Has anybody read this at Totally Wicked?

[Nick O'Teen]

Good point NickOTeen. I have been using the term '99%' to indicate the newer juices - but it's not the appropriate wording. 'USP / EP grade nicotine produced under cGMP conditions' is rather long though. Any ideas on a short term that could be used? 'Second generation' (defined as above) ? Would just USP / EP grade be sufficient to make the distinction (as a shorthand)?

I tend to mentally shorthand it to just "USP", if only because I've never seen a "nicotine EP" in my life, and have a general preference for US standards over European ones (I'm just an unreconstructed Anglophile I guess! ) All the pharmaceutical producers seem to produce dual-standard nicotine: it always (as far as my experience goes,) complies with both USP and EP standards.
And without wanting to brag, I believe the DV range is the ONLY ejuice currently in production that uses truly pharmaceutical grade USP/EP nicotine.
If it doesn't say USP on the bottle, it almost certainly isn't USP in the bottle. And despite looking at a lot of other manufacturers and dealers' websites, the string "USP" is conspicuous by its absence (anywhere near the word "nicotine" anyway.) The string "L-nicotine" is sometimes conspicuous by its presence - this is a laboratory reagent (with useful chiral consistency for research purposes,) NOT a pharmaceutically approved agent.

I'll not point fingers at any of the culprits, and nor do I want to sound like I'm trying to point-score or advertise my own wares, but my opinion is that a lot of the hype that's out there is not verifiable or supported by any documentation. And "USP" is an easy bandwagon to jump on if you're only going to source the diluents to the highest spec, and pick up the active ingredients more cheaply, formulated to lower standards, from Sigma-Aldritch, or somesuch chemco - fine as they are for lab use and research, they don't pretend that their products are approved for human use. Indeed, most explicitly prohibit this use of them in their terms and conditions.
No chemco is ever going to approve non-USP/EP nicotine for pharmaceutical use, period. So if you're using it, you're wasting your money - you might as well use Chinese insecticide for all that it's going to enhance your credibility in the eyes of the regulators.

I don't want to sound like I'm trumpeting my own product, really, but it's depressing that so many juice makers and sellers are giving the FDA what is in effect a gift-wrapped stick to beat them with. Could they have got away with a hatchet job like that conference and biased testing that precipitated the SE & Njoy v. FDA legal case if pharma-grade USP juice was the norm?

The simple answer is no.

Please, fellow juicemongers, switch to USP! Now! for your own sake, and for the sake of the whole industry, stop giving the FDA all the excuses it needs to steam in here and try to crush the entire technology before it's even out of its cradle.
The FDA will have a MUCH harder time of persecuting vapers if our juice contains demonstrably pharmaceutical quality active ingredients, and fully food-grade flavourings; if it's professionally produced in premises working towards PS9001 certification; if it's properly labelled and child-proofed; it's accompanied by published certificates of analysis - this ought to be the norm, NOT the exception!

 

[kinabaloo]

you might as well use Chinese insecticide for all that it's going to enhance your credibility in the eyes of the regulators.

Don't know if that was the intention but it sounds like an unjustified slur on Chinese manufacturers.

 

[DVap]

Nick,

All good points, though I suspect ultimately moot.

If an outright ban doesn't come down from the FDA, I can't see them not sticking their fingers in the pot and making the manufacture/distribution anything short of an onerous minefield of regulation/taxation such that the pharma and tobacco industries will be, by design, the only players left standing.

The regulation likely won't say, "You'd better be using pharma ingredients", it will say "You can't do it, tough luck. Trust your friends at pharma and tobacco".

Gub'mint juice anyone?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

DVap - Interesting. Clears up the slight tint as havng nothing to do with nicotine (necessarily; as nic oxidises it would impart a golden tint i believe). Any idea why PG can have that pink tinge?

All the skin toners and such that are based on PG are always clear, so I thought perhaps it's an nteraction with the nic creating the slight color.

edit:

here's a photo of a pre-Ice sample that I took on receiving it:

New juice range from TW to be launched soon

Just a note on tint... PG manufactured for use in food processing plant equipment is tinted as a visual aid incase of equip. malfunction/leakage into product. It is approved food grade, but tinted.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Don't know if that was the intention but it sounds like an unjustified slur on Chinese manufacturers.

Sorry, that was a bit harsh perhaps - but that's how the regulatory authorities and pharma-producers are going to represent it - it's how they're describing it now (and I have heard far worse with my own ears from those in the industry.)
I know that Chinese technology can be implemented with high quality QA - in several electronic fields they're leading the world (I just bought a Hanvon ereader, and I have to say it outclasses Sony massively!) but that model of business is conspicuously not being implemented in this field (and god knows, this field needs it more than most!)

I'm sorry if it sounded like a more general slur against Chinese manufacturing technology in general, I only intended it to apply narrowly to those manufacturers of ejuice who are causing the whole vaping world a great deal of aggravation ATM. Sadly they are in China - that's where the monopoly's been up until now. I'm sure they're a minority, but alas they're the minority we find ourselves forced to deal with. And as they cut corners to maximize profits, the FDA's coming up behind, with the clear intent of sweeping us away before we get too settled.

I'm sorry if I sounded anti-Chinese - really, I'm not. But I am anti-fast-buck-merchant.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

Nick,

All good points, though I suspect ultimately moot.

If an outright ban doesn't come down from the FDA, I can't see them not sticking their fingers in the pot and making the manufacture/distribution anything short of an onerous minefield of regulation/taxation such that the pharma and tobacco industries will be, by design, the only players left standing.

The regulation likely won't say, "You'd better be using pharma ingredients", it will say "You can't do it, tough luck. Trust your friends at pharma and tobacco".

Gub'mint juice anyone?

That could happen in the US, yes - I'm afraid it probably could.

I think it would be much harder over here - we stand at the very least a fighting chance of fending vested Big Business interests off, IF the industry gets its act together, and stops selling dubious potions of wildly varying composition.
I really hope it's not too big an IF, but it gets bigger the longer juice sellers ignore the problem. And if it gets too big, then even an outright ban's not unthinkable here.

 

[kinabaloo]

Sorry, that was a bit harsh perhaps - but that's how the regulatory authorities and pharma-producers are going to represent it - it's how they're describing it now (and I have heard far worse with my own ears from those in the industry.)
I know that Chinese technology can be implemented with high quality QA - in several electronic fields they're leading the world (I just bought a Hanvon ereader, and I have to say it outclasses Sony massively!) but that model of business is conspicuously not being implemented in this field (and god knows, this field needs it more than most!)

I'm sorry if it sounded like a more general slur against Chinese manufacturing technology in general, I only intended it to apply narrowly to those manufacturers of ejuice who are causing the whole vaping world a great deal of aggravation ATM. Sadly they are in China - that's where the monopoly's been up until now. I'm sure they're a minority, but alas they're the minority we find ourselves forced to deal with. And as they cut corners to maximize profits, the FDA's coming up behind, with the clear intent of sweeping us away before we get too settled.

I'm sorry if I sounded anti-Chinese - really, I'm not. But I am anti-fast-buck-merchant.

The juices that did have a problem in the FDA study were not by the major Chinese liquid manufacturer (DeKang, I believe). And besides, in those cases the merchants (US?) are the ones responsible for setting the quality standards of what they have manufactured.

On another point, food standards are not sufficient - 'vaping standards' are required. We don't eat or drink the juice. What is needed is testing for what is heat stable and dry-residue free. A flavoring like citric acid can't pass this test. VG may not pass it either. But most worryingly of all is whether nicotine can pass it.

Zero toxins is an impossible target of course. And the DEG sample aside, the liquids the FDA tested came out pretty well. But when the vapor, as opposed to the liquid, is fully analysed there could well be more issues to deal with. Whether they turn out out to be relatively safe in terms of levels or worrying, we just don't know at the moment.

 

[DVap]

That could happen in the US, yes - I'm afraid it probably could.

I think it would be much harder over here - we stand at the very least a fighting chance of fending vested Big Business interests off, IF the industry gets its act together, and stops selling dubious potions of wildly varying composition.
I really hope it's not too big an IF, but it gets bigger the longer juice sellers ignore the problem. And if it gets too big, then even an outright ban's not unthinkable here.

Nick, here in the US, we are quite conditioned to expect this sort of thing. A government of, by, and for big money.

I'm not sure if a liquid producer here could even inquire into obtaining pharma nicotine without getting told to piss off. Not to say that the UK doesn't have some of it's own onerous regulations, but seeing as TW has obtained the good stuff, the roadblocks over there are, apparently, not insurmountable.

 

[kinabaloo]

A government of, by, and for big money.

lol

succinct and so true.

 

[Saints]

The juices that did have a problem in the FDA study were not by the major Chinese liquid manufacturer (DeKang, I believe).

I do not mean to derail the thread and a big thank you to all who have put time into this thread, but I had a quick question. I thought I had read somewhere that if you have a juice bottle that has YNDK on it that it was a Dekang product and resold by different companies with their label, is this true?

Again, very interesting thread and thank you to all who have contributed!

 

[DVap]

I do not mean to derail the thread and a big thank you to all who have put time into this thread, but I had a quick question. I thought I had read somewhere that if you have a juice bottle that has YNDK on it that it was a Dekang product and resold by different companies with their label, is this true?

Again, very interesting thread and thank you to all who have contributed!

YNDK printed faintly on the narrow smooth band at the botton of the cap (below the ridged grip section) indeed indicates Dekang. There's nothing to stop a redistributor from separating a Dekang product from the bottle that identifies it as a Dekang product, (or even really from putting a non-Dekang product into an empty Dekang bottle)... but short of imagining all the possibilities, YNDK = Dekang.

 

[supertrkre2812]

Is Dekang juice supposed to be the best or something?
It is like you are using it as a base line or something.

 

[DVap]

Dekang is probably the most consistent and certainly most widely available Chinese liquid. As far as pre-mixed liquids, I consider them a competent manufacturer.

As far as the best, I'll step back from that one... The "high-end" liquid market is still quite young and there is a lot of room for juice-makers to step up and meet the demand.

 

[Nick O'Teen]

The juices that did have a problem in the FDA study were not by the major Chinese liquid manufacturer (DeKang, I believe). And besides, in those cases the merchants (US?) are the ones responsible for setting the quality standards of what they have manufactured.

That's true of course, but surely none of the merchants specify widely variable nicotine levels and misflavoured juice. I'm sure TW's specification was for 36mg juice that contains 36mg/ml of high quality nicotine.
What they're receiving is apparently up to 20% variation (over and under,) peppery tasting nicotine that is probably industrial grade single-fractionated product, and a large proportion of mislabelled flavours and leaking bottles.
Unfortunately these issues seem to be endemic - they're certainly not confined to TW.

Merchants can set all the standards they like, but it is clearly the norm in this business that those standards are being routinely ignored by the Chinese manufacturers, perhaps because it has (up till now) been very difficult and expensive to catch them out. That might seem like good news in the short term for western manufacturers (like me,) but it's still bad news for the whole industry in general, and that outweighs any cheer I might take from the situation. If the industry doesn't get its act together soon, we're all going to be in the same boat when draconian regulation and prohibition is imposed by panicky authorities.

On another point, food standards are not sufficient - 'vaping standards' are required. We don't eat or drink the juice. What is needed is testing for what is heat stable and dry-residue free. A flavoring like citric acid can't pass this test. VG may not pass it either. But most worryingly of all is whether nicotine can pass it.

In the long term I totally agree, but in the short term food-grade flavourings are acceptable inasmuch as they are exactly what the established NRT industry uses in their approved products, not just in gum, but in those crappy plastic inhalators, where the flavours are specifically inhaled - just like in our ecigs (I know at least one of the flavour companies where they get them from.)
There are no agreed flavour quality standards higher than EC-approved/FCC in place that pharma/NRT products can comply with. (EDIT: though they clearly restrict their choice of flavours to a much more limited subset of all possible ones than ejuice manufacturers (just mint or "fruit" I think.) I've certainly never seen Absinthe or Tiramisu-flavoured nicorette inhalators I assume this is because they don't want to make it too attractive a smoking alternative - precisely the reason why ecigs have such a higher quit rate than NRT products: they actually do provide an attractive and satisfying alternative.
But it is possible that this choice may be partly dictated by a stringently self-imposed safety standard designed to avoid problematic compounds like diacetyl. /EDIT)

Zero toxins is an impossible target of course. And the DEG sample aside, the liquids the FDA tested came out pretty well. But when the vapor, as opposed to the liquid, is fully analysed there could well be more issues to deal with. Whether they turn out out to be relatively safe in terms of levels or worrying, we just don't know at the moment.

Further testing is a must, but in the meantime it is perfectly feasible to hope to match the quality standards that govern existing NRT products (including inhalators.)

Sorry I've contributed to steering this thread rather off-topic - I'll let you guys get back to the refinement and development of test methodology. I believe it's crucially important research, and I wish more power to your elbows.

 

[DVap]

Nick,

Some good points throughout.

Inasmuch as it is possible to source starting materials to pharma grade, and to establish manufacturing and testing standards, not everyone will play as long as the there's a market for "brown" nicotine.

One might generously assume that the regulating authorities would "sweep up the bottom feeders", leaving the quality outfits alone, but in reality, they're more likely to paint the whole thing with a broad brush, leaving a set of regulations in place that favor the tobacco/pharma industries to the exclusion of all others.

 

[kinabaloo]

NickOTeen - are you saying (rather than surmising) that TW does not do any mixing / bottling; that all the 30ml bottles arrive sealed and ready to go?

The thing about food-grade flavors is that in inhalers the flavorings are not heated. Any flavoring that cannot vaporise in the e-cig is going to 'burn' there. It's a key difference.

btw, to me, nicotine is quite peppery in taste.

 

[Þornbjörg]

Since it was discussed earlier in this thread, I'd figure I'd chime in here.

DVap, I've assembled my own nicotine test kit, consisting of distilled water, .12N Sulfuric Acid, and Bromo-Blue. Yes, I cleared my math with you in another thread on here regarding .12N vs .1N... its 19.4712mg/mL displacement.

I tested all my liquids, and for the most part, readings were within 1mg/mL of rated. This included several 24mg and a few 18mg, and a friend's 16mg rated liquids.

There was one stark contrast to these tests...

Totally Wicked ELiquid's 36mg Menthol

It tested as about 29.5mg/mL, after running the test again (for a total cost of 2mL of liquid from my 30mL bottle), the second test came fractionally closer to 30mg/mL.

The bottle was purchased Sep 29th, delivered Oct 3rd.

It vapes well, and has great vapor production, but I'm confident in saying their nicotine level is well below what it should be.

 

[DVap]

Since it was discussed earlier in this thread, I'd figure I'd chime in here.

DVap, I've assembled my own nicotine test kit, consisting of distilled water, .12N Sulfuric Acid, and Bromo-Blue. Yes, I cleared my math with you in another thread on here regarding .12N vs .1N... its 19.4712mg/mL displacement.

I tested all my liquids, and for the most part, readings were within 1mg/mL of rated. This included several 24mg and a few 18mg, and a friend's 16mg rated liquids.

There was one stark contrast to these tests...

Totally Wicked ELiquid's 36mg Menthol

It tested as about 29.5mg/mL, after running the test again (for a total cost of 2mL of liquid from my 30mL bottle), the second test came fractionally closer to 30mg/mL.

The bottle was purchased Sep 29th, delivered Oct 3rd.

It vapes well, and has great vapor production, but I'm confident in saying their nicotine level is well below what it should be.

Thanks Þornbjörg,

By all accounts, TW's is asking their red label supplier some uncomfortable questions, and "All is well", will not suffice as an answer this time. This supplier, to put it mildly, has some explaining to do.

Unless they can come up with "the x-factor", a plausible explanation as to why both 24 and 36 mg should determine essentially alike, one low the other high... well, we'll have to leave it to TW to decide what it means.

I'm looking at TW's red lable levels, unless I've missed something, they offer the following levels in addition to zero.

8 mg, 11 mg, 18 mg, 24 mg, 36 mg.

If the odd overlap of 24 mg and 36 mg liquids is indicative of Shenanigans being pulled on TW and their customers by the manufacturer (and that's still an if), then would a determination find a similar overlap at any of the lower levels, EG, 8 mg, 11 mg, and 18 mg?

To mix 11 and 18 the same would find an average concentration of 14.5 mg, this average represents ~132% at 11 mg, and ~81% at 18 mg. Hmmm.. pretty wide.

I'd be looking at 8 and 11 mg for a similar pattern to the 24 mg & 36 mg results. At 9.5 mg, 8 mg would be at ~119% of label and 11 mg would be at ~86 mg of label. If "shenanigans" are responsible, I.E. the manufacturer cutting corners by mixing 3 instead of 5 levels, then we might well see the same over/under phenomenon testing at 8 and 11 mg as we've seen as 24 and 36 mg.

(Nick, if TW would like this looked at, a number of unflavored 8 and 11 mg samples could be determined. If they want, I'll be happy to do it. It would only require several samples of each at the 5 mL size to accomplish... Contact me via PM if there's interest from TW in having this additional lower level testing done).

[Edit: actually, now that I think about it, by looking at 24 and 36 mg unflavored, there should be no possibility of an 'x-factor', they are, after all, the same liquid at presumably different levels. If one is high and the other is low, that would peg my bogometer far into the red.]

 

[Scottes]

I hope that every e-juice vendor is reading this...


DVap, Exo, anyone - what would it take for an average joe to test nicotine level with a reasonable confidence in accuracy, like you guys are doing with these titration tests? How much equipment and how much training?

I know it's not for everyone - the careless and sloppy shouldn't bother - but is all this something that a careful, accurate individual could do at home? Perhaps the vendors will care enough to test some samples from their vendors.

 

[DVap]

I hope that every e-juice vendor is reading this...


DVap, Exo, anyone - what would it take for an average joe to test nicotine level with a reasonable confidence in accuracy, like you guys are doing with these titration tests? How much equipment and how much training?

I know it's not for everyone - the careless and sloppy shouldn't bother - but is all this something that a careful, accurate individual could do at home? Perhaps the vendors will care enough to test some samples from their vendors.

Actually, early on, before it took on a life of it's own, I started the Nicotine Determination thread precisely to show anyone how to do it. I've spelled out both a detailed precision procedure (takes a good bit on juice) and a simplified approximate (but a good approximation!) procedure (takes much less juice). It's all still there in the thread.