From CNN.com Today/Eissenberg study with feedback

[kai kane]

Dr. E. – quick question :

I think you have a lot of experience with quantifying the volume of a baseline “puff”.

What is the standard mass flow rate in a single cigarette "puff", as used in testing? Would that be a range then, as users differ?

If you have measures using "SCFM" that would be helpful. I've seen old tests by tobacco corporations at 17cc/sec, but don't know the conversion formula.

kai

 

[Belletrist]

voltaire, that's not necessarily true; after all, we buy blank cartomizers for the KR8. they're off the shelf, and the distributors sell them blank for the customer to fill. precise filling can be done by measuring 1 ml in a syringe and injecting into the stuffing (which is also the way that the prefilleds are filled). also, it should be relatively simple to order a large number of cartos from the same batch (i know that it could be done through V4L, as they have someone in china who could verify that), and test several randomly.

i think that the KR8 is going to be more reliable for 'naive' users, perhaps? it's fool proof, as far as the equipment goes. the length of inhale/etc, well... that's another matter.

i'd also urge any future studies to use manual batteries, regardless of model. there's a lot more user-error with newbies and autos (in my opinion). if the button is pressed, then there's no doubt that there will be heat to the atomizer. if they are inhaling for the number of seconds or whatever prescribed by the study, through the battery, with button depressed, they'll get vape whether they like it or not.

 

[kai kane]

EDIT: Should this be moved to an ejuice thread, legal thread, or? Anyone feel free to PM me on this and i'll delete and repost there. thnx, kai
===========================

"Improved flavor of nicotine gum does not increase abuse liability, but may be associated with enhanced craving reduction." Link

2002: Houtsmuller Elisabeth J; Fant Reginald V; Eissenberg Thomas E; Henningfield Jack E; Stitzer Maxine L

 

[Moriah]

If e-cigs are a placebo: Great! It's getting people off of smoking without giving them physically addictive nicotine. As they don't deliver nicotine, the FDA would have no jurisdiction even if it was classified as a tobacco product. It's the equivalent of SmokeAway -- and it's worked for me! More than two weeks now!

But since the FDA says it does deliver nicotine -- a "high" cartridge delivering close to 50 mcg or 0.05 mg per puff (fairly close to my 0.6mg per cigarette on my old brand and it took me 15 puffs to finish it) -- then the study was flawed.

I did see that the New Zealand study says that the nicotine is delivered later on in the puff so if the users were using small puffs they may not have gotten any nicotine.

 

[Moriah]

Importantly, these results were from two specific products tested under acute conditions in which puff number was controlled. Variability in product design may influence vapour content7 and chronic use and/or more intensive puffing (ie, more puffs, greater puff volume) may influence nicotine delivery. Given these and other factors, there is an ongoing need to evaluate electronic nicotine delivery devices (E-cigarettes). These evaluations should be conducted in a manner that takes into account variability in design (including cartridge nicotine content), examines the effects of user behaviour over time and compares these products to existing methods of delivering therapeutic nicotine safely and effectively.

Guess I should read the entire thread before posting.

I'm glad you addressed the puff volume concern.

Given that the New Zealand studies showed that there was very little nicotine in a 30ml puff, a 60ml puff had a fairly decent amount of nicotine, and the FDA was alarmed at the fact a 100ml puff from most nicotine cartridges contained more nicotine than a 100ml puff off of the Nicotrol inhaler, I can certainly see the results you got coming from people who took very short puffs from the electronic cigarette. I did notice that I take longer puffs on an ecig than I do off of a regular cigarette. As many industry tests have demonstrated, smokers will change the smoking behavior to get the most nicotine out of the cigarette they're given -- longer puffs, covering up vents, smoking closer to the filter, etc. Given time to acclimate to using an e-cigarette, I think most users would figure out the most efficient way to get nicotine from the device.

Part of the reason I was attracted to the e-cigarette as a tool for smoking cessation (I know it is not marketed for such) was the ability to turn the device into a placebo after I had weaned myself down from nicotine. I did experience mild withdrawal effects my first week using the device. Much less than I did with Chantix or cold turkey, but still some withdrawal. Using zero-nicotine liquid (deliberately using it as a placebo) would be an option for me if I craved a cigarette after coming off of nicotine -- and would certainly be better than smoking a cigarette when I had a craving. And I honestly do think it would help.

 

[teissenb]

KK: Wow, that is a blast from the past! I helped design that study in 1997, right before I moved from Johns Hopkins to VCU. I did not collect any of the data. However, I believe that it was funded, at least in part, by the pharma company that made the gum, so I must amend my disclosure: I did work on a project funded by pharma that had something to do with nicotine. Awhile back though, as you can see. That is a good example of an abuse liability study (though a somewhat complex one, with many conditions).

 

[planetofthevapes]

wow, seems to me that there are a lot of lies being throw around in this news report...a lot of trying to scare consumers into thinking that once again something from china will poison and kill them and that it is jut a scam. The FDA never reported seeing diethylene glycol in them to my knowledge...they are just coming up with lies...they just wanted to control and ban ecigs so they can sell the cigarettes that they now have control over. SCAM SCAM SCAM!

I will say this. I know I get nicotine...but I realize the nicotine is not what I am addicted to because I have gone weeks with none and still enjoyed my ecig, not as much (as it wasn't as rewarding and therefore I just forgot to pick it up as much)...but I just absolutely love inhaling the vapor...nuff said. I gave my kissbox to a person I met while selling a trampoline...gave the person a bottle of liquid and an atomizer and a charger and a case (yes, I know, a lot of money to just give away). This person has smoked most of her life and had vaguely heard of e-cigarettes but didn't take the plunge because of safety concerns and monetary start-up cost concerns...she quit that day. She has not picked up a cigarette in 2 weeks. She won't even purchase them. This after years of her boyfriend (now husband) begging her to quit! And it took one small puff on an e-cig to change her mind. I have gotten several thank you calls and now have a new best friend! E-cigs are changing everything and the big wigs don't like it. They know that one day tobacco will phase out (maybe not in our lifetime, but at some point the e-cig will be the cool thing to do)...and it scares them! Oh well!

 

[teissenb]

KK:

An average puff volume for a cigarette smoker is ~40 ml for women, ~50 ml for guys (I am not looking at a reference, this is off the top of my head, hence the vague response). Wait I think I have a paper...yes, 42 ml for women, 55 ml for men (Eissenberg et al., 1999). We don't usually look at the flow rate, but I am sure you can find some data on pubmed.

 

[Territoo]

The FDA never reported seeing diethylene glycol in them to my knowledge...they are just coming up with lies...they just wanted to control and ban ecigs so they can sell the cigarettes that they now have control over. SCAM SCAM SCAM!

Yes they did in their May 2009 study, approx 1% in one out of 18 carts tested.

 

[quovadis]

I have worked with about 30 smokers so far and have successfully help them quit analogs.
None of these people would have quit analogs with a 510 starter kit, and standard liquid on their own.
In fact, the main complaint with standard e cigs is that they don't get a high from the nic. "They can't feel it".
One woman who smokes only after dinner told me that analog cigarettes instantly deliver a buzz, and she did not get that from a standard e-cig and liquid.
This is where equipment plays a role.
I do not believe that low voltage e cigs are an effective tool to stop smokers in the beginning.
I think a 5~6 volt device with up to 30 mg liquids are an effective tool.
I also believe that dripping as opposed to using a standard cart filler is better.
I also believe that a good 801 atomizer that delivers on high voltages is better than any other atomizer out there.

I think the first few weeks smokers turn to vaping, they need to use the correct equipment, and work with someone who can help them find the correct liquid balance that is appropriate for them to satisfy their cravings.

I remember spending a fortune on trial and error before i found my sweet spot.

It's like asking a smoker who smokes camel wides unfiltered, to smoke Marlboro ultra lights for a week...he too will tell you the ultra lights do nothing to satisfy his craving.

 

[enigmabomb]

Hey guys,

I think you should know that the people who put the study on are completely in the pocket of big tobacco. I did lots of research and this is what I came up with: cigarettereviews.org/electronic-cigarettes/are-e-cigarettes-all-smoke-and-mirrors-or-is-virginia-commonwealth-university

Let me know your thoughts.

Josh

 

[enigmabomb]

Also, apologies I can't post a link. I'm not eligible yet apparently, but I think the journalism speaks for itself. Maybe one of you would link it so others could more easily see.

 

[Daifne]

enigmabomb,
Did you read all of this thread before posting that? The doctor who did the study has already talked about that right here in the thread...

 

[kai kane]

Wow, that is a blast from the past! I helped design that study in 1997, right before I moved from Johns Hopkins to VCU. I did not collect any of the data. However, I believe that it was funded, at least in part, by the pharma company that made the gum, so I must amend my disclosure: I did work on a project funded by pharma that had something to do with nicotine. Awhile back though, as you can see. That is a good example of an abuse liability study (though a somewhat complex one, with many conditions).

Dr E -

Ok, ok, so NOW I owe you TWO beers for being cool enough to cop to that! sheesh, I knew this exchange was gonna cost me something! can we get an uncool researcher in here to balance the baseline???

imua! (onward!)
kai

 

[Momof3]

I would say the 510 or kr808 as well. If prefilled carts are an absolute must, I'd say the kr808 w/ no less than 24mg carts. +1 on the manual battery.

 

[kai kane]

KK: An average puff volume for a cigarette smoker is ~40 ml for women, ~50 ml for guys (I am not looking at a reference, this is off the top of my head, hence the vague response). Wait I think I have a paper...yes, 42 ml for women, 55 ml for men (Eissenberg et al., 1999). We don't usually look at the flow rate, but I am sure you can find some data on pubmed.

From wiki (Hawaiian for quick);
Standard cubic feet per minute (SCFM) is the volumetric flow rate of a gas corrected to "standardized" conditions.

i haven't found anything on pubmed yet - so if anyone has SCFM or ACFM flow rates for analogs, please forward here or PM me
mahalos
kai

 

[enigmabomb]

enigmabomb,
Did you read all of this thread before posting that? The doctor who did the study has already talked about that right here in the thread...

It's 44 pages long, I had to skip some parts lol. These threads are so technical. Can anyone link me?

 

[ckc]

It's 44 pages long, I had to skip some parts lol. These threads are so technical. Can anyone link me?

The Dr's posts:-

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/search.php?searchid=3461692

 

[Belletrist]

Momof3... i'd agree, for a study comparing nic intake, i'd include 24 mg or 36 mg. i don't necessarily recommend new vapers start at that as that high "feels" harsh to some newbies, at least on the Kr8, known for throat hit. but i don't really care whether the study subjects have a delicious vape, they don't have to learn to love PG to absorb nic, just choke it down. i consider 18-24 "medium" and 36+ "high", though obviously that's a little arbitrary.

the study on the flavor influencing the abuse liability of nicotine gum is really pretty interesting for me, considering the recent ban on flavored cigs (partially driving my motivation to vape as ordering kreteks from indonesia was tiresome, lol)... though i think that was more of a 'marketing' thing, and cigarettes are more prone to abuse than the gum for other reasons. i hate to think what the FDA will eventually attempt to do with regulating flavored nic juice--but then, there's not much they can do, since vaping is a bit like RYO in that respect. it would suck for some of our awesome juice vendors tho!

 

[Mister]

So can you folks agree on one unmodified device and one marketed cartridge that you are as certain as you can be (without a blood test) delivers nicotine? If you can, I'll get it and see where we can go from there. I can tell you that there is no way an IRB is going to allow device modifications and/or this "dripping" procedure, so it would have to be off-the-shelf stuff. I doubt everyone is going to want to read each person's individual reply here so that may NOT be the way to go -- is there some way to organize your thoughts (perhaps a new thread)?

I think that the KR8 is going to be more reliable for 'naive' users, perhaps? it's fool proof, as far as the equipment goes. the length of inhale/etc, well... that's another matter.

i'd also urge any future studies to use manual batteries, regardless of model. there's a lot more user-error with newbies and autos (in my opinion). if the button is pressed, then there's no doubt that there will be heat to the atomizer. if they are inhaling for the number of seconds or whatever prescribed by the study, through the battery, with button depressed, they'll get vape whether they like it or not.

+1 to the suggestion that KR8 would be more reliable for naiive users. I don't think a 510 should be tested without an experienced vapor on hand to assist in its use. Otherwise there'd be a chance of problems with priming fluid, flooding, and/or testing with insufficient liquid in cartridge. KR8 should, I think, avoid those particular issues for naiive users.

Also +1 for manual batteries, and +1 for a minimum of 24mg carts, with higher being better for naiive users who are unlikely to puff well.

I have no personal experience with KR8s. Belletrist, do you have personal experience with KR8s and some 24 or higher carts from V4L or another respected supplier? If so then perhaps you could recommend a specific kit + cartridges for Dr. Eissenberg to purchase. And then if no one disagrees with the discussion so far and your recommendation, that would stand as a collective suggestion without need for a long thread and discussion.