High drain batteries or not

[BrockJ]

Thnx for this info! I hadn't considered that overtightening an atty could distort it such that it could short out... nor that liquid alone pooling in the adapter could close (if not outright short) the circuit!

Since I generally don't use protected batts (i use IMR/LiMNs with LR attys) this type of info matters to me all the more.

Just one more reason that a mechanical switch is far superior to an electronic one.

I don't know if the juice is actually a direct short or just an increased resistance situation but I have noticed increased battery drain, poor performance and a warmer PV.

 

[New_World]

I'm still not entirely sure what happens if you short circuit an AW IMR batt.

it realease release tremendous current, but does that mean the battery will heat up and could cause a fire or what?

EDIT: here is what AW says:
When shorted. The IMR cells can dump up to 20C current which will melt the shrink wrap and damage your setup due to external resistance. The cell will be killed as well. NiMH/Nicad/Lead Acid cell all behave the same when shorted. No explosion / vent with fames with the safe IMR chemistry. A pcb will add up to 60mOhm resistance to the cell and hinder the performance considerably.

 

[forcedfuel50]

I'm still not entirely sure what happens if you short circuit an AW IMR batt.

it realease release tremendous current, but does that mean the battery will heat up and could cause a fire or what?

EDIT: here is what AW says:
When shorted. The IMR cells can dump up to 20C current which will melt the shrink wrap and damage your setup due to external resistance. The cell will be killed as well. NiMH/Nicad/Lead Acid cell all behave the same when shorted. No explosion / vent with fames with the safe IMR chemistry. A pcb will add up to 60mOhm resistance to the cell and hinder the performance considerably.

Yeah, i wouldn't want to short one, that is for sure

Personally, i love the new flat top protected AW 18650 battery 2600mah. It has a higher then normal discharge rate compared to regular AW 18650 so it has more then enough power for LR atomizers, plus it has an outstanding 2600mah. My mom is vaping her prototype Precise 18650 as we speak with that battery in it
AW 18650 Protected 2600 mAh Rechargeable Lithium Battery - New Version

 

[grimmer255]

so which is better high drain or the one above mentioned ... I understand the 18650 above is protected and has a nice 2600 mah but how does it compare to a high drain 18650?

 

[Switched]

I'm still not entirely sure what happens if you short circuit an AW IMR batt.

it realease release tremendous current, but does that mean the battery will heat up and could cause a fire or what?

EDIT: here is what AW says:
When shorted. The IMR cells can dump up to 20C current which will melt the shrink wrap and damage your setup due to external resistance. The cell will be killed as well. NiMH/Nicad/Lead Acid cell all behave the same when shorted. No explosion / vent with fames with the safe IMR chemistry. A pcb will add up to 60mOhm resistance to the cell and hinder the performance considerably.

IMHO folks need to read the entire data on a batt.

The operative word here is can, and yes the battery has that potential. What has been omited from the quote is the internal short circuit protection in addition to short circuit protection of the PCB.

Should a short occur, which causes the battery to heat up, the internal thermal link will melt at degree X and prevent a thermal runaway which in turn leads to overheating and venting as AWs do not explode.

It is only if both protection features fail that venting will occur during a "thermal runaway"

 

[Switched]

so which is better high drain or the one above mentioned ... I understand the 18650 above is protected and has a nice 2600 mah but how does it compare to a high drain 18650?

The one pictured is fine and will handle all our applications (reg and low resistance) with room to spare. Problems occur when we start to stack batteries. Although stacking batteries has been used for ions in the flashlight world, the current draw of the light bulb doesn't even come close to the extra exertion we vapers place on them. Read the current draw C or Amps required to push the load in 3 columns 3.7V, 6V and 7V:

• 1.5 Ohms = 2.5A, 4A and 4.7A
• 2.2 Ohms = 1.7A, 2.7A and 3.2A
• 3.5 Ohms = 1.1A, 1.7A and 2A

Folks are using batts with regards to heat generated or watts produced, going after the higher number. Hey higher number equates to more vapour right? Wrong! It does but at a great cost. Reduction in flavour and a greatly reduced battery and atty life.

• 1.5 Ohms = 9.1W
• 2.2 Ohms = 6W, 16W
• 3.5 Ohms = 3.9W, 10.3W and 14W
• 4.5 Ohms = 3W, 8W and 10.8W
• 5.2 Ohms= 2.6W, 6.8W, 9.3W

If the sweet spot is said to be between 6-12 Watts, then using the proper atty for the battery application will not only extend atty life, it will also extend the battery life by not stressing it.

I'm a 510 user. I use a 3.5 for 6V and a 5.2 for 7V. Most folks are now finding that the really sweet spot is around 4.5-5V, funny isn't it (5V data):

• 2.2 Ohms = 11.1W and 2.3A
• 3.5 Ohms = 7.1W and 1.4A
• 4.5 Ohms = 5.5W and 1.1A
• 5.2 Ohms = 4.7W and 0.9A

Most LI Ion batteries below 16340 have a maximum continuous discharge rate of 1.5C or 1.5A. This is where IMRs become useful because above that, the LI Ions meet our load demands. This is where battery longevity between recharges is more important.

• IMR 18650 1600mAh = 10C
• LI Ion 18650 2600mAh = 5.2C

LI Ion have more than enough capacity to handle our loads.

What stresses a battery is using it outside of its design characteristics, like using a 10440 for LR applications. It was never designed for that in mind. It has a continuous discharge capability of 0.5-1A (too lazy to find it again) and yet we use it for vaping, and that is why folks say the 10440 suck.

Addendum: Stacking batteries doesn't dble the carrying capacity of the battery. e.g turn a 1C batt into a 2C batt, only the voltage is dbled. That being said batteries in parallel can stand a greater load because they share the load, and their longevity between recharges nearly dbled and, you could run a LR atty on a 14500 (1C) batt, at the cost of battery length between recharges, but the parallel set can withstand the load. But that only produces 3.7V? <------ most folks will not use batts in this fashion. We want more power Ug.

16340 is the fence IMHO. It used to be 14500, but I have since learned for LR applications, to throw in the 16340 as well. So in summation if you are or intend to use a LR atty (read 1.5 Ohms) then go with IMRs for all application using a 16340 or lower and LI Ion for the bigger batts, and of course my vote goes to AW anything.

 

[grimmer255]

Thanks Switch that made a lot of since. AW is basically a great choice due to being the least effected by the LR attie or any attie for that matter. In other words an altogether better vaping session.

 

[Switched]

I have 1/2 a spread sheet made up depicting voltages vs current draw with a known resistance. The other 1/2 will represent voltage vs watts produced at known resistances. It is a lot of work, so I needed to take a break for a spell.

 

[forcedfuel50]

Good information Switched!

 

[metapuff]

thanks for the recommend on the aw batts
one more question
do you suggest to get more than one batt to switch out everyday (lr atty)
or is one ok to let it go till they die then recharge?

thanks

 

[mwa102464]

Thats great Info Switched, I enjoy reading your informative post a bunch on Power

 

[Switched]

thanks for the recommend on the aw batts
one more question
do you suggest to get more than one batt to switch out everyday (lr atty)
or is one ok to let it go till they die then recharge?

thanks

only if ya want to be without your PV while the battery is charging. You will/would be safe with 2, any more would indeed be wasteful.

 

[Switched]

Thats great Info Switched, I enjoy reading your informative post a bunch on Power

Thanks, the spread sheet is finished. I will post after converting it to a jpg that folks can refer to at a later date, from the comfort of their own computer

 

[New_World]

thanks for the recommend on the aw batts
one more question
do you suggest to get more than one batt to switch out everyday (lr atty)
or is one ok to let it go till they die then recharge?

thanks

its better for batt to recharge often.
these li-ion batts have no memory effect so you don't have to discharge a lot like some other batt chems.

charging-

at 4.1 volts, you get over 2000 cycles.
at 4.2 volts, you get roughly 500 cycles.
at 4.3 volts, you get under 100 cycles.
at 4.4 volts, you get less than 5 cycles.
　
　


Voltage/remaining capacity - A rough guide, not a set-in-stone rule.

4.2V = Full
4.1V = 90%
4.0V = 80%
3.9V = 60%
3.8V = 40%
3.7V = 20%
3.6V = Empty
(voltage is measured open circuit, the DMM leads on the poles with no load on the battery)

 

[Switched]

its better for batt to recharge often.
these li-ion batts have no memory effect so you don't have to discharge a lot.

charging-

at 4.1 volts, you get over 2000 cycles.
at 4.2 volts, you get roughly 500 cycles.
at 4.3 volts, you get under 100 cycles.
at 4.4 volts, you get less than 5 cycles.
　
　


Voltage/remaining capacity - A rough guide, not a set-in-stone rule.

4.2V = Full
4.1V = 90%
4.0V = 80%
3.9V = 60%
3.8V = 40%
3.7V = 20%
3.6V = Empty
(voltage is measured open circuit, the DMM leads on the poles with no load on the battery)

Do you mind providing us with the reference for which you are providing this data.

 

[New_World]

Do you mind providing us with the reference for which you are providing this data.

Its been saved on my computer for a few months so I can't remember the exact thread.

But it is from the Candle power forums.

 

[Switched]

its better for batt to recharge often.
these li-ion batts have no memory effect so you don't have to discharge a lot like some other batt chems.

charging-

at 4.1 volts, you get over 2000 cycles.
at 4.2 volts, you get roughly 500 cycles.
at 4.3 volts, you get under 100 cycles.
at 4.4 volts, you get less than 5 cycles.
　
　


Voltage/remaining capacity - A rough guide, not a set-in-stone rule.

4.2V = Full
4.1V = 90%
4.0V = 80%
3.9V = 60%
3.8V = 40%
3.7V = 20%
3.6V = Empty
(voltage is measured open circuit, the DMM leads on the poles with no load on the battery)

Its been saved on my computer for a few months so I can't remember the exact thread.

But it is from the Candle power forums.

OK, on second look I found out what they were saying. No offense intended, the data you are quoting has nothing to do with what was discussed.

Those figures represent the fall out of what happens when you "overcharge" a battery.

Similar results will occur if you stress a battery, it shortens it's life cycles.

What is magical (wrong word, but descriptive) if you have 500 cycles. these cycles are determined from a fully discharged battery (read safe, minimum cut out). For argument sake, it is not necessary to fully discharge an LI Ion batt because it doesn't take away from the total charge cycle, recharging an incompletely drained batt (read 50%) if recharged at this state (always) you would get 1000 cycles (theoretically), and as you stated - LI Ions do not have a memory. Therefore it is safe to recharge them at anytime, without affecting the overall available charge cycles.

IOW if ya have $500 to spend which last longer, spending it $10 or $50 at a time. It will last $500 worth, might be spread out over a longer period of time, but you will only get $500 worth.

 

[New_World]

I always charge my batts to 4.14-4.15.
so it seems as if I am getting more use out of my batteries according to this:
(taking into account that most people charge to 4.2 b/c that when the protection circuit kicks in and stops the charge.........while my charger is stopping at 4.14 with no trickle charge, which is a lot safer b/c if the protection c. fails my charger still won't trickle charge or charge higher than 4.15)

at 4.1 volts, you get over 2000 cycles.
at 4.2 volts, you get roughly 500 cycles.
at 4.3 volts, you get under 100 cycles.
at 4.4 volts, you get less than 5 cycles.

OK, on second look I found out what they were saying. No offense intended, the data you are quoting has nothing to do with what was discussed.

Those figures represent the fall out of what happens when you "overcharge" a battery.

Similar results will occur if you stress a battery, it shortens it's life cycles.

What is magical (wrong word, but descriptive) if you have 500 cycles. these cycles are determined from a fully discharged battery (read safe, minimum cut out). For argument sake, it is not necessary to fully discharge an LI Ion batt because it doesn't take away from the total charge cycle, recharging an incompletely drained batt (read 50%) if recharged at this state (always) you would get 1000 cycles (theoretically), and as you stated - LI Ions do not have a memory. Therefore it is safe to recharge them at anytime, without affecting the overall available charge cycles.

IOW if ya have $500 to spend which last longer, spending it $10 or $50 at a time. It will last $500 worth, might be spread out over a longer period of time, but you will only get $500 worth.

 

[New_World]

only if ya want to be without your PV while the battery is charging. You will/would be safe with 2, any more would indeed be wasteful.

yeah don't be wasteful like me.......with like 15 14500 batts. LOL

 

[metapuff]

How do you know what level your batts are charged at?
Some kind of battery meter? Can you give a link to a recommended device?
Thanks