Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[Kurt]

Just my opinion here, but I think it's possible to make too much of this issue.

Even if regulation were in place this type of error could still happen. There was a case where batched and tested Ecopure juice was released with a bad mix sometime last year which resulted in a recall. It is going to happen.

But even though I'm not a rightist politically, the market does sort this kind of thing out. And the larger makers of e-cigs are learning to be very careful... and our end of the market has grown more responsible over time.

So please do not beg for regulation or "bang the drum". It's not going to be a little more expensive- it's going to be a lot more expensive. Or not available at all.

We enjoy a lot of freedom in the vaping community. I think we ought consider very carefully whether we want to give that freedom up. From my standpoint, it's not worth it. And if you DIY- test your stuff. If you're a vendor- test your stuff.

But for me...I do not want to give anything up to the government that would curtail our rights.

These are my personal thoughts.

Totally agree, coz. Nicotine is unregulated, always has been. But bad business is bad business. The effect of regulating nicotine would be felt by FAR more than us vapors. The difference between us and researchers, big pharma, tobacco, is that we want a liquid that uses VG or PG as the vehicle. One can always buy very high grade nic that passes multiple assays from, say, Sigma, but the liquids are a product made post pure-nic-purity stages. I don't know of another population that uses them.

I know of several companies now that have stepped forward to me wanting to do regular nic level assays on their lots. The first to do this was TW, and it was their test results on their website that made me want to pony up a bit more $$ for their product. Turned out I couldn't do PG, and I wasn't too fond of their nic anyway...too many other tobacco compounds in it, as was openly disclosed...but I applauded this action. Up until now, this has been rare. In fact, I personally do not know of any others that did this. Doesn't mean there are no others, I just have not seen them. I think this is now going to change. This is definitely an industry where people vote with their wallets, and scream to the rafters if things are not right, with significant effect. Substantiated quality is something that will create winners here, plain and simple.

the hazardous nature of nic, however, could force some sort of crack down, but I doubt that is going to happen. This wild west has been going on for years now, and even this problem has not resulted in death. I am heartened that we deal with something so deadly poisonous and have had no deaths, and yet BP seems to be killing people all the time, and often the worst that can happen is a packaging color change.

 

[Brianbotkiller]

Brianbotkiller, I asked if the simple BB/acid test produces comparable results because the smaller artisan eliquid shops are unlikely to have the skill and equipment to do what Kurt has done.

"Titration curves are not difficult to obtain, but to do them accurately requires specialized glassware and electronics."

A smaller vendor buying maybe 500ml of 100mg/ml to work with is probably not set up to do this, while it would be reasonable to ask them to do the BB/acid check on incoming nic base. A result that's more than a handful of mg/ml off would be enough to at least get a question going upstream, to whoever they bought that base from, and if they only do it on the incoming bulk bottles of base, not repeat the test on every output bottle of eliquid, it shouldn't be overly burdensome in time/$.

Agreed, the process is not something that everyone can do. Obviously, those that supply nic should be doing their testing first and foremost, and then the vendor follow up afterwards to be sure.

The interesting thing to me here is thinking about the fact that we are being so in depth about these things. In reality, there are so many things we consume that we have almost no idea about where they come from. I guess it's just the progression of things.

 

[Hoosier]

...so many things we consume that we have almost no idea about where they come from....

I have found that most folks really do not want to know. Some things I used to enjoy that, now that I know, I cannot bring myself to consume them. (This coming from a guy who has made cookies using ground earthworms instead of flour and I don't have a problem with that. And for the curious, no, they are not good tasting, it was something I did for a personal research subject.)

 

[landscaper]

Kurt did you contact BE?

Dave

 

[RichieRich]

I have found that most folks really do not want to know. Some things I used to enjoy that, now that I know, I cannot bring myself to consume them. (This coming from a guy who has made cookies using ground earthworms instead of flour and I don't have a problem with that. And for the curious, no, they are not good tasting, it was something I did for a personal research subject.)

Um thanks for conducting the research on those cookies. Better you than me! Lol

 

[Brianbotkiller]

I have found that most folks really do not want to know. Some things I used to enjoy that, now that I know, I cannot bring myself to consume them. (This coming from a guy who has made cookies using ground earthworms instead of flour and I don't have a problem with that. And for the curious, no, they are not good tasting, it was something I did for a personal research subject.)

Agreed. We no longer live in an age where we know the source of everything we consume. That's not a great thing, but let's face it, it would be hard for us to know where everything came from and function as "modern" humans (IMHO). When you come down to it, huge portions of our daily lives, and the things we use in them, rely on trust in people whom we will never, ever meet.

 

[Kurt]

Kurt -- Your detailed test results are superb information.

Question -- Do you have enough remaining in the samples to do a check to see if the simple test with bromothymol blue and .12N sulfuric acid gets roughly the same results? The little test kit like at least one person sells (just some of the chemicals, graduated cylinder, pipette) is well within what anyone who is selling eliquid or into DIY should be able to handle. It would be worthwhile to know if such a simple test on incoming nic would get a result that is at least close to your far more detailed approach.

(It sounds like you have a fair number of samples, including at least one or two from other vendors. Not asking you to try the simple test on everything, but do a couple of checks to see if the results line up fairly closely.)

Thanks!

I could do a few along with the next round of meter-titrations I do. I expect them to be qualitatively similar. The kits has to be done exactly right, and there is still a margin of error of perhaps +/- 10%, and with VERY high nic even more. You are using an indicator to say when you are done with the titration, and hoping the indicator is one that changes color at the pH of the eq point. I am using nic itself to tell me. The main point is these kit/indicator tests were done by other people, and it had zero impact on the problem or how it was handled. If you use the kit or do an indicator titration carefully, you will get similar results, but it seems the validity of the results, be it the method itself, or the fact that non-chemists were doing them, was ignored. So big guns with detailed and educated skills were needed. I doubt BE even knows what an inflection point is, let alone what it means. But the more people test on their own, the better. I say we all get Darwinian on the vendors, and weed out the riff-raff.

 

[Brianbotkiller]

I say we all get Darwinian on the vendors, and weed out the riff-raff.

I think that it would do folks good to contact their favorite vendors and inquire about their process. That's something I liked about vaperite, the fact that he shows you his mixing room, and house extracts and tests his tobacco flavors and such. I believe Pink Spot does the same, as does Kickbass. I'm curious now, about other vendors with whom I do business, and I think we all should be.

 

[kinabaloo]

ps: regarding high nic concentration having a noticeable fish / feet smell - this probably will not be the case if th e-liquid is acidified, with say citric acid.

 

[salemgold]

I have one of those DIY test kits from ebay and I intend to start using it. It may not be all that accurate but I bet that I will have a pretty good idea if I buy 100 mg nic and get 272 mg by mistake

 

[lowwkeyy]

Doom and gloom it seems , how can we as a community set up testing standards ? How can the community do this before the gov. Mucks everything up for us all. I'm not attempting to throw rocks but damn it. money is cheap when it comes to protecting the lifes of customers and the lives of the vendors. we are all in this together so how can we get the vendor who failed the tools or training they need to prevent this issue from occurring again.

 

[markfm]

I wasn't thinking so much for an average end-point consumer to be doing even the BB/acid tests, but that it is perhaps reasonable for even the smaller shops to do that on their incoming nic, as well as for people who DIY.

At least the artisan shops are likely dealing with the same nic base range I do, in the 50 - 100mg/ml zone. It costs under $1 (more like 50 cents), plus a handful of minutes, to do the test on an incoming bottle of nic base. That really shouldn't add anything noticeable to the cost of the end product eliquid, and any vendor should have the skill to be able to carefully measure liquids. If the quick test shows to within the +/-10% zone, that should be a good enough indication, safe to work with. An outlier either way high or way low means do a second check, and if it's still out of limits push back on their source (and, hopefully, let the out-of-bounds test be known, unless the nic base originator has a really solid explanation as to why the simple test is wrong, basically letting others know to keep an eye on such-and-such a source).

(Personally, as an end-user and DIY person, if tests indicate to within 10%, that works for me.)

 

[Iffy]

To those that have offered to contribute to defray Kurt's expenses:

Please PM me for his PayPal addy.

I contacted Kurt to obtain his permission to post this and he reluctantly agreed.

Again, thanx, Kurt!

 

[Hoosier]

Just an aside note:

I have never seen so many lurkers on a thread before. This thing really has some "legs". I'm glad it does as the information is important and I know of nothing better than an educated consumer for any market.

 

[6pointprime]

Tonight on Click, Bang!

We will discuss the situation with Box Elder and their nicotine eliquid issues.

If you have comments, please email them to clickbangradio at gmail.

Also, I spoke with the lady who stayed at the Marriott and was fined for using her ecig. I'll tell her story with Steve K.

Tonight at 9PM EST

VapersPlace | VP Live

Call in number to participate when the show is live: 347-308-8329

 

[kinabaloo]

I saw a post here that suggested one need only test the ingredients. I think this case shows clearly that this would not be sufficient; one must test the final result.

It is quite feasible that the present situation was the result of incomplete mixing and only sampling the finished batch would show up the problem.

+++

To avoid the possibility of malfeance, the independent testing body along the lines Rolygate suggested would need to obtain samples in a way that was completely obscure to outsiders.

Hopefully such a body arises soon.

+++

@ Kurt - do the home test kits allow for neutralising / setting a baseline with regard to any acidic additives. Is this automatic or mentioned in the instructions, or would it require additional steps?

 

[carpedebass]

To avoid the possibility of malfeance, the independent testing body along the lines Rolygate suggested would need to obtain samples in a way that was completely obscure to outsiders.

Hopefully such a body arises soon.

I concur for the need of such a body, but the overwhelming question in my mind is regarding chain of custody. How would such a body go about achieving a legal chain of custody without the supplier knowing of such? I do understand that analyses can be performed sans chain, but to ensure such findings have the maximum effect, such a chain would really be necessary in my opinion.

 

[marlou]

I just finished reading through this thread and thought it might be of interest to relay how I came to find it. A vendor posted a link to this thread in the suppliers section and I saw it while catching up on their thread. This will no doubt be of interest and concern to the juice vendors who buy nic as it is to the individuals who buy it.

 

[Kurt]

Kurt did you contact BE?

Dave

No, not yet. Others have, however, I believe. I'm not exactly sure yet what I would say. I have no demands other than that they test their nic liquids. Don't want a refund. Don't trust them, to be honest. How they handled all this before my tests was really disturbing, and I tend to just avoid people/businesses like that, for better or worse. Might be that needs to change.

 

[Icoth]

Like everyone else, this really concerns me. I've used Box Elder and had good results. I've recommended their products based on this limited personal experience. Without regulation we can only rely on the professional integrity of vendors and the honest opinions of our fellow vapers to keep us safe. Needless to say, my trust in Box Elder has been shattered. Thank you Kurt for exposing this problem.