Just didn't want to have to cite sources from yr+ old threads. Wouldn't know where to look.
Tapatyped
Harvard Eliquid Study Today
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Common sense has no place in this thread , you can't use it in here , it's a total waste of time and besides, you can take it to the bank that the diketone lovers will of course say "but it's rats not humans" LOL.
This thread makes the worst "train wreck" in US history look like a case of spilled milk thats how idiotic it has become .
Even if you had documented proof that was verified and legit there is absolutely no doubt that the same people would be saying "it doesn't prove anything " that is how ridiculously stupid this is , and a good reason why most rational thinking people abandoned this thread long ago.
New people join in and quickly check out because you can't debate people who do not exercise "basic common sense" it does not work .
I like many others find it mind boggling that some can not see the obvious or for that matter , refuse to even consider any other possibility that isn't their own .
Get out now while you can , even when i said more studies need to be done to know anything conclusive which i think is as obvious as obvious gets i was countered with " all conclusions are in and if diketones were in fact troublesome we would know by now because enough time has passed " , no joke .
That is the mindset of what your dealing with , it's as ridiculous as saying the USA and ISIS can learn to live amongst each other we just need to be more accepting , a complete waste of time and effort .
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Judgmental much?
Thought for a second I was in an old Provari thread
Judge the Topic, not the people participating within - it's rude
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Okay, I've followed this discussion of the powder/liquid issue with a modicum of disinterest because it bears striking resemblances to five year-olds having a "did too / did not" argument..
From all the bantering back and forth, I've gleaned this:
- NIOSH determined that diacetyl was the most probable causative agent for the conditions the workers suffered from;
- Combinations of powdered, paste and liquid flavorings were used that contained diacetyl;
- Testing revealed that the liquid and paste forms emitted much more diacetyl than the powder under the same testing conditions;
- The powdered flavoring dust in the factory presented a secondary health risk in it's own right;
- NIOSH was unable to determine the exact causative mechanism for the workers affected and recommended general breathing protection measures for the factory workers at greatest risk of exposure.
The biggest offender was wetted powder. At least in this study.
I tend to favor the powder/dust hypothesis, but I'm not sold on it. There are too many unknowns about other environmental and exposure risks involved to be able to definitively say what caused the workers to be affected. Occam's Razor is difficult to apply here because there really is no "simplest answer" to be had, other than it is likely that prolonged exposure to multiple forms of diacetyl-containing products were the primary causative agent. Sometimes incidents have very simple causes yet have complex mechanisms leading to the outcome. That may very well be the case here. Without precisely replicating all of the environmental conditions and performing detailed incremental testing for exposure agents and mechanisms, there is no way to know with 100% certainty whether it was the powder or vaporized paste and liquid components that were responsible - or a combination of all of them, or the addition of another unaccounted exposure agent that exacerbated the exposure.
Therefore, I see all this bickering and bantering as attempts to beat a dead horse - when we don't even have a horse to begin with.
This, of course, is just how I see it. I could be completely wrong. I'm okay with that.
Let the bickering resume.
Judgmental much?
Thought for a second I was in an old Provari thread
Judge the Topic, not the people participating within - it's rude
Apparently you must have thought i was quoting your post crxess , just to correct the oversight on your part , i was not .
I already know all too well not to respond or quote your posts because i rarely agree with what you have to say and i know you don't agree with what i have to say which makes things quite simple .
Oh , and please refrain from telling me what i can or can't judge , i will decide that myself thank you very much .
What i said is 100% the truth and if anybody is not convinced just go back and read over the thread it's all there , if it's rude , well then so be it , things aren't always rosy .
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After having a cup of coffee this morning and rereading what i wrote i see how my wording was bad. I should have said "yet it is being said i don't care about smokers because" which is what i meant...not "but I don't care about smokers because"
My wording was bad i admit it and take responsibility for the misunderstanding in that post.
Ya know i truly hope and pray that diketones turn out to be of no concern....i don't want my gut feeling to be right because that would mean others will suffer. I spent too many years smoking and ignoring the warnings...and now i have COPD....lesson learned i don't gamble with my lungs anymore. I really don't want to die on a oxygen machine but the damage cigs have done have probably already sealed that fate...i don't want to take unnecessary risk again with diketones and speed that process up when it's avoidable. Yes, maybe some of us are being overly cautious and sensitive to risk factors...what can i say cigs proved to be a good teacher to learn from.
If i am being overly cautious...this is why. The warnings about cigs were right all along.
If i am being overly cautious...this is why. The warnings about cigs were right all along.
You do not have to be condescending to me,it's awfully annoying.umm no ! we aren't rats and multifocal necrotizing bronchitis is not death. Now i am certain you are trolling me, impossible to have such a low level of comprehension.The link was for other reasons. You know, your hobby horse, " powder vs. vapor " !
Yes it does seem that way from time to time.
I agree with you. The only reason I lean that way (not a statement of 100% fact) is the only references that
directly single out a given form of diacetyl as actually being of concern refer to the powdered form.
There are tons of studies showing the amounts of diacetyl in the air from all three forms. I know the liquid form
emits the most,then paste,then powdered. Nowhere in the studies do they quantify if diacetyl in liquid or paste
form trumps the powdered form in terms of overall harm. They go no where near even attempting to analyze the
issue. That just leaves us to determine what is causing what. If I were to assume that the only thing that maters
is the total amount of diacetyl that is the suspected causative agent then everything else is a moot point. I am
just pointing out what I have found. If I were making this stuff up it would be easy to point that out by referring
to the specific study stating that diacetyl in all forms is equally as dangerous as another. It's implied by omission
of any supporting evidence. They found diacetyl. Lots an lots of diacetyl. I get that. It's only due to personal
experience having used materials that produce unhealthy amounts of dust at the industrial level that tends
to make me lean towards the dust. I understand the health risks dust in large quantities can cause. This
does not mean I am 100% correct-o-mundo. It's just an observation I brought forth to the community in
the hopes of having an objective discussion. I am not trying to rain on someone's parade.
Regards
Mike
Great Post DeAnna
I gave some serious thought as to whether or not I should like it because of the COPD part. That part is just not likable My thoughts on this whole discussion---diketones may be the devil himself. Even the ones that should be able to figure it out could only conclude that it was possible. They ended up saying it was the butter flavor mixture of various things that made up the butter flavor but they were leaning toward the diactyl. (sp)
I am thinking it could be the diketones but that is just one small part of the mix and that is why I have cut way down on ALL flavors and often vape unflavored. We are spending all this time debating this one thing while ALL the others are sliding under our radar.
The words may be and could be tell me that no one really knows. That is another of the wonderful things about vaping. With our smokes we smoked what ever the tobacco companies chose to put in their product. With vaping we can choose what we want in our e-liquid.
Nope. Rude is not permitted.
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What is your "documented proof that was verified and legit" that your trying to convey ?
Thank you for that.
I too have had the misfortune of having something I've posted land completely wrong many, many times over the years. You're in good company.
I have my reservations about diketones as well. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of us taking the measures we can to avoid potential risks. Unlike with tobacco/cigarettes, we have many more options open to us as vapers than "Red Pack or Green Pack".
"People will literally fight to the death to defend their point of view." - Larry Pearson
Those are the words of an instructor of mine. Gang wars, religious wars, ethnic wars, civil wars, domestic arguments, personal conflicts… All based on that simple premise - "my view is the right one." Something that I take into account every day. It gets very easy to understand how people can act when that is understood. It doesn't make what they do to that end justifiable in extreme cases, but it is understandable why they do it.
Hyperbolic much?
Will be nice when position your advocating for gets to documented proof with regards to vaping. That'll be real interesting on the common sense side of things. Then we can start talking like rational beings rather than fear mongerers.
The side that requires evidence and less hyperbolic rhetoric has learned this.
IMO, this is clearly the issue with the diketone free crowd when they espouse notion that everyone else ought to consider their position either consumer wide or industry wide. They simply refuse to back off from that position and instead of being personal concern, vehemently argue that it has to be everyone else's concern. When their non-rational rhetoric is called out, they resort to tactics that would make ANTZ proud.
I routinely say if you wish to vape diketone free, then do so. Free market today allows for this. Be happy with your choice. Be however happy you are with your own version of the precautionary principle. But get into debate about the science that goes beyond your personal concern, and be prepared to battle. Thus far, the anti-diketone crowd shows up very unprepared.
No one has said all conclusions are in. But your use of deception does match well with ANTZ rhetoric. You go boy! While some have said we do have enough time under our belt to see at least some cases, if this were in fact a legitimate issue. Seems your side can't even fathom the idea that this could possibly be the case. Instead it is a) we have zero evidence of it now, b) we need at least 5 more years, preferably 30, and c) then we will know that the anti-diketone crowd was right all along. So be nice and appease our irrational trumped up concerns right now, agree with us that a change needs to happen in the industry with a mandate squarely being on the table, and let's call all this common sense and pro-free market stance.
Would be great to stretch this analogy of which side represents fear mongering, industry terrorizing, vape hating Isis, and which side represents free market loving, pro-capitalist, will not back down among fear mongerers USA.
Something tells me we are cut from the same cloth.........just different ends
My wife and I rarely agree in exactness as I rarely accept absolutes unless proven, but we have made it 42yrs so far without a fatality.
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