Has anybody read this at Totally Wicked?
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afaik, the Ice range is handled by Decadent Vapers on their behalf, by a guy sometime poster here and who knows his chemistry so i would expect that range range to not have this variability; the nic for the Ice range coming from a lab that supplies the nic for patches etc (i believe).
Oh, reached 3,000 posts 
And just realised I missed House of Flying Daggers yet again (was on the TV here)
All this talk about flavors has motivated me to try some out over the coming weeks. With the pure, clean base that is Ice, will be interesting. Just tried some menthol crystals and the taste was better than when i have tried before
And just realised I missed House of Flying Daggers yet again (was on the TV here)
All this talk about flavors has motivated me to try some out over the coming weeks. With the pure, clean base that is Ice, will be interesting. Just tried some menthol crystals and the taste was better than when i have tried before
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Exo, taking the average between the low and high of the range for each of your tests, we get:
24 mg/mL Cherry: 29.95 mg/ml
24 mg/mL Banana: 27.15 mg/ml
36 mg/mL Flavourless: 29.5 mg/ml
(my 36 mg/mL flavorless result: 27.8 mg/mL, within 6% of your result).
36 mg/mL tobacco : 35.55 mg/ml
Looking at these numbers, it is odd that the "outlier" is the 36 mg/mL tobacco which determined at essentially it's stated concentration.
Let's look at the remaining 3 liquids:
24 mg/mL Cherry: 29.95 mg/ml
24 mg/mL Banana: 27.15 mg/ml
36 mg/mL Flavourless: 29.5 mg/ml
I can't help but notice that these samples of 24 and 36 mg all look essentially similar. Taking the average of the 3 results we get 28.87 mg/mL. If we apply this average to the claimed concentrations, we get 120% at 24 mg, and we get 80% at 36 mg. The average of these results are right in the middle of the two concentrations.
Could the 24 mg and 36 mg liquids actually be identically produced, just with different labels? The overlap is odd, and the average right in the middle is odder still. Am I suggesting that TW did this? No, of course I'm not. I'm simply trained to notice things like this and say, "Hmmmm".
Exo, I do not consider the 24 mg liquid testing high to be "In TW's favor". It would be in TW's favor for their 24 mg liquid to test at 24 mg, and for their 36 mg liquid to test at 36 mg.
This "Low for one, high for the other" phenomenon should simply make one wonder if we can count of this company to deliver what they claim.
TW, if you're reading this: No, we're not attacking you. Exogenesis and I have tested your liquids for nicotine concentration, and inconsistencies have been found both to the low side and to the high side. We have both observed 36 mg unflavored to be around 20% low, and Exogenesis has observed multiple 24 mg liquids to be around 20% high. The exception to this was 36 mg tobacco flavor being essential as labeled. This cluster of inconsistent results we've obtained for your regular (non-Platinum Ice) liquids at 24 and 36 mg stand out from the testing I have done on liquids from other suppliers, which have tested within 5% of the expected nicotine concentration with remarkable consistency. There may be a scientifically sound refutation to the results we've obtained, and if so, it will be welcomed. If, however, the inconsistencies we have observed in our testing reflects the reality, then we simply desire you to be aware of it so that you may do whatever you deem appropriate to address it. We think highly of your liquids from a flavor standpoint and we also wish to view the potency of your liquids with the same high regard via high confidence in the potency. We all hold your Platinum Ice product line in high regard, though I will still put it to the test, expecting to confirm what we all suspect, that it is "as advertised" with regard to nicotine potency. If this turns out to be the case, I will praise the potency of your Platinum Ice liquid openly and enthusiastically, just as I openly and with concern question the consistency in the potency of your other liquids.
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DVap - just as when i looked for a 'dilution factor', these observations are astute.
But how about the possibility, even if remote, that this effect is due to an experimental (method) limitation - that around above say 25mg concentrations, all solutions will tend to titrate out at about 30mg ...
Not thought about how that could be yet. But worth a pause for thought ?
Edit - you can tell I've had no sleep - am forgeting the DeKang results; silly me.
Assuming that at least one of the DeKang test was on a 36mg liquid ... (?)
Need a more concentrated titrator for the more concentrated nic liquids perhaps? Otherwise the dilution effect could produce the limit of result to circa 30mg ??
Or perhaps dilution is irrelevant in that titration works on a more or less molecular level - one molecule cancelling another.
--- just racking my brains to offer an explanation ...
But how about the possibility, even if remote, that this effect is due to an experimental (method) limitation - that around above say 25mg concentrations, all solutions will tend to titrate out at about 30mg ...
Not thought about how that could be yet. But worth a pause for thought ?
Edit - you can tell I've had no sleep - am forgeting the DeKang results; silly me.
Assuming that at least one of the DeKang test was on a 36mg liquid ... (?)
Need a more concentrated titrator for the more concentrated nic liquids perhaps? Otherwise the dilution effect could produce the limit of result to circa 30mg ??
Or perhaps dilution is irrelevant in that titration works on a more or less molecular level - one molecule cancelling another.
--- just racking my brains to offer an explanation ...
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Yes, if the Tobacco had show about 30mg/ml some might wonder
about certain ranges all being made from the same strength.
But well said above, no need for confrontation, just investigation of the facts.
Either way I don't think they sell nicotine priced per mg, in fact the
whole range has the same price whether 0 or 36 mg/ml.
So can't really complain about being short-changed,
just possibly somewhat variable from 'as-stated'.
Will be interested in what you find for stock Plat.Ice...
edit: don't think there's a limit to the titration method Kin.,
maybe some interefering factors, but probably within 'experimental' determination
edit2: gotta go, time to go to work here, must be 2am for DVap.
about certain ranges all being made from the same strength.
But well said above, no need for confrontation, just investigation of the facts.
Either way I don't think they sell nicotine priced per mg, in fact the
whole range has the same price whether 0 or 36 mg/ml.
So can't really complain about being short-changed,
just possibly somewhat variable from 'as-stated'.
Will be interested in what you find for stock Plat.Ice...
edit: don't think there's a limit to the titration method Kin.,
maybe some interefering factors, but probably within 'experimental' determination
edit2: gotta go, time to go to work here, must be 2am for DVap.
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"24 mg/mL Cherry: 29.95 mg/ml
24 mg/mL Banana: 27.15 mg/ml
36 mg/mL Flavourless: 29.5 mg/ml"
And tobacco flavor 36mg : about 36mg
Seems not to be aan interefrence by flavorings ...
24 mg/mL Banana: 27.15 mg/ml
36 mg/mL Flavourless: 29.5 mg/ml"
And tobacco flavor 36mg : about 36mg
Seems not to be aan interefrence by flavorings ...
The tobacco flavored is probably handled separately from a no-flavor batch though, that then becomes either unflavored or specialty flavored.
So the tobacco flavored being different is not actually surprising.
So the tobacco flavored being different is not actually surprising.
The problem is that this situation requires 2 mistakes - one to mix a 24 and a 36; and then to use that mix both as 24 and as 36.
In other words, a 'mix up' can't be a 'mistake' (not necessarily by TW of course). Though a completely different explanation is still possible.
In other words, a 'mix up' can't be a 'mistake' (not necessarily by TW of course). Though a completely different explanation is still possible.
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Last post before sleep ...
A long shot but an interesting thought that ties in with the old debate about the greater efficacy/effect of analogs.
Something in tobacco helps the nicotine ring true in the tests (as perhaps it does in analogs). Hence the tobacco flavor scoring the 'correct' result. DeKang's liquids may all be of the tobacco flavored variety (tobacco + x flavor). Without that 'extra', the nic doesn't get counted properly.
Possible?
A long shot but an interesting thought that ties in with the old debate about the greater efficacy/effect of analogs.
Something in tobacco helps the nicotine ring true in the tests (as perhaps it does in analogs). Hence the tobacco flavor scoring the 'correct' result. DeKang's liquids may all be of the tobacco flavored variety (tobacco + x flavor). Without that 'extra', the nic doesn't get counted properly.
Possible?
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kin, it works on a molecular level (well, actually on an ionic level).
I've titrated 24 mg Dekang to within a few percent of 24 mg, 16 mg liquid to within a few percent of 16 mg, 26 mg liquid to within a few percent of 26 mg, 40 mg liquid to within a few percent of 40 mg, 48 mg liquid to within a few percent of 48 mg, 60 mg liquid to within a few percent of 60mg, 150 mg liquid to within a few percent of 150 mg, and 500 mg liquid to within a few percent of 500 mg. Generally, I get results within 5% of the expected value (and as I refine my home equipment by adding higher precision measuring equipment, I've seen my results improving to within 1 or 2% difference from the expected value). Most results I get for suppliers, I ask them to send me the sample, "blind", I don't know the nicotine concentration beforehand. Still less than 5% from the expected value.
I've titrated as much as 500 mg of nicotine and as little as 5 mg of nicotine. The titration has proven accurate at all these levels (though the error at just 5 mg of nicotine is more uncertain due to the error in sighting on a burette for an addition of only 0.31 mL of acid).
The "dilution effect" exists, but is negligible. There is no "dead zone", ions are ions, and an excess is an excess. It's true that more dilute solutions produce less sharp endpoints, but as I've already figured, and Exo's curves illustrate, the range of conditions that he and I are working with produce either dramatic endpoint pH drops or at least endpoints that translate to a reasonably narrow upper/lower concentration limit.
I set the "standard" weight of nicotine to shoot for at 406 mg. This weight of nicotine requires 25 mL of 0.1 N acid to neutralize. If Exo did a curve with this weight of nicotine versus 0.1 N acid, the endpoint would be quite dramatic displaying a precipitous pH drop within an extremely low volume of acid. It is this precipitous endpoint that I shoot for when I do a determination for an e-liquid supplier. When Exo titrates with less total nicotine present, the endpoint becomes less dramatic, but still (as he has shown) sufficiently distinct to confidently determine a fairly narrow upper/lower limit of nicotine concentration. By design, I've worked out my procedure to require only an indicator to give an extremely sharp endpoint. Exo has the luxury of a pH meter at home, and thus can work graphically. It's a powerful luxury to have. Still, his endpoint ranges at lower nicotine weights demonstrate that both our methodologies are appropriate and sound over the range of conditions that e-liquid testing presents.
With 0.1 N acid, I consider 5 mg of nicotine present to be cutoff where the addition of very small amounts of acid make the volume delta on the burette too uncertain. No problem, if I want more resolution at lower nicotine weights, I simply drop my acid concentration to 0.01 N. It all works.
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The liquids I've tested for Chris (MFS) are from a very pure very flavorless nicotine source. I've seen a 50% nicotine solution that was absolutely clear indicating a highly purified source. My results for his liquids whether they be a few percent or 50% are dead on. As requested, he sends me all samples with a question mark in place of the labeled concentration. The only information I request is to be told if I'm working with anything over 10% so I can prepare appropriate engineering controls for safety. He also tends to send me "extra" (God bless him), so I can't use the volume sent to "guess" at the concentration based on having 406 mg to titrate. I have to do a small scale "rough determination", then scale it up to get as close to my desired 406 mg nicotine as possible.
At first glance one might wonder was the product 36mg to start and flavor added?
It is still 36mg........not so....flavors can range from 10-30%. Avg. 20%?
If that was the case the 36mg is in a given volume of 30ml is actually only 28.8mg/ml nic.
Well, that number looks familiar.
It doesn't work at all though with exo's 24mg titration. If the above stated were the case the 24mg should have tested out as 19.2mg/ml , not higher.
The tobacco flavorings added may indeed contain nicotine. Many bottles are listed ie....."Essential Oil of Tobacco (Virginia)". I doubt there is 0 nicotine in it if you look at the critical extraction methods used. It would be an extra expense to remove it.
This might explain the "mid line" theory and also why people rave that TW's juice "kicks ....". If compared by vaping, thier 24mg sure would to a person with system trained at an actual 24mg when vaping near 30mg.
Strange what you think of at 5am and no sleep............................
It is still 36mg........not so....flavors can range from 10-30%. Avg. 20%?
If that was the case the 36mg is in a given volume of 30ml is actually only 28.8mg/ml nic.
Well, that number looks familiar.
It doesn't work at all though with exo's 24mg titration. If the above stated were the case the 24mg should have tested out as 19.2mg/ml , not higher.
The tobacco flavorings added may indeed contain nicotine. Many bottles are listed ie....."Essential Oil of Tobacco (Virginia)". I doubt there is 0 nicotine in it if you look at the critical extraction methods used. It would be an extra expense to remove it.
This might explain the "mid line" theory and also why people rave that TW's juice "kicks ....". If compared by vaping, thier 24mg sure would to a person with system trained at an actual 24mg when vaping near 30mg.
Strange what you think of at 5am and no sleep............................
Yes, possibly that is a factor, the supplier gets out the 36 and adds
flavours, to make it 30 (in some cases). Would be an odd thing to do
but it still could happening.
flavours, to make it 30 (in some cases). Would be an odd thing to do
but it still could happening.
I have a difficult time believing that this could be missed. It also fails to account for multiple over-concentration results.
Between Exo and I, we are seeing a negative trend in the 36, and Exo is seeing a positive trend in the 24. Despite this, we have still sampled a very small number of samples (n=5). The uncertainty that is brewing about the potency of these liquids vs stated potency is based mainly on the fact that of this small sample size, 80% of our results have deviated from the stated concentration by ~20% one way or another in our testing.
Just to clarify - there's little advantage to either TW or the supplier in this, just a streamlining in being able to use one batch for both labels. So I doubt this was the case.
Have put forward a few hypotheses but they don;t fly. Vaporer's idea was good thinking but also cannot be the answer.
It's quite a puzzle. The small sample size is a brake here, but it's bigger than 1 or 2.
Would be interesting to take two bottles of the same type - 1 of 24 and 1 of 36 and see if they are identical.
If not, perhaps there are two parallel errors involved rather than sequential.
If not, perhaps there are two parallel errors involved rather than sequential.
Could just be someone with poor maths did the mixing, in calculating x starting nic conc to end up with y when adding z amount of flavoring.
Presumably this was done by the supplier.
For example. If one mixes 3 parts of A with 1 of B, the mistake of thinking that B is at 33% because there is '3x more of A / B is 33% as much as A' could be made; there are of course 4 parts in all, so 25% would be correct.
So any mistake would probably not be by the lab producing the nic, but at the stage of adding flavors / diluting the nic (Vaporer could well be onto something there).
Presumably this was done by the supplier.
For example. If one mixes 3 parts of A with 1 of B, the mistake of thinking that B is at 33% because there is '3x more of A / B is 33% as much as A' could be made; there are of course 4 parts in all, so 25% would be correct.
So any mistake would probably not be by the lab producing the nic, but at the stage of adding flavors / diluting the nic (Vaporer could well be onto something there).
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I have 4 bottles of that unflavoured 36mg,
probably all from the same batch,
maybe I should test the other 3 as well?
Kin. please don't take this the wrong way, but I was
wondering what's the possibility of keeping to one post instead
of 3 to 5 per set of thoughts over a 5 minute period ?
You've got to the 3000 milestone.
I'm finding it's making threads just that bit more difficult to plough through. [/polite]
.
probably all from the same batch,
maybe I should test the other 3 as well?
Kin. please don't take this the wrong way, but I was
wondering what's the possibility of keeping to one post instead
of 3 to 5 per set of thoughts over a 5 minute period ?
You've got to the 3000 milestone.
I'm finding it's making threads just that bit more difficult to plough through. [/polite]
.
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3 posts, with interesting ideas. It's not less words if in one post. I don't complain that you write a post that is only to criticise. No idea why you have been like this. Please just put me on your ignore list.
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