Has anybody read this at Totally Wicked?

[kinabaloo]

Exo - If I were a supplier, I'd certainly get mine tested, before some agency does.

DVap says all the DeKang originated liquids tested correctly; but it's not the only supplier.

I've heard of a few liquids having citric acid, but don't remember which.

Scottes - it's all in the open here. But sometimes it's best to get a second opinion before musing on something.

 

[exogenesis]

Interesting, wonder if TW uses DeKang.

I read that certain 'USA made' juices have citric acid,
can't remember the suppliers tho.

Anyway must crash now, see you soon.

 

[DVap]

Kin. I strongly suspect that the fruity flavours in all juices are 'smell-alikes' (or taste-alikes) rather than actually fruit juice derived. NickOTeen could probably give a whole load of details about the actual chemicals involved.

DVap, i doubt if the Chinese (or wherever) suppliers will let on what's in their juices, in terms of 'modifiers', the chemical ingredient lists that I've seen don't mention and acid/alkali (I think), but they might not have considered it important, in the given context.

The 'higher than' 24 juices were presumably just variation in formulation,
I doubt they'd deliberately give away extra nicotine ?

Will be interesting to see what Pillbox can garner from his supplier(s),
hopefully I'll be proved wrong and the flavourless really is 36mg/ml

Whatever, it's certainly not 18 mg/ml, which was the problem the OP
is really all about.

edit: as just pointed out in the TW thread, all of this variablility is hardly
likely to be specific to TW's chinese juices,
how many volunteers do you reckon there'll be likely to be for free samples for testing ?

.

Exo, you've fingered it pretty well. The ~18.6 mg/mL (1.8% w/w) result that was generated by the laboratory that TW used seems to be highly dubious given what we've both seen, and can likely be safely laid on the scrapheap.

As for modifiers, we don't know if TW's Chinese supplier is supposed to be providing TW with only nicotine/PG or instead with nicotine/PG/modifiers. If the Chinese supplier is supposed to be providing just nicotine/PG at some stated concentration, then it would be quite easy for TW to have it tested. Heck, you could do it for them confidentially if they wished since you're in the same time zone and all. They could easily hire out any competent lab to titrate it as well. One thing I think I've gathered is that their supplier simply responds, "all is well", to any inquiry. TW needs to (and apparently is) becoming more critical of their constant refrain of "all is well".

So, for the low 36 mg unflavored results, we have the following possibilities:

1. The nicotine is present at the lower level.
2. The nicotine is present at 36 mg, but an acidic modifier(s) is masking some of the nicotine from the titration.

For the high 24 mg liquids, it's a little harder to speculate, but perhaps:

1. The nicotine is present at greater than 24 mg.
2. The nicotine is present at 24 mg, but a basic modifier(s) is being titrated as nicotine.

Having a combination of modifiers that in one case bias positive and in another case bias negative... well, it creates more questions than simple explanations can provide.

 

[DVap]

DVap says all the DeKang originated liquids tested correctly; but it's not the only supplier.

The number of determinations was quite limited here. I had several identical bottles received at once, possibly all from the same lot. As no lot # was evident on any of the packaging, this is unknown. All of the 24 mg Dekang "USA Mix" bottles (several) tested at 24 mg, that much is known.

[Edit: best I take the rest of the night off, lest the lady here become fed up with me tapping away at the keyboard]

 

[kinabaloo]

I guess that if there is an acidic modifier taking the 36mg down to 29/30, then the likely co-answer for the 24mg is that it is in fact 36mg liquid also.

We don't know if the supplier sends higher strength liquid that is subsequently diluted*; or indeed if the flavors are added by the supplier or later. We might be unfairly pointing at the supplier.

~~

Even if the supplied liquid is not higher than 36mg, it makes sense to order only that and then dilute some of it to make the 24mg liquid. Perhaps it comes in at 60 or 70mg and the dilutions and flavorings added locally. The thing is, we just don't know.

 

[kinabaloo]

Some more thoughts on Absorbtion.

"James Pankow of Oregon Health and Science University in Portland. Nicotine occurs naturally in tobacco, but cigarette manufacturers have banked on nicotine's allure by encouraging a form known as "free-base" nicotine in the final product.

Nicotine, Pankow explains, occurs naturally in tobacco plants as either an acid or a base. The acidic form is more stable, and therefore more concentrated. The basic form, known as "free-base" nicotine, is volatile, especially when smoked. As a result, it is absorbed quickly and efficiently into the lungs when a person smokes, where it quickly reaches the brain. Acidic nicotine, conversely, clings to the particles of smoke as they settle into the lungs, and is slowly absorbed before it is transported to the brain."
2. Smoking smarter?

[DVap - notice the reference to acidic nicotine form - perhaps this is the acidic modifier; the earlier generation juices may not be as completely freebase as the newer, from 99% pure, ones.]

So, despite being much less freebase than e-cig liquid, analog smoke is, as a whole, faster acting (presumably because it is more quickly absorbed).

I can imagine that the nic being mostly dissolved in droplets of base liquid can explain the slower absorbtion. Going further, and taking into account the studies (?) that say that e-cig nic is more absorbed in the mouth and throat than in the lungs, here is a possible bit more explanation.

The difference is due not only to the type of nicotine but the form of carrier (for the bulk of the nic) - fine ash particles, or liquid mist droplets. I want to hypothesise that nic in liquid will poorly absorbed in the lungs in particular because lungs are designed for gas absorbption; and furthermore, there is a liquid flow out of the lungs as part of their keeping clean.

That former heavier smokers would be the least satisfied with vapor is no surprise of course; but this would be compounded by the fact that former heavy smokers are more likely to have been lung inhalers.

 

[Vaporer]

I see you are begining to realize why I was so interested in the pH of the e liquid and its form in the determining nic thread. It plays a large role in efficiency. I'm not the ony one that has speculated that e liquid should be more basic for mucous adsorption.

Also, Johnson Creek on the label in front of me ( the Original Formula) not only states citric acid, but vinegar also.

 

[kinabaloo]

I see you are begining to realize why I was so interested in the pH of the e liquid and its form in the determining nic thread. It plays a large role in efficiency. I'm not the ony one that has speculated that e liquid should be more basic for mucous adsorption.

Also, Johnson Creek on the label in front of me ( the Original Formula) not only states citric acid, but vinegar also.

Not just beginning; it's an old topic. But life left in it yet

Adding acids would seem to be unwise; After all, nic juices already have 'bite' due to the nic. JC has changed from adding these now ?

 

[Vaporer]

I don't have a later bottle of the reduced PG version.

 

[DVap]

Not just beginning; it's an old topic. But life left in it yet

Adding acids would seem to be unwise; After all, nic juices already have 'bite' due to the nic. JC has changed from adding these now ?

With tobacco, both the nicotine base and nicotine salts hitch a ride on particles of tar which are deposited along the airway leading to a fast/slow absorption of the base versus the salt. With vapor, deposition and absorption of nicotine salt hasn't been studied remotely as thoroughly as with smoke.

Cigarettes are often manipulated heavily toward the base since the combustion products (I believe) tend toward acidic in their own right. I don't think e-cig vapor tends either way aside from the nicotine which obviously exerts a distinctly basic influence. The addition of acidic species will have an influence toward binding the nicotine in salt form. Depending on how well vapor deposits nicotine salts in the airway, it might not matter for overall slow absorption (deposited nicotine salt will be absorbed eventually), but it would affect overall rapid absorption (deposited nicotine base is absorbed rapidly).

So at the bottom line, acidic species in e-liquid might not be as large a problem as one might expect. If we look solely at total nicotine absorption, we likely get our "money's worth". [Edit: we have to assume that salts make it to the vapor for the previous statement to work.] But for rapid absorption, getting a "nicotine hit", just like with analogs, it's all about the base.

 

[kinabaloo]

DVap, that all makes sense, except that salts of nicotine are unlikely to get out of the atty; either the salt splits (we are talking ions in solution so this is possible I guess) and releases the nic as the usual freebase vapor or, more predominantly I would guess, at the point of vaporisation the salt crystalises out and just 'burns up' on the atty coil. That is, will be a 'dry residue'.

A very small amount of the salt in tiny particles might get blasted into the air directly by vaporisation pressure (or even just via air flow if tiny enough) or through droplets of liquid containing it getting blasted off the coil. But the great majority of what leaves the coil is vappor that only recondenses later.

~~~

Furthermore, wondering if any salt formation might take place at the heater coil, even if there are no acidic species in the juice; somehow. To act as a secondary (to oxidation) mechanism for nic loss in the atty. For example, oxidation of the nic can produce formic acid; this might then take out more nic by salt creation. Something(s) like that.

 

[DVap]

DVap, that all makes sense, except that salts of nicotine are unlikely to get out of the atty; either the salt splits and releases the nic or, more likely, it just burns up on the atty coil.

Am not proposing that salts get delivered, simply what might happen if salts get delivered.

All in all, with the current limited knowledge of the fate of nicotine salts in e-cigs, I'd prefer my liquid to not contain acidic species.

 

[kinabaloo]

DVap - exactly

This would likely be a minor factor; but one that could potentially make the newer, purer liquids that bit better in terms of buzz/hit. But with acetic, ascorbic, citric acid and the like added, could be worse than minor.

But of course the main issue is why we lose some 40% plus of the nic even from a 'perfect' e-liquid.

Btw, thought you were taking the evening off

 

[DVap]

DVap - exactly

This would likely be a minor factor; but one that could potentially make the newer, purer liquids that bit better in terms of buzz/hit. But with acetic, ascorbic, citric acid and the like added, could be worse than minor.

But of course the main issue is why we lose some 40% plus of the nic even from a 'perfect' e-liquid.

Btw, thought you were taking the evening off

I took her evening off. It's necessary sometimes that she thinks she's the most important thing going. She, of course, is... but damned if me knowing that and her believing it amount to the same thing. Now that she's asleep, I've returned to less important things.

 

[kinabaloo]

I seem to be here a lot is because my work is online so it's just a matter of flipping browser pages.

 

[exogenesis]

I see you are begining to realize why I was so interested in the pH of the e liquid and its form in the determining nic thread. It plays a large role in efficiency. I'm not the ony one that has speculated that e liquid should be more basic for mucous adsorption.

Also, Johnson Creek on the label in front of me ( the Original Formula) not only states citric acid, but vinegar also.

Judging from what we've seen I don't think the majority of juices
could generally get more basic (just from the freebase nicotine).

If the vapour goes to pH 9+ to 10 when it meets the moisture in your
mouth/lungs then adding extra caustic won't do much (nicotine absorbtion effectiveness-wise).

Does the label say how much citric & acetic ?

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Kin. I strongly suspect that the fruity flavours in all juices are
'smell-alikes' (or taste-alikes) rather than actually fruit juice derived.
NickOTeen could probably give a whole load of details about the actual
chemicals involved.

I have no idea what's in the Chinese juices, but the DV juices use mostly distilled natural extracts and/or nature-identical compounds, stabilised in PG or glycerol.
I try to avoid artificial flavourings where possible, though a few are unavoidable (how else vegan chicken?) It's rarely (well, actually never,) possible to get flavour suppliers to divulge their exact recipes and methods, and every last constituent (the natural extracts probably contain thousands of trace volatiles from the source plants in question anyway,) but I make sure all my flavours come from European suppliers who comply with all the EEC regulations governing food flavourings (one reason I'm light on tobacco-flavour juices - alas, adding a potent source of toxic chemicals, in the form of crude tobacco extracts, to food or pharmaceuticals is not technically legal AFAIUI.)

One thing I'm a little curious about - I hear other juice manufacturers claiming they produce pharmaceutically pure juice, and stating that their PG is USP-grade (and of course I welcome that,) but I can't help noticing that their nicotine is described as just "99% pure". Now, I'm not knocking other juice producers, but does their nicotine comply to USP or EP grade like mine (which complies with both standards, and is produced under cGMP conditions)?
I kinda guess not, or I'd expect them to state it, as we do. But doesn't it seem pretty obvious that the quality of the nicotine is going to be the stick the FDA choose to beat the industry with, not the quality of the blander excipients?

99% pure reagent grade nicotine could be 1% polonium-210 for all we know (of course I know it's not, that's just an example,) it sounds like a reassuring number, but it really doesn't mean anything regarding its pharmaceutical safety.

Anyway, keep up the good work guys - this really is a fascinating thread, and the titration test is a breakthrough in being able to hold suppliers accountable for their juices. The most exciting development I've seen in a long time!

 

[kinabaloo]

Good point NickOTeen. I have been using the term '99%' to indicate the newer juices - but it's not the appropriate wording. 'USP / EP grade nicotine produced under cGMP conditions' is rather long though. Any ideas on a short term that could be used? 'Second generation' (defined as above) ? Would just USP / EP grade be sufficient to make the distinction (as a shorthand)?

 

[Scottes]

But doesn't it seem pretty obvious that the quality of the nicotine is going to be the stick the FDA choose to beat the industry with, not the quality of the blander excipients?

I'd expect them to stomp down on the inhalation of artificial flavorings (vanillin, diacetyl, etc.) as well as Vegetable Glycerin, etc, etc. Luckily the inhalation of PG has been tested. But I'd bet that nothing else in e-juice has been tested for inhalation.

 

[kinabaloo]

I'd expect them to stomp down on the inhalation of artificial flavorings (vanillin, diacetyl, etc.) as well as Vegetable Glycerin, etc, etc. Luckily the inhalation of PG has been tested. But I'd bet that nothing else in e-juice has been tested for inhalation.

The biggest unknown is what becomes of the lost nicotine - as what compounds some of that becomes in the vapor.

The use of pharmaceutical grade nicotine (the term I will use for now) removes, to indetectable levels, tobacco sourced impurities/toxins such as TSNAs. This is a good step, but possibly not the most important. The FDA study showed these as comparable to those in NRTs, even without the nic preparation being the latest type. The degradation of half the nicotine is the main concern.