Has anybody read this at Totally Wicked?

[kinabaloo]

In another thread I commented how I liked the Ice liquid for having a clean, pure taste with no after/twang; no smokyness or (over) sweetness. The liquid though was a pre-release sample from Decadent Vapers; but I believe the same as Ice unflavored.

There is no peppery taste either (not that I notice anyway, but I grow a range of chillies and use garlic and peppercorns on everything too so perhaps it is there slightly). But I believe the unflavored is without any and all flavorings, just nic and base (PG in my case, which I dilute with VG).

It really tastes of nothing; and surprisingly (as someone who normally likes strong tastes) I like this non-flavor

edit: vaping this morning I realise that there is a taste, of nic; a bit like pepper; that's the nic. Not strong though, so this liquid would be ideal to mix with the widest variety of flavors without the core taste affecting the added flavor.

 

[kinabaloo]

Thanks for doing this Exo. I'm very curious.


I have to say that I don't think that possible (probable?) issues with "inconsistent potency" with any Chinese juice makes me happy that I DIY. I remember reading something about some official report where someone (FDA?) tested several samples and found the nicotine level to be inconsistent with the labeling. (I wish I had more info instead of foggy memory.) I've also read - a rumor I'm sure - that the Chinese use a lower grade of nicotine. Why is their juice always off-colored - tan, "goldish", whatever? Nic-juice should be clear. And I don't like the touch of bitterness that I get with Chinese nic-juice.

I have no such concerns with Blip, Platinum, or EcoPure. I have little info to base this on, but I have faith that these nic-juices are clean, much more pure than any Chinese nic-juice, and of the stated strength.

These comments are rather off-mark in some ways. The 'Chinese' angle you put forward is not justified.

The major Chinese supplier, DeKang, has never had issues of potency or quality. The few samples in the FDA that had a problem were with liquids from a small liquid supplier.

Only in the second half of this year have a few juice retailers moved to create juices based on high-purity nic. Previously, the feeling was that keeping some of the tobacco flavor was what people wanted. But through this forum, for example, it is clear that most people quite quickly prefer no-smoky tastes and the flavors available has increased. The older style liquids also had a deposit problem.

 

[emus]

Found it


Re: TW Newsletter 21st Aug

Postby tinytears » Aug 22nd, '09, 22:45
"The most recent July 09 results state that the nicotine content of the 36mg sample tested was 1.8%" Quote by Tetsab.



Percentage concentration (V/V, W/V, W/W), is very low concentration, or molar concentration oriented

For w/w, both solvent and solute would need to be weighed in the required ratios.

There are 3 basic ways to express concentration: 1) percentages, 2) very low concentrations, and 3) molar concentrations
1) % of concentration can be in V/V, W/W, or W/V

Like most %s, V/V and W/W need to have the same units on top and bottom.
W/V is sort of in the same units; V is mostly water and water’s density is 1 g/mL or 1 kg/L

1.8% (w/w) (weight/weight) of 30ml is certainly 36mg of nicotine, given the testing method limits.

Any math to back up that 1.8% (w/w) to 36mg conclusion?

 

[DVap]

Only in the second half of this year have a few juice retailers moved to create juices based on high-purity nic. Previously, the feeling was that keeping some of the tobacco flavor was what people wanted. But through this forum, for example, it is clear that most people quite quickly prefer no-smoky tastes and the flavors available has increased. The older style liquids also had a deposit problem.

Exactly. My standard vape is a mixture of nothing but PG, VG, Alcohol, and nicotine... a clean taste (if you want to call it a taste), no smokiness.

 

[DVap]

Any math to back up that 1.8% (w/w) to 36mg conclusion?

No math that's valid.

If we look strictly at what is in a 1.8% (w/w) nicotine in PG solution, we will have 1.8 grams of nicotine per 100 grams of juice. The juice will have 1.8 grams of nicotine and 98.2 grams of PG.

Nicotine: density = 1.01
So 1.8 grams of nicotine has a volume of 1.78 mL.

PG: density = 1.036
So 98.2 grams of PG has a volume of 94.79 mL

The volume (nominally, since the can be subtle solute/solvent effects) of a 1.8% (w/w) nicotine/PG mix (containing 1.8 grams nicotine and 98.2 grams of PG... total combined weight 100 g) is 1.78 mL + 94.79 mL = 96.57 mL.

So a 1.8% (w/w) nicotine in PG solution contains 1.8 grams nicotine and 98.2 grams PG. The volume of this solution should be very close to the simplistically calculated 96.57 mL, this means that there are 1.8 grams of nicotine in 96.57 mL of liquid, which puts it at 18.6 mg/mL (on the more commonly used wt/vol basis).

 

[Hellen A. Handbasket]

Just curious... why no flavor? Do you have an opinion on the added flavorings (good/bad) or just not require it?

 

[exogenesis]

That took a bit longer then 20 mins, had a bit of 'interference'.

Looks like one of my (unopened bottle, about 6 months old ) of '36mg' Flavourless
is 29.2 to 29.8 mg/ml.

My opened bottle (but 90% full, about 9 months old) of '36mg' Tobacco
is 35.2 to 35.9 mg/ml.

Titration & method details in spreadsheet:
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/TW36titrate.xls

So some variation then, probable that TW's 'distant' supplier is (or possibly was) a bit variable,
not making any judgement either way.

Might test the other bottles as well, at 2ml, not 5ml cos I realised when I opened
them I really quite like the cherry & banana juice after all.

(edit : I think I like Hellen.
No 'added' flavour to pure nic. + PG = just a slight sweet taste with a peppery overtone & throat-hit)

(edit2: the supplier for Platinum Ice is UK, and known to be the right strength,
if it wasn't PillBox would probably send the boys round )

(edit3: I think the indicator gives a slightly low reading, changing between pH 6.5 & 6.0,
I reckon the titration point is pH 5.5, maybe 2% low = about 1mg/ml low for 36 mg/ml juice)

 

[DVap]

Just curious... why no flavor? Do you have an opinion on the added flavorings (good/bad) or just not require it?

I just don't require it, but I've also not really explored the world of flavorings too much. Perhaps, it's for the better since I've got quite enough bottles, vials, and the such already!

 

[Scottes]

These comments are rather off-mark in some ways. The 'Chinese' angle you put forward is not justified.

The major Chinese supplier, DeKang, has never had issues of potency or quality. The few samples in the FDA that had a problem were with liquids from a small liquid supplier.

OK, good to know, and thanks for clearing that up. I did not intentionally mean to bash all Chinese juice-makers - I was fairly clear that I was running on thin, unconfirmed information. It's good to have this cleared up.


I will say that I have many Dekang pre-made flavored juices, and they all have the same underlying bitterness that I do not get when making my own juice from Blip. I also don't have a single Dekang juice that is clear, yet certainly some of the flavors should be, I would think. I just don't consider the Dekang to be near the quality of Blip + Capella flavoring.

 

[kinabaloo]

Just curious... why no flavor? Do you have an opinion on the added flavorings (good/bad) or just not require it?

I don't have the flavrongs so cannot comment.

Seems strange to like the flavorless Ice, because i'm really into strong flavors normally. I can only taste the nic a little; can't really taste any sweetness (although diluted with VG). I like it; and have been using this for some weeks now.

But I will get around to some flavors sometime. On my coffee percolator I spilled some suagred coffee on the hot plate. I left the stain there because every time it heats up there is this wonderful caramel-coffee aroma. So that's one taste I'd go for

 

[kinabaloo]

OK, good to know, and thanks for clearing that up. I did not intentionally mean to bash all Chinese juice-makers - I was fairly clear that I was running on thin, unconfirmed information. It's good to have this cleared up.


I will say that I have many Dekang pre-made flavored juices, and they all have the same underlying bitterness that I do not get when making my own juice from Blip. I also don't have a single Dekang juice that is clear, yet certainly some of the flavors should be, I would think. I just don't consider the Dekang to be near the quality of Blip + Capella flavoring.

It's just that there has been a gradual sea-change away from tobacco tastes as the market has matured and there are more options.

As we know, tastes vary. Of the premixed flavors I have tried the after-taste was sweet, perhaps a bit nutty, rather than at all bitter; not too bad; but like the pure taste better

I don't know Blip but I do think I'll be using the TW Ice for some time ...

 

[Hellen A. Handbasket]

Interesting, I'll have to explore vaping flavor free. I just wanted to make sure that you were not avoiding flavorings for a reason. Not having to worry about what flavor is in which atomizer would be nice if it is as satisfying. I'll have to get out my zero flavor and give it a whirl.

You guys blow me away with all the info. Love it! Keep up the good work!

(edit : I think I like Hellen.

I like you too Exo *blush*

Kina - Coffee (or Cappuccino) is my favorite. My choice flavor most of the day, right behind a good Menthol. The coffee e-liquid leaves a slight aroma in the air. It is pleasant in the house.

Sorry to step in and go off topic. Thanks guys!

 

[kinabaloo]

That took a bit longer then 20 mins, had a bit of 'interference'.

Looks like one of my (unopened bottle, about 6 months old ) of '36mg' Flavourless
is 29.2 to 29.8 mg/ml.

My opened bottle (but 90% full, about 9 months old) of '36mg' Tobacco
is 35.2 to 35.9 mg/ml.

Titration & method details in spreadsheet:
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/TW36titrate.xls

So some variation then, probable that TW's 'distant' supplier is (or possibly was) a bit variable,
not making any judgement either way.

Might test the other bottles as well, at 2ml, not 5ml cos I realised when I opened
them I really quite like the cherry & banana juice after all.

(edit : I think I like Hellen.
No 'added' flavour to pure nic. + PG = just a slight sweet taste with a peppery overtone & throat-hit)

(edit2: the supplier for Platinum Ice is UK, and known to be the right strength,
if it wasn't PillBox would probably send the boys round )

(edit3: I think the indicator gives a slightly low reading, changing between pH 6.5 & 6.0,
I reckon the titration point is pH 5.5, maybe 2% low = about 1mg/ml low for 36 mg/ml juice)

Exo - nice charts. Shows that the DVap method gives a clear determination

 

[DVap]

Looks like one of my (unopened bottle, about 6 months old ) of '36mg' Flavourless is 29.2 to 29.8 mg/ml.

My opened bottle (but 90% full, about 9 months old) of '36mg' Tobacco is 35.2 to 35.9 mg/ml.

Thanks Exo!

Interesting that the TW 36 mg tobacco you tested was close to labeled potency as to be no difference.

Doubly interesting that the TW 36 mg flavorless you tested averaged 29.5 mg/mL (2 tests).

The 3 tests I did back to back on the TW 36 mg flavorless last month gave me the following results:

27.3 mg/mL
27.8 mg/mL
28.4 mg/mL

Average: 27.8 mg/mL

So now we have two different testers who got results of 27.8 mg/mL and 29.5 mg/mL on two different bottles of TW 36 mg flavorless.

% of labeled concentration determined for TW 36 mg flavorless.

Dvap = 77%
Exogenesis = 82%

_____________________________________________________

That's what we call in the business, "data sticking together".

Exo... If curiosity gets the better of you, go for it on the other bottles!

 

[DVap]

Exo - nice charts. Shows that the DVap method gives a pretty clear determination

What a cheek! (as you once said).

 

[DVap]

8 members currently on this thread.. looks like a feeding frenzy!

 

[exogenesis]

OK, cheers, I reckon I will, but I'd better do some 'mundane' stuff first.

 

[Scottes]

I have some Blip 75mg and some Platinum Ice 54mg on the way. I'll be sure to do a comparison, both straight, and both mixed down to half-strength (so equal amounts of PG affect the flavor), and possibly both mixed down to 36mg which I'm not sure I'd be able to detect a difference.


As to coffee flavor, I can recommend that you tru LorAnn's Keoke Coffee. I usually mix it with Capella's Coffee bean to get depth, but if you like that burnt caramel smell then the Keoke may be a better match. Both of those flavors are two of my favorites.

 

[kinabaloo]

What a cheek! (as you once said).

Just after posting I decided to cut the 'pretty' modifier. Taking the mid-point on the slope is easily done and known to be accurate from the increasing sample size. So I have every confidence in it

 

[kinabaloo]

I have some Blip 75mg and some Platinum Ice 54mg on the way. I'll be sure to do a comparison, both straight, and both mixed down to half-strength (so equal amounts of PG affect the flavor), and possibly both mixed down to 36mg which I'm not sure I'd be able to detect a difference.


As to coffee flavor, I can recommend that you tru LorAnn's Keoke Coffee. I usually mix it with Capella's Coffee bean to get depth, but if you like that burnt caramel smell then the Keoke may be a better match. Both of those flavors are two of my favorites.

Thanks for the pointer

I had switched to menthol cigs for a couple of years before vaping as no longer liked the taste of normal ones. The menthol does a very good job of masking the nastiness, although after a few months I could not really taste the mentol much.

Have tried various menthol liquids without success, then menthol crystals - doesn't do it for me. Then tried a few others, such as menthalyptus, Eucalyptus and forget the others; love that aroma in a sauna, but to me these don't work for vaping.

Similarly, like almond as a taste, but found it horrid in a vape.

Fruit flavors I have found to be all ok. And vanilla.