whatever you want to call it, because I prefer not go without the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to legal defense, the right to decent health care, the right to not be descriminated against, harrassed, underpaid, enslaved, or oppressed. It is sometimes necessary to put up with some things that aren't to our standards to get some very important things that provide us with beneficial outcomes. We have many of the rights we have today because we started out NOT having them, and the members of such organizations fought for those rights and won. It's too easy for us to forget that sometimes.

As for the damage that has been done to the "family unit" and the way people today view the relationships between husband and wife, parents and children, etc, I don't blame the whole thing on one movement. Sorry, but most of it comes down to other factors, one of which is the diminishing number of Christians. Another is the diminishing number of people who have strong morals and values. It's a very complex situation, and it's going to take a real miracle to get it fixed. But, it starts in the home, and with the adults in the household.

 

[LisaLisa]

Well, my whole point was that feminism isn't ALL bad. Personally, I would rather have people working the Feminist Movement, Women's Lib, or whatever you want to call it, because I prefer not go without the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to legal defense, the right to decent health care, the right to not be descriminated against, harrassed, underpaid, enslaved, or oppressed. It is sometimes necessary to put up with some things that aren't to our standards to get some very important things that provide us with beneficial outcomes. We have many of the rights we have today because we started out NOT having them, and the members of such organizations fought for those rights and won. It's too easy for us to forget that sometimes.

As for the damage that has been done to the "family unit" and the way people today view the relationships between husband and wife, parents and children, etc, I don't blame the whole thing on one movement. Sorry, but most of it comes down to other factors, one of which is the diminishing number of Christians. Another is the diminishing number of people who have strong morals and values. It's a very complex situation, and it's going to take a real miracle to get it fixed. But, it starts in the home, and with the adults in the household.

Like I said before, the womens lib movement of the 60's accomplished NONE of that. Women were not slaves, no oppressed, had the right to education, had the right to vote, had the right to own property, to legal council, had the right to health care, and had the right to work if they wanted to. The movement accomplished NONE of that, I repeat, NONE of that.

What it did was, put the last nail in the coffin as far as our society and family values is concerned. You think it raised up the working wages of women???? I don't think so. What I see is that it brought down the wages of men to match the wages of women, and it did incredible damage to families and society as a whole.

But, this is satan's system, his destruction by design, this is what he wanted, and it worked because humans, once again, were too stupid to see what they were doing to themselves. They wanted "freedom", they called God's provision "oppression" just like adam and eve, and we all know the outcome of that.

Still continues on to this very day, just different set of people.

The only part of your post that I can agree with is that it will take a miracle to fix this giant mess, and that miracle is coming, it's Jesus.

 

[LisaLisa]

As someone whose birthday is on Women's Suffrage Day, unfortunately, women are in the work field for different reasons and I strongly believe that women should stay home with the children. That is God's plan, not mine, but I agree with Him. If you ladies want to jump on me, that's okay. Unfortunately, I've had to work most of my adult life. It wasn't a choice, it was a necessity. My son was a 'latch key' kid, and I hated it.

I strongly believe in equal pay. When women went into the work field, more and more affairs happened. It's so sad. I know what it's like to rear a child mostly alone in his life. I made stupid errors in judgment. I comfort myself knowing that I wasn't a Christian at the time. BUT, right is right and wrong is never right.

The man is head of household. Sometimes I don't like that either. I've had to learn to be submissive, and it hasn't always been easy. I'm learning to pick my battles. Things that I would argue over years ago doesn't look important today. Somethings are worth arguing over, especially when you know that what your husband wants to do isn't the way of God. But the sin is on him. Remember Abraham saying that Sarah was his sister and not his wife? She did what he wanted her to do. The sin was laid on Abraham.

Times have changed and one salary isn't enough to make ends meet, unless you are married to a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. Inflation is on the rise. The economy situation is making women go to work, like I said. My mom had to quit high school in the 11th grade to get a job to help put food on their table. The kids suffer.....they always suffer, and that is a tragedy.

Don't beat yourself up. It's a sad fact that today most women have to work and don't have a choice because most husband's wages are pathetic. Or some women find themselves divorced trying to raise their children by themselves, which is what happened to me. Our society is broken, and we are now victims of a broken system, many of us are left without a choice. This is the result of the women's lib movement of the 60's. Men used to be paid a decent wage and women were honored and valued in the home.

That is not the case today for the most part. So women got what they wanted. They wanted equal pay, they got it, now everyone gets paid peanuts, men and women both unless you're one of the elite few.

 

[closetsmokr]

I am not seeking a debate here, but most of what has been stated about wages and doing damage to families is just factually incorrect. I think it's fine to express opinions about things, but incorrect information being passed as fact is detrimental. Wages for many jobs did increase for women, and that did NOT cause wages for men to decrease! Even today, women in many fields are still paid less than their male peers for doing the same work, but that situation would be even worse if not for the efforts of the time. And, the sixties portion of the feminist movement DID get important legislation passed to prevent sexual harrassment, gender discrimination, continued poor working conditions, and loss of property after divorce. That information can be found in any encyclopedia.

It may be the opinion of others on CV that feminism was the downfall of family, but that is opinion. I just don't agree with, and can't ignore, the spreading of disinformation. As Chritians, we need to take special care in spreading truth and not allowing personal judgements to cloud or skew the facts. God spoke to me personally a long time ago about His dissatisfaction with His children not being totally honest and treating others unkindly, and ever since then, I have been unable to turn a blind eye to it when I see it.

 

[LisaLisa]

I am not seeking a debate here, but most of what has been stated about wages and doing damage to families is just factually incorrect. I think it's fine to express opinions about things, but incorrect information being passed as fact is detrimental. Wages for many jobs did increase for women, and that did NOT cause wages for men to decrease! Even today, women in many fields are still paid less than their male peers for doing the same work, but that situation would be even worse if not for the efforts of the time. And, the sixties portion of the feminist movement DID get important legislation passed to prevent sexual harrassment, gender discrimination, continued poor working conditions, and loss of property after divorce. That information can be found in any encyclopedia.

It may be the opinion of others on CV that feminism was the downfall of family, but that is opinion. I just don't agree with, and can't ignore, the spreading of disinformation. As Chritians, we need to take special care in spreading truth and not allowing personal judgements to cloud or skew the facts. God spoke to me personally a long time ago about His dissatisfaction with His children not being totally honest and treating others unkindly, and ever since then, I have been unable to turn a blind eye to it when I see it.

Who's being dishonest and treating you unkindly? I haven't seen anybody do that here.

Just because you disagree doesn't mean that anyone is being dishonest and treating you unkindly. To claim that against another person, when it's not true, is spreading false witness.

 

[angelique510]

Well, my whole point was that feminism isn't ALL bad. Personally, I would rather have people working the Feminist Movement, Women's Lib, or whatever you want to call it, because I prefer not go without the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to legal defense, the right to decent health care, the right to not be descriminated against, harrassed, underpaid, enslaved, or oppressed.

It is sometimes necessary to put up with some things that aren't to our standards to get some very important things that provide us with beneficial outcomes. We have many of the rights we have today because we started out NOT having them, and the members of such organizations fought for those rights and won.

We are talking about the radical/ modern feminists; the card carrying N.O.W. mentality here. They suffragette movement of the early 20th century was political. Feminism is a cultural phenomenon. When the N.O.W. was formed in 1966, women had been voting for forty-six years. Women could buy property, go to the doctor and hire a lawyer. If by discrimination, you mean women were treated differently then men, women are different than men. Sexual harassment is alive and well today. No one has been a slave in this country since 1865. Both men and women are underpaid in relation to cost of living. I don't know what you mean by oppression. If you mean the things you listed, I have just discounted all of them. So women were not oppressed in the 60s. I believe that the period between the end of WWII and the formation of the N.O.W, women in this country had the best standard of living of any time in history.

The N.O.W.'s goal was to get cultural acceptance for immodesty, promiscuity, lesbianism, and abortion. The wanted to immaculate men; John Wayne types are now considered neanderthals. They wanted to shame housewives out of existence by making them feel unfulfilled and oppressed and society think them freeloaders. They wanted to destroy the institution of marriage by labeling it unnecessary and archaic, and making divorce quick, easy, and acceptable. They wanted women to be treated like men, and now women are no longer treated like ladies and we are sending them to the front lines of wars. The organization has been very successful in their goals.

Even if some good that I cannot see came from the movement, the bad that they have done cannot be excused or encouraged. That is like saying that a pot of soup containing chicken, carrots, onions, salt, pepper, and cyanide is good because there are some good things in it.

Be well,
~A

 

[trukinlady]

I am not seeking a debate here, but most of what has been stated about wages and doing damage to families is just factually incorrect. I think it's fine to express opinions about things, but incorrect information being passed as fact is detrimental. Wages for many jobs did increase for women, and that did NOT cause wages for men to decrease! Even today, women in many fields are still paid less than their male peers for doing the same work, but that situation would be even worse if not for the efforts of the time. And, the sixties portion of the feminist movement DID get important legislation passed to prevent sexual harrassment, gender discrimination, continued poor working conditions, and loss of property after divorce. That information can be found in any encyclopedia.

It may be the opinion of others on CV that feminism was the downfall of family, but that is opinion. I just don't agree with, and can't ignore, the spreading of disinformation. As Christians, we need to take special care in spreading truth and not allowing personal judgements to cloud or skew the facts. God spoke to me personally a long time ago about His dissatisfaction with His children not being totally honest and treating others unkindly, and ever since then, I have been unable to turn a blind eye to it when I see it.

This works both ways. We can respectfully agree to disagree, especially on whether information is "disinformation" or not. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but the Word of God is absolute. What is not absolute is how each of us interprets His Word. It is our responsibility to discern wisely.

Edit: I apologize for not explaining my thoughts fully. (That pesky ADD again! ) See my next post-I'm working on it.

 

[LisaLisa]

That is like saying that a pot of soup containing chicken, carrots, onions, salt, pepper, and cyanide is good because there are some good things in it.

Be well,
~A

Boy, ain't that the truth!!! LOL!!!!!