Health Care Reform & the e-cig (a solution that may upset you at first)

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vapordad

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But keep reading, as I put a lot of thought into it. I hope to get some creative thinkers out there to help me out. Might need some research completed, too....also, there are many facets of captialism and economic structure that need delving into, so understand that this is pretty broad. I believe much of it can be accomplished, though. LET THE READING BEGIN (AND THE SUBSEQUENT CAGE MATCH)

I have been putting a lot of objective thought and research into this matter. I acknowledge that I lean more towards the evolution of our country and believe we should refuse to be the only western democracy not to embrace the idea that every citizen, regardless of their station in life, deserves to have the right to receive the best health care.

That said, I have struggled with the current debate and how it is going down, as the winning party needs to use the leverage they have, and stop the political posturing…this is a politically unpopular issue in our current environment, but I don’t think it would be long implemented before it was hailed for its success—(for example, regardless if you like Medicare and Social Security, you want the security of them being there, and are in the mindset of “they need to be fixed, not scrapped”…however, both at the time of being passed initially were also hotly debated issues).

I think Obama should buck politics and force through the right solution—a public only option, regardless of the political fall out and I truly believe, if you read on, that this will help our cause with e-cigarettes in the long run. I have spent time putting my thoughts together to try to make this as concise a post as I can, and I feel strongly about this.

Current issue : FDA (a regulatory authority that is politically appointed, but should be a watchdog for what food and drug products are approved for use based on the safety and common good) wants to ban sale of e-cigarettes.

Current players: Big tobacco, Big Pharma, Big Health Care

What would the public option of health care mean? A huge shift in the corporate and sector base in which companies are the leaders in the capital markets, and thus a big shift in who the largest donors to political campaigns would be.

Why? The players above would be less profitable under a pure public option (certain business lines would be eliminated—private health insurance sales, for example).

What else would be the result of a public option? Each taxpayer would have a vested interest in the health of their fellow taxpayers. Pressure would be huge on smokers, for example, to quit, based on the sheer numbers of health issues associated with them. Therefore, a safer/healthier option would be more admirable than smoking. Harsher laws on tobacco could be passed, but only if the success rate of quitting were higher than the current abysmal levels. If we’re right, and it would seem we are by the number of folks that have quit a long term addiction to cigarettes via the usage of PVs, and our theory is correct that these are healthier for you, we have a very strong argument.

Why the posturing? Right now, politicians can’t afford to piss off the players without a severe reduction in their campaign war chests. This is why the FDA cannot truly follow its charter, because if the politician that appointed me isn’t in office, I’m out a job. But, if the landscape is changed, the new leading industry could take up the slack (this is one option…which doesn’t include the next part of the circular argument).

Rest of argument requires some thinking about tax base…and here is where I may be able to swing some of those leaning more right politically than me.

Taxation vs. Voting vs Political clout

The USA was established, at least in part, because formerly we had taxation without representation. Well, that’s where we are now, too. Although corporations cannot vote in a traditional sense, I believe that they actually have more political clout, as they choose the candidates that the individuals get to vote on.

How do we fix?
Well, technically if corporations pay taxes, they should get some clout (taxation with representation). So, we reverse the rules on taxes. We remove corporate taxes. This should have a huge effect. It should give corporations the means to increase salaries, bonuses and other compensation to its employees (voters), along with the lack of a need for corporations to pay any health insurance premiums—a large expense, just ask your boss or business group head. Yes, some profits will go to the shareholders, but this would be severe trickle down economics. Also, you would immediately increase the base of employers, as foreign corporations would flock here for the lack of taxation—increasing jobs in the US. If done properly, this could be a win-win-win, as more would be employed at a higher wage base. The individual tax rates wouldn’t need to increase, as the tax base would be higher both on existing employees as their income rises, and on newly employed as income starts. Second, the lack of the employee to pay health care premiums or health care costs would increase their amount of disposable income, and that would flow right back into our economy (which is 70% consumer driven).

Now, we reduced corporate stranglehold on our elected officials, so our voting means more, as we are the tax base, and the government is more vested in working for the people, and not the corporations. Gov’t can even increase minimum wage as corporate stronghold is gone, thus assisting in the above working, as opposed to just making the fat cats fatter.

So, Big Tobacco and Big Pharma are no longer in a corporate position to make political pressure (at least not as much). Big Health Care is pretty much gone or severely changed and doesn’t have its clout anymore. So, the politicians can campaign on a more level playing field. All facets of gov’t (including the FDA) are now less susceptible to the corporate sponsorship, as I see it if the corps aren’t being taxed, they can also no longer contribute to campaigns. (no worries about taxation without representation as the taxation part goes away). All Self Regulatory Organizations should be more effective and efficient under such an environment. So in reality, if properly implemented it could make government smaller, tax the individual at the same rates, reduce the taxation on all those business owners and corporations, increase jobs, and increase spending.

In the meantime, our voice is heard more clearly with the FDA as we are pushing a safer product than cigarettes, and then an option can be available for smokers to quit while we pass increasingly harsher anti tobacco laws.
 

Kate51

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Vapordad, I think that is some thought in depth, until we know what the outcome of the postering in Washington is going to look like, we may have to adapt to whatever change (by the people and for the people) comes out of it.
On another thread, I just reminded some people that in Wisconsin, our Power Companies are run as a cooperative, whereas all people who use the service of the company is a share-holder in that company. If at the end of the year, with a 3 year delay, the holders receive a stipend for any profit shown by that company, supported by their customers.
My theory and wish has been to do the same with Health Care Insurance companies who contribute certain areas each at their specialty the same kind of deal. If I buy Catastrophic Insurance and pay my own office calls, no frills, even my own prescriptions if I ever need them, then my payment each month should be affordable and will insure me against catastrophic loss if something awful like an accident or life-threatening illness. So I won't have to bankrupt myself to pay for it all. If I lived and recovered. My family would be protected from loss, I will pay my bill, and all is well that ends well. I hope what the powers-that-be can contribute a system that all can live with without starving to death to do it, and keep the wonderful health care we have at it's most efficient mode of operation, no pun intended. But the state mandates will also probably have to be adjusted, state-to state competition encouraged and regulated by insurance companies, prices eventually could level off and still be able to be progressive and incentives for research and developement stimulated as they always have been. New procedures and drugs research has raised cost more than ever. But I call that progress, better care, faster recoveries, all of that. Plus protect physicians from frivolous assaults, so they can afford to practice, yet protect the patient as well. So much to do....
 

vapordad

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I think serious reform still needs to occur for the everyday person to be able to pay for their own prescriptions and office visits. I like that others are trying to come up with solutions, too. And I like how you keep the "skin in the game" aspect that some find so necessary.

One of the issues, though, is that right now so many people are "happy" with insurance policies that they were very unhappy paying the premiums on until the idea of the government controlling their health care came up. It amazes me how many people buy into the politics of this.
 

b_three

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It seems to me that taxation is only part of the issue. Big Tobacco, Big Pharm, and Big Health Care will still lobby for govt laws and policy changes. Also if we stop taxing corporations the deficit will grow even larger as you will be cutting a substantial portion of the govt revenue. If that is the case we will see schools with less funding and yada yada. Just my opinion.
 

vapordad

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Barenetted. I agree that this is theory, as it depends on a bill addressing many of the large problems we face all at once. My fear is that if we don't face them all, we are putting bandaids on a dam instead of rebuilding or re-fortifying it. Think Rome...Greece...China...other major collapsed powers.


b_three. I understand why you feel that to be the case, because we are so used to it being the way it is, but if there is no financial gain for big companies to lobby, then they won't. We need to cut the incentive. If you take away their ability to manipulate our elected officials through money, and lobby groups become true non-for profit entities educating our government, then we can streamline government. Making gov't agencies more efficient, cutting corp taxes (which would increase the number of corporations in US), forcing increased wages. Removing healthcare expenses for both the employer and employee from premiums, and from the sick from paying the expenses, then we increase the earning to be taxed, and the consumption will increase and municipal revenues will increase, reducing the need for federal aid to municipalities. There will be an adjustment period, and the gov't can still to a temporary increase in bond issuance (don't kid yourself that all plans will require this), but with a true goal of reducing spending -- the other side of the budget equation.
 

denec

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I think serious reform still needs to occur for the everyday person to be able to pay for their own prescriptions and office visits. I like that others are trying to come up with solutions, too. And I like how you keep the "skin in the game" aspect that some find so necessary.

One of the issues, though, is that right now so many people are "happy" with insurance policies that they were very unhappy paying the premiums on until the idea of the government controlling their health care came up. It amazes me how many people buy into the politics of this.

I pay nothing for my prescriptions...all of my prescriptions are covered 100% free...

and my office vists are $15 copay and for specialist are $25 co pay


please leave my health care alone thank you
 

Surf Monkey

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I pay nothing for my prescriptions...all of my prescriptions are covered 100% free...

and my office vists are $15 copay and for specialist are $25 co pay


please leave my health care alone thank you

"100% free?" I guess you don't understand the concept of "free" since the drugs you're getting are actually paid for by both you and others who have the same insurance policy that you do. What do you think premiums are for? The fact that you don't have to pay the pharmacist when you pick up your drugs doesn't mean they're "free."
 

Duckies

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Vapordad,

You make some very salient points. Unfortunately, Big Insurance isn't going to go down without a massive fight.

One thing I would add to this is about your note on insurance costs going down. In addition to health insurance, you can also add car insurance rates (the injury portion) as well as worker's comp. Under a pure single-payer plan, these are no longer needed.

Interesting concept about eliminating corporate taxes, and I would add to that -- take away corporate "personhood" that started in the 1950s. If you included that, I apologize -- I missed it.
 

Duckies

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"100% free?" I guess you don't understand the concept of "free" since the drugs you're getting are actually paid for by both you and others who have the same insurance policy that you do. What do you think premiums are for? The fact that you don't have to pay the pharmacist when you pick up your drugs doesn't mean they're "free."
You mean you aren't on the Big-Pharma-loves-me-best plan?
 

denec

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"100% free?" I guess you don't understand the concept of "free" since the drugs you're getting are actually paid for by both you and others who have the same insurance policy that you do. What do you think premiums are for? The fact that you don't have to pay the pharmacist when you pick up your drugs doesn't mean they're "free."


I pay for a percentage my premiums and my employeer pays for most of mine..

point is medicine is expensive, and i get it for free and i am very happy with my insurance

my point is leave my insurance alone and stop forcing me to use obama care i dont want it
 

Surf Monkey

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my point is leave my insurance alone and stop forcing me to use obama care i dont want it

Then your point is (as usual) meaningless since no one is forcing you to do anything.

Furthermore, you were wrong when you said that you get your prescriptions for free. You pay for them. You pay just as much for them as everyone else. "My employer pays part" just means that you get a lower wage due to the cost of your benefit package. Your employer passes the cost on to you.
 

denec

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Then your point is (as usual) meaningless since no one is forcing you to do anything.

Furthermore, you were wrong when you said that you get your prescriptions for free. You pay for them. You pay just as much for them as everyone else. "My employer pays part" just means that you get a lower wage due to the cost of your benefit package. Your employer passes the cost on to you.

your missing the entire point...if i were to pay for my meds out of pocket it doesn't come close to the premiums of my insurance

so yes it is free...otherwise iw ould be spending about $2000 a month

and no my company would not pay me more if they did not have to for my health care...trust me on that
 

Surf Monkey

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your missing the entire point...if i were to pay for my meds out of pocket it doesn't come close to the premiums of my insurance

so yes it is free...otherwise iw ould be spending about $2000 a month

I'm not missing the point at all. You are. No one is giving you free medicine. You're paying for it through your premiums and through employer contributions (which ultimately come out of your pocket.) Your assertion that you're getting it free is like saying that the police or the highways are free. Flatly wrong on the face of it.
 

denec

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I'm not missing the point at all. You are. No one is giving you free medicine. You're paying for it through your premiums and through employer contributions (which ultimately come out of your pocket.) Your assertion that you're getting it free is like saying that the police or the highways are free. Flatly wrong on the face of it.


i don't know what you want? everything handed to you on a silver platter? of course you have to pay premiums, you cannot have everything for free in this country how else you expect people to be in business?

and my premium out of my pocket is pocket change

my point is i am happy with my insurance..because if it was horrible insurance..i would be paying preimums plus spending $200 a month for my meds which i am not plus horrible co pays


when i had my accident several years ago and had to have surgery my surgery cost $100K, i only had to pay 1k out of pocket...you tell me...who came out ok?
 

Surf Monkey

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i don't know what you want? everything handed to you on a silver platter? of course you have to pay premiums, you cannot have everything for free in this country how else you expect people to be in business?

Who are you talking to? Did I say that I want stuff for free? Did I mention any silver platters? No. I've NEVER suggested that any health care should be free. You're the one who's suggesting that your prescriptions are free, not me.

and my premium out of my pocket is pocket change

my point is i am happy with my insurance..because if it was horrible insurance..i would be paying preimums plus spending $200 a month for my meds which i am not plus horrible co pays

when i had my accident several years ago and had to have surgery my surgery cost $100K, i only had to pay 1k out of pocket...you tell me...who came out ok?

So, who do you think paid for the surgery and etc.? Are you suggesting that your insurance company simply gave you the money out of the goodness of their hearts? Seriously, denec, you're ignoring the facts. You pay for your health care through various means. The fact that you don't write a personal check to the hospital doesn't mean that the procedure was "free."
 

denec

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Who are you talking to? Did I say that I want stuff for free? Did I mention any silver platters? No. I've NEVER suggested that any health care should be free. You're the one who's suggesting that your prescriptions are free, not me.



So, who do you think paid for the surgery and etc.? Are you suggesting that your insurance company simply gave you the money out of the goodness of their hearts? Seriously, denec, you're ignoring the facts. You pay for your health care through various means. The fact that you don't write a personal check to the hospital doesn't mean that the procedure was "free."

i never said it was free...but i said that is why I have insurance and happy with mine..and do not want Obama care...

my insurance is working for me and millions of others...just because 17% are uninsured becuase they are unemployed or illegals is not my fault
 

Surf Monkey

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i never said it was free...

Yes you did:

I pay nothing for my prescriptions...all of my prescriptions are covered 100% free...

As far as this goes:

but i said that is why I have insurance and happy with mine..and do not want Obama care...

my insurance is working for me and millions of others...just because 17% are uninsured becuase they are unemployed or illegals is not my fault


For one thing, we don't even know what the final plan looks like yet, so the assertion that you "don't want Obama care" is an empty statement.

For another, the problem isn't just the 10% without insurance, though that is a major issue that needs to be addressed since we're all paying for those uninsured people right now. The issue is also people who have insurance but still get killed financially when the company decides that they don't want to pay claims, raise rates, deny coverage and so forth. I'm glad you're pleased with your insurance, but many millions of Americans aren't.
 

denec

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i never said it was free...

Yes you did:


there is nothing wrong with that line...my coverage covers it 100%...some insurance only covers so much and you have to pay out of pocket for prescriptions



For one thing, we don't even know what the final plan looks like yet, so the assertion that you "don't want Obama care" is an empty statement.

For another, the problem isn't just the 10% without insurance, though that is a major issue that needs to be addressed since we're all paying for those uninsured people right now. The issue is also people who have insurance but still get killed financially when the company decides that they don't want to pay claims, raise rates, deny coverage and so forth. I'm glad you're pleased with your insurance, but many millions of Americans aren't.

and you think obama and the government who is rushing to get out a plan they have no idea what the plan even looks like will solve everything? they even admitted they rather rush to get out a plan that is broken and then fix it later...what the heck is that?



when has the government solved anything? they cannot even fix social security and medicare how do you expect them to fix something as global as this

that is my point all they know how to do is create more problems


I want the government out of my life and off my back!!!!!
 

LaceyUnderall

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I too am torn on this issue and think you raise some good points Vapordad.

Let's look at the flipside for those who have insurance through their employer.

What if you employ yourself?

A small family, say 3 or 4, can get insurance for as low as $280 per month. Now, remember, that this insurance has a deductible of $8000. You are granted one well visit per year up to $300 and if you are female, one mammogram if you are over 35 OR have a doctor's permission due to family history. You are also not included any prescriptions what so ever. All of those are out of pocket but do go towards your deductible. Now, this insurance also does not cover any pregnancy what so ever.

If you want pregnancy, add on $500 per month for ONE individual. Now, to further that, the female who is given pregnancy coverage is given a schedule as to when she can conceive in order to receive benefits. For example, if she is on the plan for one year, she will be given $2500 towards the fee of the pregnancy/delivery. And so on and so on up to 3 years where you can at most reap the benefits of $7500. But you can't conceive within that three year period.

This is STANDARD on many plans you find through many of the major health insurance providers.

Now, to put things into further perspective, let's look at the cost of pregnancy from start to finish: Doctor for the mother: Anywhere from $2100 to $3500 depending on doctor and type of delivery. Hospital: Anywhere from $6800 to $18000 depending on type of stay and the hospital. Anesthesiologists charge based on time and can range anywhere from $1000 to $10000. Pediatrician runs about $250 per visit. These figures are if you deliver one perfectly healthy child and you yourself are perfectly healthy.

Finally, please note that these are all Self Pay Rates. Insurance companies are billed at 2-3 times those amounts by the doctor, hospital, etc if you have insurance. This fact alone is mind-boggleing!

This is the reality that many face on a very simple thing: Bringing a baby into the world.

This is also the reality that for small businesses and families who are not working for others face. These are hardworking, middle-class, taxpayers and IMHO, they are the backbone of the US and don't fall into the category of "needy" and in some cases, wouldn't take it if offered.

As an Americanadian household, IMHO, there are two systems that if meshed together would be perfect. First you have the governmental system in Canada where everyone pays higher taxes, waits in line, can get the medical treatment they need on a daily basis, but when tragedy strikes and long term or serious conditions arise, issues occur.

In the US, we have a system where the consumer is held hostage by the health insurance company, paying insane rates, getting poor coverage and all the while praying their child doesn't fall and break an arm.

Mesh the two. Have a program that is set up by the government and EVERYONE pays for it every month. Whether your family can only afford to pay $20 per person a month or whether your family can afford to pay $100 per month per person... same health care for everyone, but everyone must pay.

I am a firm believer that everyone who participates in the payment of their health care, begins to have ownership and responsibility in how they treat and care for themselves and their families. Letting something go because you can't afford it needs to be a thing of the past, however, going to the doctor on a "free" system because you have sniffles is abusive and it will happen.
 
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