Has anybody read this at Totally Wicked?

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DVap

Nicotiana Alchemia
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I have 4 bottles of that unflavoured 36mg,
probably all from the same batch,
maybe I should test the other 3 as well?

The additional data points would be welcomed.

If nothing else, if the bottles are all from the same batch, it should be apparent as I fully expect your implementation of this procedure to be capable of generating results within >5% of the actual value. On the other hand, if you have multiple batches, I expect that will be apparent as well, and I'll be looking hard for a 36 mg result for the 36 mg unflavored.
 

exogenesis

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OK DVap will do, probably tomorrow evening.

Sun, no aggro intended here, just a polite request to do what most
other people do & use the forum in a 'usual' way.

Kin. I not having a go at you personally, don't go all whatever,
it really does make a difference if everybody has 'equal goes'
like a conversation really. Things like multiple sequential posts sort of say
'hey look at me' and put people off a bit (it's heavily discouraged
by many forum communities).
Anyway sorry if I upset you, I'm only being honest.

Edit: perhaps I should have done this via PM
 
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I disagree.

I put a lot of thought into those posts over about an hour, editing them a number of times.

Despite what you think, I'm not interesting in post count. I'm just interested in this topic.

The truth is you have taken a pop at me many times over many months. I don't know what your problem really is. So just put me on the ignore list; easy.

On the first page of this Scottes posted 3 times in a row. So what, people are enthusiastic. It's only personal attacks that I don't like to see.

Like the silly picture just a week ago. As half the nic is lost in the atty why not consider separating the nic delivery from the vaping ... but your reponse was only a picture with intent to ridicule.

Even so, I appreciated what you have done; for example #83 "Exo - nice charts. Shows that the DVap method gives a clear determination". Not much to 'wade through' there.

And you were not here at all for some months a while back. So how can you talk about 'conversation'?
 
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Tom09

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Interesting thread, to say the least. E-cigs and liquid constantly evolve, including transparency and knowledge of this stuff. This kind of basic testing of nic potency here is well suited to push this product towards the even better. Many thanks DVap and Exo for your interest and active efforts. Combination of your independent work does generate much confidence in DVap’s method and validity of the results. And thanks, too, to all who contribute their thoughts and expressions of enthusiasm, helping much to sharpen the view.
 
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DVap

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Gentlemen,

You are both within your right: One to post in the manner he chooses, the other to prefer otherwise. You are also both within your right to have a go in public, but public (at least this member of public) wishes you would take this and subsequent disagreements to PM.

The odds of either one of you "winning" is likely nil. That being the case, I recommend tolerance on both sides... the alternative is the inability of two astute observers to coexist on the same thread, and the resultant loss would be suffered by those in this community who come to share and learn. You don't have to be friends, but we need you both as voices here, sometimes in the same place at the same time.

Tolerance, gentlemen.
 

exogenesis

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Thanks for being interested Tom09,
DVap definately has the vast majority of credits here and
on the other nic. determination thread(s) too.

Yes, I understand DVap :), no disruption is intended here,
wish I hadn't mentioned it now, but it's was only a simple question of 'reasonable use'.

er...steady-on Kin
"The truth is you have taken a pop at me many times over many months."
eh???, not going to bother, if I'd known you were this sensitive I wouldn't have.
Please just calm down.
 
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DVap

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Gotta correct myself on something I said about the nicotine weight used for titration. I was pretty tired when I said that using 406 mg of nicotine assures a razor sharp endpoint. This is not so much the case as using 406 mg of nicotine vs 0.1 N acid assures the endpoint will be out around 25 mL of acid, such that if there is a 0.5 mL range in which the endpoint definitely occurs, the resulting uncertainty range is quite small. Example: If the true end point is at 25.0 mL, and the range (due to uncertainty of judging the color change or exact meter endpoint) is 24.75 - 25.25 mL, this corresponds to a nicotine range, in this case from 397.5 - 413.8 mg. With the actual amount being 406 mg, the % range is 99-101%.

(Truth is, I've not titrated with a meter in over 20 years. I suspect there is an effective lower limit (for titration with indicator and 0.1N acid, maybe around 5 mg total nicotine... I've gotten good results down at 5 mg, and don't feel like pushing it further.)
 
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Vaporer

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Away..
This thread and the Determining nic thread have come so far from the begining.
There has been great work done, improvements made and repeatable tests done with repeatable outcomes.
Many were blind and the results speak for themselves.
There have been quite a few good questions, suggestions and input form many others.
It all helps find the truth and can open doors for a vast number of things.

I have nothing at all against TW. I just saw youtube reviews in my neophyte area of vaping and all said the same thing about the peppery taste. They did say it kicked like a mule. I look for flavor and nic effect. So, it just didnt appeal to me. I have gotten some good hardware deals from them in the past on thier sales.

Consistancy is a good thing. Some people try to and successfully cut back thier nic levels via vaping. In the instance of buying 24mg, being totally happy with it and still getting a good hit....well.if it's actually 30mg.....this isn't good.

I've asked many suppliers why 0 nic flavored cost the same 48mg flavored.
Always the same answer. It cost them the same. I think thats odd, always have.
No price break if ordered in flavorless either.
One would think that there should be some price brake in some of the combinations.
 
This thread and the Determining nic thread have come so far from the begining.
There has been great work done, improvements made and repeatable tests done with repeatable outcomes.
Many were blind and the results speak for themselves.
There have been quite a few good questions, suggestions and input form many others.
It all helps find the truth and can open doors for a vast number of things.

I have nothing at all against TW. I just saw youtube reviews in my neophyte area of vaping and all said the same thing about the peppery taste. They did say it kicked like a mule. I look for flavor and nic effect. So, it just didnt appeal to me. I have gotten some good hardware deals from them in the past on thier sales.

Consistancy is a good thing. Some people try to and successfully cut back thier nic levels via vaping. In the instance of buying 24mg, being totally happy with it and still getting a good hit....well.if it's actually 30mg.....this isn't good.

I've asked many suppliers why 0 nic flavored cost the same 48mg flavored.
Always the same answer. It cost them the same. I think thats odd, always have.
No price break if ordered in flavorless either.
One would think that there should be some price brake in some of the combinations.

The nic is the most expensive ingredient, if any. But all the overheads of running the business and storage and doing the transaction are greater still. Even so, the 0% nic should be cheaper. But why buy that when you can make it? In most cases achieve a good result. But the pros might have a few secret recipes worth paying for ;)

Re TW, of course I feel the same. To me this is an interesting puzzle above all. Juices that are out by 20% is not good, but could be worse (standards agencies would take a much dimmer view though, and for that reason it is rather serious). But almost certainly a temporary issue now fixed. TW have been forward thinking, and the whole production undergoing improvements now, with different sources.

btw, afaik, the peppery taste is the nic.
 
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Generic

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<snip!>

I've asked many suppliers why 0 nic flavored cost the same 48mg flavored.
Always the same answer. It cost them the same. I think thats odd, always have.
No price break if ordered in flavorless either.
One would think that there should be some price brake in some of the combinations.

I received a price list yesterday from a chinese manufacturer that indeed does increase in price as nicotine content increases.

This was not from a retailer- this is from a wholesale manufacturer for bulk 1L/25L.

This leads me to think that retailers are either grabbing a few "free" points on low-nic juice OR it just makes thinkgs a little simpler for them charging once price no matter the nic-content. Probably a little of both.

*shrugs*

Oh and hey- thanks to you Chem guys for taking the time to do those beaker and graduated cylinder things that y'all do for us- this has been a VERY informative thread.

-Generic
 

DVap

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I've asked many suppliers why 0 nic flavored cost the same 48mg flavored. Always the same answer. It cost them the same. I think thats odd, always have. No price break if ordered in flavorless either. One would think that there should be some price brake in some of the combinations.

In a 36 mg liquid at 30 mL, the supplier's nicotine cost is probably a few dollars. So the difference between 30 mL of 0 mg and 36 mg might be a few dollars max attributable to the nicotine. So, essentially, but not entirely, this is a true statement. The suppliers, I think, give some and take some, coming up with a single price that allows them to avoid a nightmarish pricing structure.
 
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DVap

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Just a thought here.

Since this thread does single out TW, and this isn't an e-liquid review area, once Exo and I get through with the remaining tests we're planning (Exo with several bottles of TW 36 mg unflavored he's had for awhile, and me with some 36 mg unflavored I just ordered along with the 54 mg PI from Mister), and once the discussion has died down a bit, perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to ask Sun Vaporer to close the thread to new messages... thus allowing it to bubble down the list, and not be bumped to the top every time someone straggles a new message in through the months ahead. I think this would probably be more fair to TW, particularly if their newer 36 mg unflavored and their 54 mg PI test on the money.

Opinions?
 
DVap - sounds good to me.

With perhaps just one or two exceptions I think most people are not unduly worried or over-reacting; most understand that the industry is still finding its feet.

Carry on with the nicotine determination and 'missing nicotine' in a new thread. Was reading some of the old threads on this (spring 09) but there's not been that experimental data to take things forward.
 

Shining Wit

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Some point to reiterate:

1. The 18 mg lab result on the 36 mg liquid, I believe, should be discounted. The format and content of the lab report doesn't instill me with confidence. Does a dodgy report equal a dodgy lab? I don't know, but I'm giving TW the benefit of the doubt on this one.
3. As kin pointed out, a company that wishes to survive will learn from their miscues.

There are few threads that keep me interested enough to read almost 100 posts but I do have a vested interest in this subject. The report might have thrown up an embarrassing question but that is not the real point.
DVap is right in discounting the report, but has also missed citing the real reason why it should be dismissed. If you read the report carefully you will find two glaring facts:

1. The report is a 'Contents Analysis' rather than a laboratory test on liquid under vaping conditions. This falls way short of what is being demanded in the industry and of how the FDA conducted their tests around June this year.

2. Most importantly, the lab used is UKAS approved (United Kingdom Accredition Service) which means they should know what they are doing. However, all of the results in the report are followed by the letter 'N', which, if you check their introduction to the report, means that those results are not UKAS accredited. That in itself makes the report worthless and I expect that TW will have found a different lab by now.

Testing properly can be expensive but it is absolutely necessary if we are to move the industry forward and upward. We have found a University Laboratory that has the very latest NMR equipment and whose staff understand the whole process as well as some of the politics. I'll post a link shortly to the latest report on the UK made ECOpure to give others an idea of what happens. The test was almost identical to the FDA test and came up with far different results than the FDA did when they tested Chinese liquids.
Every company will have problems along the way, we are pioneers, but it is being able to overcome them and continue to forge the way forward that counts.
John.
 

Vaporer

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Away..
I agree. This isn't a bash TW thread.
I'd say the truth be known this same thing has happened to all the suppliers at one time or another.
TW happened to have thiers tested and posted the results, low and behold someone read them!
So in all actuality, they lit thier own fire attempts to have good QC measures.

Kin, my only question would be if it is the nic why seasoned vapers/reviewers don't say the same thing bout other suppliers they review? You can see why I shyed away from them in the begining.
 
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DVap

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Testing properly can be expensive but it is absolutely necessary if we are to move the industry forward and upward. We have found a University Laboratory that has the very latest NMR equipment and whose staff understand the whole process as well as some of the politics. I'll post a link shortly to the latest report on the UK made ECOpure to give others an idea of what happens. The test was almost identical to the FDA test and came up with far different results than the FDA did when they tested Chinese liquids. Every company will have problems along the way, we are pioneers, but it is being able to overcome them and continue to forge the way forward that counts.

As I recall, TW wasn't particularly happy with that report, not because it contained a controversial result, but because they paid a lot and received a very questionable report.

If the UKAS is anything like NELAP in the U.S., and I suspect they are, then they do serve an important purpose. If you're with a lab that knows what it's doing, and doesn't do the things that NELAP works to prevent, you see them as more intent on making sure you're not stupid or cheating.. I.E. Making things harder than they ought to be for the competent in the name of battling the incompetent. In short, to bad labs, NELAP is toxic, to good labs, NELAP is a pain in the .... I have enjoyed on a number of occasions telling their auditors or auditors from other entities that the program is wrong-headed about a number of things, amid much squirming and fidgiting by our local QA/QC Coordinator. I am good at getting out of doing audits, they would rather trot out the custodian than have me talking to auditors. ;)

Analytical techniques such as NMR, IR, and GC/MS are all useful in assessing the purity of a material. (The NMR of your nicotine and Glycerin look quite clean, BTW). TW appears to have moved to high quality sourcing and testing as well with their PI liquid. I see it as a sign of the evolution and maturing of the industry, as well as of a healthy competition going on over there in the UK between TW and Intellicig. The concept of the supplier maintaining control over the quality and purity of e-liquid ingredients is not firmly entrenched, but it is gaining a foothold both in the UK and in the US. It is, as they say, the road ahead.

As far as the FDA testing of Chinese liquids, I've been vocal in my assessment that the FDA went out of their way to present these liquids in the worst light possible. I've seen that video they put out of one of their chemists discussing the testing, and it was nothing more or less than a hatchet-job on e-cigs.

I started posting on these forums because after lurking for quite awhile, I found an abundance of curiosity, but very few answers about the chemistry behind e-liquids. My initial intent here was to make folks aware that anyone with enough desire to pull together the required materials could assess e-liquid potency at home. No expensive labs, no waiting for results. This has resulted in readers who have followed the discussions (particularly in the nicotine determination thread) becoming better educated and able to ask more of the right questions and to refine the expectations to which they hold their suppliers.

If I have been a bit critical of TW here, it is perhaps because they have mastered the art of promotion more thoroughly than the science of quality control vis a vis labeled potency, at least in the past. I am not interested in putting their feet to the fire, only to state it plainly to the industry that customers pay for potency and we must be able to trust the liquids we purchase to deliver the stated potency since it directly affects our decisions in how we mix down the concentrates we purchase for our consumption. The fact that purity is becoming better appreciated by the industry, in addition to potency, well that's nothing but a good thing.

Given enough cash to buy enough samples, I could probably uncover valid objections to most any supplier's e-liquid offerings. I fully expect that with time, I will find less and less to be concerned about. So, I suppose my intent here is to help "grease the skids" on the way forward.
 
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Mister

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Last post before sleep ...

A long shot but an interesting thought that ties in with the old debate about the greater efficacy/effect of analogs.

Something in tobacco helps the nicotine ring true in the tests (as perhaps it does in analogs). Hence the tobacco flavor scoring the 'correct' result. DeKang's liquids may all be of the tobacco flavored variety (tobacco + x flavor). Without that 'extra', the nic doesn't get counted properly.

Possible?

I'm doubtful about this. Analogs seem to be very inefficient in terms of delivering nicotine in terms of the amount present in the source (tobacco) vs. the amount arriving to our bodies. And anecdotally the 24mg Dekang Winston I have doesn't feel as strong to me as Platinum Ice diluted to the same strength.

Another factor to keep in mind when comparing tobacco to vaped fluids: the method of delivery counts for a lot. The publicized nicotine ratings for cigarettes seem to already discount the amount lost in burning the cigarette, and it is a very high factor. We're only beginning to learn the amount lost in vaporizing (thanks DVap!) and it appears to be much lower.

The important things to understand are, I think,

1) How much of the source nicotine is actually being received by our body.

2) How does the way that nicotine is being delivered affect our body's response.

It seems to me that the tobacco industry has made great progress on both questions over the years. They're labelling their products based on (1), i.e. the amount we receive (and perhaps absorb, what I've read isn't clear in that regard), and they've also learned to add stuff to the tobacco to improve (2).

OTOH the e-cig industry is very young. Products are labelled according to the original content vs. (1) the delivered content. DVap and Exo have made awesome progress in determining the real values of this. And still, after that, (2) will be the next question. There is anecdotal evidence that it is different in some way for vaping vs. smoking.
 

DVap

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And anecdotally the 24mg Dekang Winston I have doesn't feel as strong to me as Platinum Ice diluted to the same strength.

Mister, I've heard this over and over. PI, diluted to the same concentration, seems stronger than other liquids. Since TW emphatically states that 54 mg PI contains nothing other than nicotine and PG, I've been attributing this to psychology more than physiology.

I've not used PI, but I have regularly used something very comparable, the 48 mg unflavored from myfreedomsmokes which is also a mixture of only nicotine and propylene glycol. I can, with absolute confidence, say that the MFS 48 mg is indeed at 48 mg. It is also very clean. The PG holds USP, EP, and Food Chemical certifications. I've determined the source nicotine in concentrations as high as 50%, and even at this extremely high concentration, the nicotine is crystal-clear, indicating a highly refined and un-oxidized material. It is, quite simply, comparable to PI when diluted to the same concentration. When diluting it to concentrations matching other liquids, including Dekang, which I also confidently know are at the stated concentrations, I don't perceive the dilutions from 48 mg as being any stronger.

The only non-psychological reason I can fathom for PI to seen stronger, diluted to the same nicotine concentration as another liquid, would therefore be physiological. Once I receive the sample of PI you've been kind enough to arrange to send to me, I expect to eliminate the physiological possibility... that PI is more potent than labeled.
 
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