Has anybody read this at Totally Wicked?

[DVap]

BTW, I've got some TW 36 mg flavorless on the way.

Assuming the old stock has rotated out, this stuff should be newer. If this is the case, I will be surprised if the ~20% potency shortfall is seen with the newer stock. I suspect TW is aware that there was a problem, and that awareness most probably resulted in positive action on their part. "Fix the problem, say as little as possible about it, and hope it goes away" is pretty a common business practice.

Whatever result I get will be representative of what TW is selling today, but not necessarily representative of what they're making today. It all depends on the age of their stock.

 

[emus]

No math that's valid.

If we look strictly at what is in a 1.8% (w/w) nicotine in PG solution, we will have 1.8 grams of nicotine per 100 grams of juice. The juice will have 1.8 grams of nicotine and 98.2 grams of PG.

Nicotine: density = 1.01
So 1.8 grams of nicotine has a volume of 1.78 mL.

PG: density = 1.036
So 98.2 grams of PG has a volume of 94.79 mL

The volume (nominally, since the can be subtle solute/solvent effects) of a 1.8% (w/w) nicotine/PG mix (containing 1.8 grams nicotine and 98.2 grams of PG... total combined weight 100 g) is 1.78 mL + 94.79 mL = 96.57 mL.

So a 1.8% (w/w) nicotine in PG solution contains 1.8 grams nicotine and 98.2 grams PG. The volume of this solution should be very close to the simplistically calculated 96.57 mL, this means that there are 1.8 grams of nicotine in 96.57 mL of liquid, which puts it at 18.6 mg/mL (on the more commonly used wt/vol basis).

Your conclusion is similar to mine:

CERTIFICATE OF ANALYSIS Report Number: 1610083:
"The sample supplied was a 30ml bottle of 36mg Super High eliquid.
The Nicotine level was found to be : 1.8% (w/w)"

1ml=1cc

Nicotine denstity = 1.01 gr/cc= 1.01 gr/ml

PG density = 1.036 gr/cc=1.036 gr/ml

1.8%(w/w) =1.8%(weight/weight)=1.8%(gr Nicotine/gr eliquid)

1.8%(gr Nicotine/gr eliquid) / 100=0.018 gr nicotine/gr eliquid

eliquid density aprox=1.03 gr/ml (assuming eliquid composed of only Nicotine and PG)

1.03 gr eliq/ml x 30 ml eliq = 30.9 gr eliq

30.9 gr eliq * (0.018 gr nic/ gr eliq) = 0.556 gr nic per 30 ml eliq

0.556 gr nic * (1000mg/gr) = 556 mg nic per 30 ml eliq

556 mg nic/ 30ml eliquid = approx 18.5 mg Nicotine per ml of Super High eliquid

 

[supertrkre2812]

I also noticed that their sample contained VG, yet i do not see that VG was listed as an ingredient i their liquid.
What would be their level of responsibility if someone bought a bottle of juice that was intolerant of VG and had a reaction?
I know some people can not handle PG and some can not handle VG.
But why mix 20% VG and not tell customers? Some customers mix 20% VG when they get it for more vapor (me included), but some do not.
Just another thought.
I really am not picking on them, honestly. I have never even tried their liquid, and because of this, i probably never will. But if you are going to be a business that relies on customer satisfaction, deliver what you say you are delivering, and do not deliver something that customer is not aware they are getting (VG).

 

[DVap]

I also noticed that their sample contained VG, yet i do not see that VG was listed as an ingredient i their liquid.
What would be their level of responsibility if someone bought a bottle of juice that was intolerant of VG and had a reaction?
I know some people can not handle PG and some can not handle VG.
But why mix 20% VG and not tell customers? Some customers mix 20% VG when they get it for more vapor (me included), but some do not.
Just another thought.
I really am not picking on them, honestly. I have never even tried their liquid, and because of this, i probably never will. But if you are going to be a business that relies on customer satisfaction, deliver what you say you are delivering, and do not deliver something that customer is not aware they are getting (VG).

We'll get nothing more than what we demand (not about any particular company, just in general). If we demand full and accurate labeling, and not providing it translates to significant loss of sales, then it will happen. The companies who don't bother will see the companies that do bother eat their lunch. If a few of us have high expectations, and the majority don't, nothing much will happen.

A great deal of becoming an informed consumer is education. As more and more of us become more educated, we raise our standards and our demands. More and more suppliers will step up to meet these standards and demands. It's already beginning to happen as I've done testing for several suppliers who want to be certain they are providing the nicotine potency they claim. They are become more sophisticated as suppliers because they know we're becoming more sophisticated as consumers. As our suppliers begin to demand more control over the quality of the products they sell, they will hold their suppliers to higher standards.

It's really a good thing to see this beginning to happening.

 

[Scottes]

Similarly, like almond as a taste, but found it horrid in a vape.

Fruit flavors I have found to be all ok. And vanilla.

I love Capella's Toasted Almond - love it. But it is a sweet taste, not huge on pure almond, just damned tasty. Happy Vaper's Vanilla Custard is out of this world delicious.

 

[DVap]

Exo, I didn't mention it before, but with your using the pH meter and going to the trouble of providing titration curves, you've really done a good job with it. You've proven that you know what you're doing, while I'm far lazier in that I know what I'm doing, but am unwilling to expend the effort to prove it exhaustively (relying instead on the fact that I've been nailing the concentrations of samples of my liquids and samples provided to me). As kin pointed out, our methods agree.

The take-away from this is simple: Suppliers should be on notice that customers sitting at home can and do "peek under the label".

 

[Vaporer]

I had aquired some DeKang orange a while back. It had a wonderful tobacco after taste as the orange faded on exhale. Flavor has to be one of the most subjective things in the world.
1 persons passion is anothers poison. I agree menthol is just coolness and does subdue a lot of harshness. Both it and vanilla go well with abt anything. Reading up on DIY vanilla, it is actually 200+ flavors. That may be why it compliments so much. Cream, nuts are others that fits the same catagory to me. I guess I'm old fashioned. I tried many of the exotic combos only to fall back to base tobacco flavors and some of the fruits.
Even vaping fruits I like I will tire and go for a nice Virginia or Burley pretty quick. More like a desert break.
The candy bar, cookies and such just doesnt seem to appeal to me of what I expect when I vape.

 

[Vaporer]

DVap is right. Bad news travels way faster than good. Find something bad and you will tell 20 people. Something good and if you tell 5 its luck. Just human nature.
So if suppliers get a bad rap from just a few they should see sales fall off.
The longer vaping exists the higher the standards will be put on suppliers and manufacturers. Same goes for hardware as well.

 

[mpetva]

Could someone please enlighten me and tell me what 'BLIP" is?

 

[Scottes]

Blip Labs, a supplier of some very clean nicotine juice, up to 7.5% (basically 75mg/ml).

Blip Labs

 

[JustDucky]

Their site seems to be under construction at the moment, but Blip Labs sells high concentrations of nicotine in propylene glycol solution.

Blip Labs

Ha! Beaten to the submit button.

 

[kinabaloo]

DVap is right. Bad news travels way faster than good. Find something bad and you will tell 20 people. Something good and if you tell 5 its luck. Just human nature.
So if suppliers get a bad rap from just a few they should see sales fall off.
The longer vaping exists the higher the standards will be put on suppliers and manufacturers. Same goes for hardware as well.

Good news can travel fast too sometimes. Just look at how quickly the 510 took off.

Luckily for us as consumers, there is healthy competition in juices. JC had a spell of problems, quite a long spell in fact, but have come through it.

One should remember that TW have been open about the issue. They also have a record of innovation, including safety features testing and labelling; and with the Ice range and DIY flavor mixers have a winner. TW has been a leader in many ways, and I expect them to remain so.

 

[DVap]

Good news can travel fast too sometimes. Just look at how quickly the 510 took off.

Luckily for us as consumers, there is healthy competition in juices. JC had a spell of problems, quite a long spell in fact, but have come through it.

One should remember that TW have been open about the issue. They also have a record of innovation, including safety features testing and labelling; and with the Ice range and DIY flavor mixers have a winner. TW has been a leader in many ways, and I expect them to remain so.

Yep, and a point not to be missed. TW does do some really good flavors, and their PI mixing liquid gets rave reviews for cleanness.

Some point to reiterate:

1. The 18 mg lab result on the 36 mg liquid, I believe, should be discounted. The format and content of the lab report doesn't instill me with confidence. Does a dodgy report equal a dodgy lab? I don't know, but I'm giving TW the benefit of the doubt on this one.

2. While Exo and I have found potency issues with their 36 mg unflavored, I would categorize the severity as "moderate".

3. As kin pointed out, a company that wishes to survive will learn from their miscues.

 

[Scottes]

I agree.

As for #3, it's seems that they have learned, given their work with the Platinum Ice and the PI report that gives me more confidence.

 

[exogenesis]

Now these go in TW's favour:

24mg/ml Cherry (90% full 30 ml bottle) titrated to between 29.2 to 30.7 mg/ml,
24mg/ml Banana (full 20 ml bottle) titrated to between 26.5 to 27.8 mg/ml (slight estimate here).

2ml (1.95 to 2.05) ml titrated:

Updated the spreadsheet in my previous post in this thread.

I was wondering about what was discussed about additives affecting this method,
and for example if 'flavourless' contained something (in the 6mg/ml area) that
reduces the titration, but looking at the curve, its seems consistent with the 'Tobacco'.
And why would flavourless contain a load of something that tobacco doesn't ?

Anyway for these 24 mg/ml tests, the additive would have to be adding up to 6mg/ml equivalent,
so I feel this isn't actually a problem.

Quick!, nip out & buy a load of 24mg TW cherry, you're possibly getting 30mg/ml

Whatever, it seems a bit variable, whether it's consistent per juice type,
or changes per batch that TW receives, I've no idea,
DVap's test on some new flavourless should show that.

DVap, I guess we're not really trying to 'catch them out', but it's nice
to know what the variances are, this has been an interesting enlightenment,
hopefully as you say suppliers will survive & learn to test the delivered juice,
rather than take it on trust from wherever.

Why do my fingers smell of bananery-cherry?

 

[DVap]

I agree.

As for #3, it's seems that they have learned, given their work with the Platinum Ice and the PI report that gives me more confidence.

Yup, and I will be testing a sample of PI that Mister will be sending me in the upcoming week along with the 36 mg unflavored that I'll be getting in the upcoming week.

If no issues are uncovered with these samples, I'd say they've likely put things all in good order.

 

[Chrissie]

Thank you so much Exo & Dvap.

I also queried the lab report with Pillbox when when I first saw it & I wasn't happy with the maths explanation that was pointed out to me.

However, after reading the posts on this thread from Exo & Dvap, I'm with Scottes & now have far more confidence in what I am buying.

Just one thing I would like to add to the debate, even though I was concerned about that report, for some reason, I tend to find that TW juices satisfy my cravings for nicotine more than some others I have tried.

 

[Scottes]

Now these go in TW's favour:

I can't agree. This just proves a lack of consistency.


This does not lower my confidence in Platinum, however. But I will not be buying any of their other juices (probably - their cola is my wife's favorite cola).


DVap, Exo - have either of you tested Blip for strength?
Or EcoPure?

 

[DVap]

And another point:

This thread is only 20 hours old with a view-count approaching 1,000. This illustrates an intense interest in the topic.

So far there has been a great deal of speculation, accompanied by two pieces of concurring data generated by Exo and myself concerning the TW 36 mg flavorless liquid.

TW will certainly get wind of this, and they can do several things:

1. Come out swinging (attack the messengers).
Not smart when two messengers on two continents are carrying the same message and have presented their methodology openly.

2. Ignore the problem.
This assumes the issues with potency have not been fixed (I suspect they have been fixed). Again, not a smart thing to do.

3. Address the problem.
If the potency issues with the 36 mg flavorless still exist, they've been caught out [Edit: This is a harsh and unjustified expression to use, leaving it in place, but it's not what I wished to express]. Time to make sure it doesn't happen again.

4. Sit back because the problem is already fixed.
If the problem existed and has been fixed, then they've got things covered.

 

[DVap]

I can't agree. This just proves a lack of consistency.


This does not lower my confidence in Platinum, however. But I will not be buying any of their other juices (probably - their cola is my wife's favorite cola).


DVap, Exo - have either of you tested Blip for strength?
Or EcoPure?

Neither of us have tested either of these liquids. I really expect no problem with Blip because I strongly suspect they simply mix down from pure nicotine and control the entire process inhouse.