Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[Spazmelda]

Is there a possibility of having "hot spots" in say, a bottle of VG-base nic liquid, because the liquid wasn't homogenous? I heard that Chris at My Freedom Smokes preferred to limit the strength of his VG nic for that reason.

What if a vendor added nic to a bottle, filled it up with base, capped and shipped it. No stirring, no agitation. Would a high proportion of the nic end up on top?

/ speculation

I believe that would be possible. This is why people need to know what they are doing when they mix nicotine. I'm not sure if the nicotine would fall to the bottom or be at the top, but it's possible that there would be a gradient of nicotine concentration.

In pharmaceuticals, this is an issue (think of all the components in Nyquil as an example). The person/company mixing the liquid needs to have procedures in place to test the mixing of the components. Even with solid samples (pills) mixing is a crucial step that has to be monitored. I know that companies that make pills and liquids have SOPs (standard operating procedures) for testing these things. Like they will take samples from the top, middle, and bottom of a vat and test them to make sure they are all homogenous. The difficulty in mixing nicotine is not an excuse for sending out poorly mixed product.

 

[junquedujour]

Not all Americans are against regulations! LOL. I happen to feel that a bit of regulation is a good thing (not just for nicotine, but other consumer products and services as well). I don't trust companies and corporations which are looking after the bottom line to be completely ethical and self regulate, and I don't think consumers have the necessary expertise to perform analyses on every single product or service they purchase.

...

imho government regulation is often times just who provides the most grease in the palm of the politicians. good ol' consumerism will filter out most of the unsavory companies ... just like it is doing right now to BE.

with that said ... we all know it is coming and with that, prices will rise to accommodate the cost of the government's intrusion.

 

[tiburonfirst]

Hey Salem, I was told by a Chinese Nic Vendor that the best storage of Nic should be stored at 2-5C°

and that might be our problem. do our resellers - either for diy or readymade ejuice - test their nic once they receive it? or do they trust the labelling?

 

[chevelle]

Kurt, Thanks so much for your efforts! This is truly illuminating and disturbing.

Would you say, based on an admittedly limited sample size, correlate nic from BE that is overly high to be the ones with more of an amber shade as opposed to clear? ...Or would that be too ambiguous a characteristic to classify the nic we currently have without analysis. Just looking for a tell-tale or a quick sanity check to determine if further analysis may or may not be warranted. I do know that, in the past, members have mentioned that their nic liquid was more of an amber color than clear. Not just from BE either.

Even though I no longer use nicotine in my mixes, I do have a small amount left in the freezer...naturally it is BE nic! Ugh!

Thanks again!

 

[RichieRich]

Government regulation is inevitable, which will also mean higher COG. I for one don't mind spending a little more as long as there are proper safeguards in place to keep something like this from happening. It's kinda scary that just about anyone could get there hands on something that concentrated and unknowingly distribute it to the masses.

I just realized how scary this is. I don't know if my preferred juice vendors use BE. And if they do, do they test the nic levels before they begin mixing? We are so far only pointing a finger at Box Elder but, what if other suppliers out there have this same snafu? We need some type of certification in place. We have the UL and FCC certifications for electronics, why can't we have an ECF cert. for nicotine products?

 

[cozzicon]

Government regulation is inevitable, which will also mean higher COG. I for one don't mind spending a little more as long as there are proper safeguards in place to keep something like this from happening. It's kinda scary that just about anyone could get there hands on something that concentrated and unknowingly distribute it to the masses.

I just realized how scary this is. I don't know if my preferred juice vendors use BE. And if they do, do they test the nic levels before they begin mixing? We are so far only pointing a finger at Box Elder but, what if other suppliers out there have this same snafu? We need some type of certification in place. We have the UL and FCC certifications for electronics, why can't we have an ECF cert. for nicotine products?

Just my opinion here, but I think it's possible to make too much of this issue.

Even if regulation were in place this type of error could still happen. There was a case where batched and tested Ecopure juice was released with a bad mix sometime last year which resulted in a recall. It is going to happen.

But even though I'm not a rightist politically, the market does sort this kind of thing out. And the larger makers of e-cigs are learning to be very careful... and our end of the market has grown more responsible over time.

So please do not beg for regulation or "bang the drum". It's not going to be a little more expensive- it's going to be a lot more expensive. Or not available at all.

We enjoy a lot of freedom in the vaping community. I think we ought consider very carefully whether we want to give that freedom up. From my standpoint, it's not worth it. And if you DIY- test your stuff. If you're a vendor- test your stuff.

But for me...I do not want to give anything up to the government that would curtail our rights.

These are my personal thoughts.

 

[MASTER0FDAMPF]

That would require that every vendor send in every batch. Looking at some of the testing done (even in the OP), this seems to be inconsistent with batches from BE. This is likely to be far too costly for smaller mom and pop shops. There would also need to be an ECF rep that would have to be allowed to go in and inspect that SOP is controlled and in place and followed by enforcement. This same type of incident is what ISO certification for a lab is designed to help avoid. There is danger when handling poisons and I do not DIY mostly because there are no ISO labs that sell at a consumer level and I fully understand that when handling a poison that I do not want to just "take them at their word". Since this post went up both of my favorite vendors and many of the "sometimes" vendors that I use have posted on ECF or their site that they do NOT use BE and most have posted whose nic base they use. I find this to be a very responsibile position from them. Most of them DO test the nic batch when they get it although usually not to the niceness of the testing done by the OP.

For places like RTS (Which gets their nic from an ISO lab), where they are distributing large quantites of post mix product, it would not be so bad, but "myjuicevendor.com" would not likely be able to afford the testing. I have done a couple of tests on my liquid (as I mix and dilute from 24mg to 18) but I had the help of chemists and scientists who do this stuff all day and use big words and calculations that are not in my repitoire. My first batch was split between hand shaken and vibrational/rotational mechanical homogenizer and I was appalled at what I thought was a well mixed batch when tested against one from the machine. I now use a "3 shake" method that allows me to come fairly consistent with my blend. I mix in 250ml nalgene sterilized bottles (media bottles) and I follow the same procedure every time. I think alot of this comes down to QC. Clearly there is no controlled SOP being followed, allowing for a very high margin of error at BE.

My chineese liquid, always from the same supplier (MV), has always been within 2mg of the target. Not bad considering that I just mixed 1000ml of it and all were pretty much spot on.

Government regulation is inevitable, which will also mean higher COG. I for one don't mind spending a little more as long as there are proper safeguards in place to keep something like this from happening. It's kinda scary that just about anyone could get there hands on something that concentrated and unknowingly distribute it to the masses.

I just realized how scary this is. I don't know if my preferred juice vendors use BE. And if they do, do they test the nic levels before they begin mixing? We are so far only pointing a finger at Box Elder but, what if other suppliers out there have this same snafu? We need some type of certification in place. We have the UL and FCC certifications for electronics, why can't we have an ECF cert. for nicotine products?

Just as a minor point of proof that I am not speaking "OOMA", I work at a medical research facility that has ISO and nuclear labs (very weak neuclear solutions used) and even though I am in IT, I still have to take safe handling and emergency protocol training. And for the others who will say "no one mixes 1000ml of juice for their own use at a time!", please see below:

 

[hairball]

Thank you for posting this information. I used to DIY but always bought from Chris at myfreedomsmokes.com. When gourmetvapor first opened, I indulged on 500mls of their nic liquid but never used it...100mg. I put in the freezer in smaller amber euro dropper glass bottles and marked the bottles. When next summer rolls around, I have a good use for the liquid...bug killer for my garden.

 

[kinabaloo]

If an e-liquid has a noticeable unpleasant fish / feet smell that is a sign that it is high nic. Below 40mg that is not very noticeable but by 80mg+ it is distinct. This is the smell common to all amines.

This is hardly an ideal test, but might be helpful. (Carefully) smell the liquid itself not the vapor. Other flavorings / aromas in the liquid might mask the smell.

 

[RippleInStillWater]

I have said thanks elsewhere, Kurt, and I say it here, too -- way to look out for the community!!!

 

[Ivisi]

Government regulation is inevitable, which will also mean higher COG. I for one don't mind spending a little more as long as there are proper safeguards in place to keep something like this from happening. It's kinda scary that just about anyone could get there hands on something that concentrated and unknowingly distribute it to the masses.

I just realized how scary this is. I don't know if my preferred juice vendors use BE. And if they do, do they test the nic levels before they begin mixing? We are so far only pointing a finger at Box Elder but, what if other suppliers out there have this same snafu? We need some type of certification in place. We have the UL and FCC certifications for electronics, why can't we have an ECF cert. for nicotine products?

Because ECF isn't an agency whose purpose is to regulate and police the e-cig industry?

There is a need for a central industry body whose purpose is to suggest regulation, support testing, and such. Respected vendors have been asked in the past to form such a self-regulating body, and it hasn't happened yet. Hopefully, information gleaned from this will spur them along to realize that an agency/organization/committee would go a long way to show self-regulation works for our industry, and would also go a long way to not only protect the consumer, but would also protect the vendors.

 

[Xaria]

Thank you for Kurt for keeping this community posted on something that has been in the back of people's minds since the OP had started the other thread.

 

[RichieRich]

Even if regulation were in place this type of error could still happen. There was a case where batched and tested Ecopure juice was released with a bad mix sometime last year which resulted in a recall. It is going to happen.

True, accidents will happen, but what is too keep manufacturers on their toes to make sure accidents do not happen on a regular basis? Box Elder stated there is no way a mistake like this is possible. Did they ever look into the batches they were selling and double check to make sure levels were correct? And, are you going to take their word?

Maybe I jumped the gun and threw govt regulation out too quickly. Do I trust the govt? Not as much as I'd like to admit. I just think we need some independent entity to keep mfrs on their toes. I know there will be a lot of Mom & Pop shops that won't be able to stay in business if something like this happens, but isn't your health and well being just as important, if not more?

 

[cozzicon]

True, accidents will happen, but what is too keep manufacturers on their toes to make sure accidents do not happen on a regular basis? Box Elder stated there is no way a mistake like this is possible. Did they ever look into the batches they were selling and double check to make sure levels were correct? And, are you going to take their word?

Maybe I jumped the gun and threw govt regulation out too quickly. Do I trust the govt? Not as much as I'd like to admit. I just think we need some independent entity to keep mfrs on their toes. I know there will be a lot of Mom & Pop shops that won't be able to stay in business if something like this happens, but isn't your health and well being just as important, if not more?

You Sir, are that independent entity.

Be Vigilant.

 

[Kurt]

Kurt, I don't see one in your post that says it was 121mg. It says one was 120mg - is that the one your are talking about? Please and thank you.

It was 120.6 mg, so the original number should be 121 if rounding to 3 significant figures. I edited the OP of this thread. It now correctly reads 121 mg.

 

[RichieRich]

Because ECF isn't an agency whose purpose is to regulate and police the e-cig industry?

There is a need for a central industry body whose purpose is to suggest regulation, support testing, and such. Respected vendors have been asked in the past to form such a self-regulating body, and it hasn't happened yet. Hopefully, information gleaned from this will spur them along to realize that an agency/organization/committee would go a long way to show self-regulation works for our industry, and would also go a long way to not only protect the consumer, but would also protect the vendors.

I didn't mean to put the burden on ECF. Just was using the anagram as an example (UL, FCC, ECF...). Police these days sounds so dirty and downright evil. How about protect and serve? I think that is what we need.

 

[chevelle]

Thinking about how this issue can be minimized in the future...There is ample evidence to prove that Government regulation is no guarantee of quality or safety of anything. A quick search using the Great Gazoogle will verify this. Regulation is not all bad of course but there are many factors that can "influence" inspection or lack thereof. Also, "Certifications by blah, blah, blah" , displayed online, are nearly meaningless without verifying their validity yourself. The miracle of Photoshop can make anybody's certs or documents your very own to display on your Website. Its unlikely anybody is gonna check with the certifying agency for validity anyway, Right? Advice here is don't take their word for it. Doesn't matter if they're really nice guys - Take the time to verify any expressed or implied certifications yourself.

Far more effective is the "Angry Mob With Torches and Pitchforks" descending on negligent or careless merchants. We have something like the online equivalent to that right here at ECF. I realize that it is not ECF's purpose to police the industry but, in reality, the mechanism is already in place with ECF's membership doing vendor reviews. In this case, having independent professionals like Kurt and others ready and willing to randomly analyze ANYBODY'S nic liquid at ANY time and then PUBLISH their results here. This is a powerful incentive for any vendor to maintain their quality standards. I know Kurt has put vendors on notice that analysis will be carried out at any time on a random basis. It would be great to have other Chemists do the same. In addition, making reliable nicotine test kits available for the rest of us, at an affordable price, would be very helpful all by itself... Group buy anyone?

 

[mgordon1100]

You can always go and trust the big Pharmaceutical companies, or RJReynolds and PhilipMorris. They're fully certified, and even regulated ... and so what?

Accidents happen, with or without certificates. Some people are more careful than others, you don't even have to invoke greed.

Nothing all THAT horrible happened. Relax. Have a vape.

You can always go and trust the big Pharmaceutical companies, or RJReynolds and PhilipMorris. They're fully certified, and even regulated ... and so what?

Accidents happen, with or without certificates. Some people are more careful than others, you don't even have to invoke greed.

Nothing all THAT horrible happened. Relax. Have a vape.

I'm gonna go get the papers, get the papers.

 

[RichieRich]

You Sir, are that independent entity.

Be Vigilant.

Lol. My non-scientific observation is not going to to save John Q. Public from inhaling vapor with higher nic levels than he thought. I am not a DIYer. I rely on my vendors to mix my liquids and hopefully they are reliable enough to make sure the nicotine levels they are selling are consistant with the label.

I for one do not want to test every single bottle of juice I receive. I am paying for e-liquid with Xmg's nicotine. My vendor should ensure I do not get Ymg's of nicotine. Who is going to ensure he/she is going to do that?

 

[markfm]

Kurt -- Your detailed test results are superb information.

Question -- Do you have enough remaining in the samples to do a check to see if the simple test with bromothymol blue and .12N sulfuric acid gets roughly the same results? The little test kit like at least one person sells (just some of the chemicals, graduated cylinder, pipette) is well within what anyone who is selling eliquid or into DIY should be able to handle. It would be worthwhile to know if such a simple test on incoming nic would get a result that is at least close to your far more detailed approach.

(It sounds like you have a fair number of samples, including at least one or two from other vendors. Not asking you to try the simple test on everything, but do a couple of checks to see if the results line up fairly closely.)

Thanks!