Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[markfm]

Question came up on what a CAS # is. They are unique numbers assigned by the Chemical Abstracts Service to every chemical. Think of it as a "social security number" for the molecule which stays the same whatever external name or formula writing style us used.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAS_registry_number

 

[Switched]

The 121 mg was PG, lot 257, and that person got sick.

Bump on this test procedure you can do:
eLiquid DIY Nicotine Test Kit

I think someone posted this, but the pages are flying by now.

@Salem: Sophie contacted me. Making arrangements.

@BeadyKate: PM me if you want it tested. If you want to send it back to BE, that's your choice too, of course.

Thanks Kurt! I have blogged it for prosperity

 

[Switched]

My bottle doesn't have a lot number on it that I can see. It's certainly not in the place where grazia's is. Hmm.

Goes to prove the lack of QA and QC from BE. Huge discussion wrt this VTTalk – Box Elder

 

[Briachas]

I'm not bashful...I posted a few questions.

Great job hairball, I just read your posts.

 

[Switched]

He did?? I don't think I got it, or else its gotten buried in my emailer. Oh, wow, no wonder he was so disoriented and panicked. He really screwed up on that one...even put it in writing and sent it to all his customers? Poor guy, I would hate to be in his head right now. Truly, he needs to find other work. This CEO thing does not suit him.

I guess the good news is he is going to have a lot more time for hunting trips now!!

Kurt,

I have always been a strong supporter of your posts, assisting the community and the ongoing work you are presently involved in. IMMHO please do not be so smug and lower yourself to their level

 

[Kurt]

Why would he inhale it 30 times? This makes no sense.
This is a case of a person (or a couple of people trying to burn the candles at both ends).
I bought BE nic in july. Lots 256(pg) 257(vg) both 36mg. I use it about 50% of the time. I would say I am 80% happy with it... Has a taste I cant eliminate but can live with. The last batch I received in sept is 257 but the bottle is now clear instead of blue and the nic appears bright amber. I poured some of the older nic into a clear container and the color is identical.
I have also bought juice from gourmet vapor. The last order was truly awful, and i'm done with that vendor.
The thing in common were really poor shipping times.
I don't think this was a malicious act. A dozen people on this board are losing their minds over not such a huge deal.
I'm pretty sure vaping 27 % nicotine wouldn't just make you think...MMM ...This sure is a strong batch i whipped up!
Kurt said it made him run for his respirator.
Never the less it is serious.. The vendor is aware and hopefully alot of people get educated on the dangers that can be found and corrected with diy.
This is awake up call.

(off ma box now)
Don

Fume hood, not respirator. Don't have one of those, but I'll consider it if a lot more of that stuff comes in.

 

[Kurt]

@Fernand: You are right on some of this. A pH meter that can be hooked up to a laptop will run $500-$1000. Probes need to be kept wet in pH 7 buffer, and recalibrated often with low and high pH buffer. Affordable for a vendor, but they are somewhat high maintenance. This is not a volt meter.

Yes, my titration only says there is so much of a base with a particular pKb (nic = 5.9). Another base with that same pKb will titrate almost the same, but it would have to be dibasic, as nic is, to give the same pH at equivalence point, so another nic ID. The only thing I could think of other than nic would be some nic analog, or one with similar pyridine and tertiary amine systems. Not likely to be affordable for a nic vendor, and I am sure BE would not even know what I am saying here. So I am 99.99% sure it is nic.

Also 99.99% sure it is extracted levo nic. We are lucky: the nic we want is the cheapest nic available in pure form. Dextro or a racemic mixture of the two would be synthetic and at least 10x the price. No way that 0.5L of 272 mg is synthetic, unless someone wanted to lose many 1000s of $. But to be chemically definitive, I would have to measure optical rotation and do GC-MS. And given the facts I describe here, its not worth it. Its levo nic, just way too much of it.

 

[Kurt]

@PONKAW, it's delicate. I agree, that people are going a bit hysterical here. But the INCHEM site says the mean lethal dose in humans is 40-60mg. I assume for someone with zero tolerance. But even for us non-virgins, don't you think it's a little close for comfort? If that 272mg/ml stuff is all levo-nic, 60 mg is but a fraction of a milliliter.

I bought BE Nic 100mg/ml in VG Lot 255. It's almost a year old and it still seems good and not especially high or low.

That is absorbed all at once. Nic metabolizes pretty fast. OTOH, a few drops of that 272 mg on the forearm or other exposed skin and you don't know about it, and you will be getting very sick. Lethal for that stuff would be about 3 drops swallowed. And nic death is not pretty. very messy. The low-level poisoning that some have gotten from the other tested batches was unpleasant enough: vomiting, loose bowels, sweats, etc.

 

[Kurt]

Yeah, people were pretty hard on some of the posters, weren't they. And that sweet little smallmam - I think they scared her away - and here she was just trying to identify with OP's findings. I hope she comes back to us - that would brighten my day.

She is in contact with me. She is safe, as far as I know.

 

[Kurt]

Question came up on what a CAS # is. They are unique numbers assigned by the Chemical Abstracts Service to every chemical. Think of it as a "social security number" for the molecule which stays the same whatever external name or formula writing style us used.

CAS registry number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know what a CAS number is in chemistry. Just never seen it as a lot ID, if that is what it is. It wasn't there before, and now there is no lot number given on the label. To a chemist it says "Yep, it sure is nicotine, just have no idea which batch it is...sure is nicotine though!"

 

[Kurt]

@ switched: wise advice, my friend! Point taken.

 

[Spazmelda]

Kurt- DH and I were discussing this last night and we got to wondering if a UV-vis spectrophotometer could be used to determine nicotine concentration.

I used to use these to determine DNA concentration in various labs I've worked in, and since the method of detection for nicotine with HPLC would use a uv detector, we were wondering if you could simply do it with a UV-vis.

Buying a UV spec would be a pretty big investment for a small company, but it's equipment that many labs have on hand and I'd imagine a UV spec test would run a lot cheaper than GCMS or some other method.

 

[curiousJan]

Simply speak with your wallet...

I always do, thank you!

Jan

 

[salemgold]

Kurt had said that a pH meter with 3 digits past the decimal was needed to estimate nic concentration. I'm finding it hard to find any affordable meters with that resolution that are not like 15 years old, and with all the probe maintenance issues. Here's one lab's instructions on using and maintaining their VWR pH meter:

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/rhic/documents/HIC-4-0012Approved.pdf

The point is if all you want to test is an occasional nic bottle, keeping a pH meter on wet standby is no small thing.

And in addition, don't the pH based assays (including the titration method) rely on the assumption that the only base in the liquid is nicotine? And what about dextro-Nicotine? Couldn't you titrate 272 mg/ml nicotine but that was all dextro isomer, and hence equivalent to about 135 mg/ml active levo-nicotine?

The trick would be to develop a way to take a quick read of actual nicotine concentration +/- 10-20 % say with inexpensive and easy to maintain gear.

p.s. Why did Rolygate lock that thread Aut0tek was posting on?

It has also been said that the ebay test kit will get you very close but not exact. The person that sent him the 272 mg nic came up with 264 mg using that same test kit so it is very close.

 

[Switched]

It has also been said that the ebay test kit will get you very close but not exact. The person that sent him the 272 mg nic came up with 264 mg using that same test kit so it is very close.

I have heard from a reputable source that they are accurate to within 5% - so with 100mg that equates to 95-105mg close enough really for verification purposes.

 

[Kurt]

To everyone I have arranged doing tests for:

I have no idea how many tests I have committed to at this point. I've pretty much just been responding with shipping details as fast as requests came in. So I do not know how long it will take for results to be obtained. I will have time next week to do many of them, but if yours does not come up right away do not worry, it will get done.

I think it would be best if any additional tests, for now, be limited to those that have good reason to think theirs is too strong. If the nic is vaping ok, and you are not have ill effects, but simply want to be sure, please wait until I have addressed those whose health might be in danger.

To vendors who want tests on their products, please allow me to complete these more emergent cases. After that, we can discuss this further. I do want to give a big thank you to all the vendors who clearly want to include tests like this in their operation. It is needed, and I believe will be necessary to continue with a reliable business. If you want to purchase equipment to do these yourself, I would be happy to help train you. pH meters are easy, but high maintenance and chemistry knowledge is required. The PASCO equipment I am using connects with any PC, and is a very good system for this application.

I am heading into a very busy couple of days with my teaching, and may not get to posts or PMs much, but I plan to return here this weekend.

 

[rolygate]

p.s. Why did Rolygate lock that thread Aut0tek was posting on?

Link please?

 

[Kurt]

Kurt- DH and I were discussing this last night and we got to wondering if a UV-vis spectrophotometer could be used to determine nicotine concentration.

I used to use these to determine DNA concentration in various labs I've worked in, and since the method of detection for nicotine with HPLC would use a uv detector, we were wondering if you could simply do it with a UV-vis.

Buying a UV spec would be a pretty big investment for a small company, but it's equipment that many labs have on hand and I'd imagine a UV spec test would run a lot cheaper than GCMS or some other method.

it would need to be able to do 260 nm. Some will, some will not.

 

[Dimitris]

I want to thank Kurt for coming on the show last night, hopefully we were able to touch on a few things that were left out of the interview and how people can protect themselves now and the future. This is only the start but i think that we can only get better from this point forward.

Here is the link to the replay just in case you missed:

VP Live Vapeteam Episode #2: New Mods and a Great Giveaway | The VapersPlace Vape Team on blip.tv

 

[hairball]

Link please?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/224197-boxelder-nic-feels-wayyyy-too-strong.html