Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[pinellaspete]

Well...We are worried about quality control issues aren't we?
If you can't find a physical address for the CEO's businesses, perhaps he is sub-contracting out the entire organization?

What are have been some of the biggest complaints about Box Elder?

Can't get anyone in customer service to respond.
REALLY slow shipping.
All the outgoing e-mails appear to be composed by the CEO himself.

It keeps sounding more and more like a one man operation to me.

Pete

 

[retird]

Exactly. It's the same thing as in the Patent Office: random and capricious. And given that it's the same slapstick crew that is doing regulation-related work when they're not doing prohibition-related work, the people who idolize regulation have no idea who and what they're inviting into the chicken coop.

Somehow our regulated and ISO certified Big Pharma and Big tobacco manage to kill more people than BE and all the 10 bottle a week juice vendors with their proverbial snot-nosed kids and pizza crust laden mixing tables.

The people who get a kick out of chewing on moral indignation over human error must wake up each morning amazed that the sun is up again.

From what I gather, regulation is not what I would ask for......Quality control is the term I choose to use.....

 

[tiburonfirst]

Well...We are worried about quality control issues aren't we?
If you can't find a physical address for the CEO's businesses, perhaps he is sub-contracting out the entire organization?

What are have been some of the biggest complaints about Box Elder?

Can't get anyone in customer service to respond.
REALLY slow shipping.
All the outgoing e-mails appear to be composed by the CEO himself.

It keeps sounding more and more like a one man operation to me.

Pete

pete, even a one-man operation can function just fine as long as that person does what he is supposed to do.

 

[curiousJan]

The lack of any production lot information makes it a bit of a shrug, wonder how they match paperwork. Does "Lot 256" represent one big container that comes into the distribution center for final downmixing, or does "Lot 256" come in as multiple separate containers, XX gallons each? To me, it would be nice if each container that comes in is sampled, would give a check to see if the mixing that occurred previously had indeed created a more or less homogenous product. (and if it comes in as one really big container, multiple samples would be good).

They should take a set number of samples per every x measure of liquid, no matter what quantity comes in. That would alleviate the potential of missing an improperly mixed batch no matter how the liquid is packaged for shipment. There are basic quality practices here that I would think would be required to handle nicotine in concentrated form.

There really is no regulation in place for the purchase and delivery of nicotine in highly concentrated form? Serious question.

Jan

 

[mauzey]

imo there is no point in looking for recommendations. kurt cannot predict what will happen at a nic vendor's place tomorrow or next week.
BE, i'm sure, sent out hundreds or thousands of orders before this happened and might be the safest place to order from atm due to this turmoil. that is if you didn't get turned off by the way they handled this.

Box Elder might well be the safest place right now, but they have lost my trust. Done. I am not looking for recommendations.That was not my point.

Thanks.

 

[tiburonfirst]

They should take a set number of samples per every x measure of liquid, no matter what quantity comes in. That would alleviate the potential of missing an improperly mixed batch no matter how the liquid is packaged for shipment. There are basic quality practices here that I would think would be required to handle nicotine in concentrated form.

There really is no regulation in place for the purchase and delivery of nicotine in highly concentrated form? Serious question.Jan

no regulations - we as consumers have allowed for this business to be built on trust, and i'm referring to the e-juice business in general.
this incidence was the first, to my knowledge, that could have had, or still can have, serious consequences. but there were prior reports of people reacting badly to juice. some were blamed on allergies, others never explained ...

 

[pinellaspete]

I feel that there should always be a place for the mom and pop vaping suppliers. This industry should be compared to pizzerias, bakeries, small family restaurants, breweries and wineries. There is a place for individualization. It is more about taste and customer service other than just selling the old coffin nails.

E-juice suppliers are artisans just as much as a brewer or baker. A cook, brewer or baker could produce poisonous food just as easily as a e-juice supplier. The local regulations and inspections keep most of this from happening. They still stay in business.

Only a very few industries in the US have been regulated to the point that a mom and pop couldn't survive. Those being Big Tobacco, Big Pharma and hard liquor. The cost of entry is just too large into these markets because of the costs associated with conforming to the regulations and licenses required.

Your local pizza shop, bakery and restaurant are regulated and inspected and they survive alongside McDonald's.

Look at all the local brew pubs springing up across the nation after regulations and licensing were relaxed. They are regulated and inspected and are actually taking business away from the nationwide brewers.

Its about taste and customer service.

To have zero regulations gets us issues with quality control and customer service like we are experiencing now.

Pete

 

[Skeeter T]

This could be a golden opportunity for the vaping community. Regulation of the industry is inevitable and I believe regulation will give us a 99.9% confidence level in a products we buy. The last thing the industry needs is government regulation, which will give the industry laws, rules, fees, penalties and headaches beyond normal reason. That is the nature of government. This is the time to form a responsible, self-regulating association. The association can draft a code of ethics, a quality control system, written procedures, training, standards, product tolerances, vendor surveillance and anything it requires to maintain service, product quality and customer confidence in the industry.

Envision a group of responsible vendors meeting with this intention. Forming an association, selecting a board of directors, incorporating, setting fees for participating vendors and publicly publishing a list of members for us consumers. Any vendor that isn't on the list, doesn't get our money.

Let's face it, no matter what industry or business you can think of, there are always those that are unscrupulous. They will tell us anything to gain our confidence in their quest for our money. Kurt indicated he's getting a rush of vendors that want testing on their product. Are these the vendors that have little or no quality control at their facility and are suspicious of the nic content of their liquid?

If I had a company and suspected product I sold could harm or cause death, then I would immediately start an investigation into the nature of the suspect product, assuming accurate records were kept. Without verification of quality, then I would notify all my customers that my product may be suspect and pay them to have it tested or send it back for testing. "Employee error" is not the root cause of a discrepancy. What caused the employee to err? Was it inadequate training, little or no supervision, sloppy procedures, distractions, tiredness, inadequate tools or equipment to do the job, etc.? Without documented QC procedures, there is no evidence a discrepancy occurred, which is just cause to shut down the operation.

Just some thoughts ...

 

[curiousJan]

no regulations - we as consumers have allowed for this business to be built on trust, and i'm referring to the e-juice business in general.
this incidence was the first, to my knowledge, that could have had, or still can have, serious consequences. but there were prior reports of people reacting badly to juice. some were blamed on allergies, others never explained ...

I realize that 100mg/mL nicotine PG/VG and lower isn't regulated and I'm not alluding that it should be. But the higher concentrations wouldn't be "regulated" or traced in some manner just as pesticides and other chemicals of the same dangerous potential are? That was my question. Generally OSHA would be involved in inspections for handling of chemicals of that nature, right? Unless the speculation that this is a 1-man business model is accurate ... in which case all bets are off with respect to proper quality practice and traceability.

I, personally, have a sensitivity to VG, tightens my throat and makes me cough. That's a completely different issue than a consumer receiving product that is not at all as-advertised.

Jan

 

[tmcase]

Latest email from Box Elder:

Due to recent events, we want to offer an Unlimited Satisfaction Guarantee for all of our products from Box Elder Chemical Supply. If any of our customers are dissatisfied with any of our products regardless of when they were purchased we will offer a full refund, including the cost of return shipping to us.
We realize the importance and nature of the products that we sell and we want to assure the community that we are continually striving for transparency and accuracy in our own business operations as well as this industry as a whole.
We do ask that before you ship a product back to us that you contact us at customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com or call 888-962-5877.

Please have the date of purchase or the order ID number and we will be more than willing to issue a Return Merchandise Authorization Number.
We also ask that if you return a product to us that you do so via the US Postal Service and that you send the product via Flat Rate Priority Mail to my personal address:
Brad Bacher
1170 Sycamore Dr.
Brigham City, Utah
84302
Any refunds will be issued within 24 hours of the date of an arrival of product back to our facility. We apologize for any mistakes that could have been made and we can only extend our promise to improve the quality of our products and performance of our duties to our community of friends and customers.

Sincerely,
Brad Bacher
www.boxelderchemicalsupply.com

 

[swedishfish]

pete, even a one-man operation can function just fine as long as that person does what he is supposed to do.

Exactly. I've worked in labs for years and believe me, just because something was done in a lab by someone with gloves and a hairnet only means that the lab worker is protected. Means nothing about the quality or quality control.

 

[Katya]

Just received this email from BE:

Thanks for posting this, Tm.

Interesting. Almost a recall? But not quite?

Wouldn't a recall start with the words: "Anyone who has purchased such and such from us is asked to return it..."?

I'm not sure.

 

[curiousJan]

Thanks for posting this, Tm.

Interesting. Almost a recall.

But not quite.... I'm not sure.

Sitting here thinking about this ... if there aren't good records providing traceability it is entirely possible that BE cannot actually request recall by lot number.

Jan

 

[Katya]

Sitting here thinking about this ... if there aren't good records providing traceability it is entirely possible that BE cannot actually request recall by lot number.

Jan

Exactly. Plus the term "not satisfied" is sort of vague.

Any lawyers around?

However, I think that this is a good first step.

 

[kinabaloo]

They are aware of the affected lot numbers and should be doing a recall. This is a small step in the right direction, but far short of what is needed.

This isn't a case of not being satisfied - many companies offer this kind of return policy as standard anyway; it is not a case of dud bateries, it is a matter of dangerous goods having been shipped that need to be traced, and fast.

Apart from the clear moral obligation, surely it is in their interests too. Recalls happen; to do so when appropriate makes you look responsible; not doing it to save some cash will not save reputation. But most impotantly though their interest in a recall would be to avert the real chance of being sued should an accident occur. There are bottles out there at ~10x normal concentration, from which just a fraction of 1 ml could kill. A newbie could get a cart leak and unknowingly or by reaction swallow it. At 24mg you'd almost certainly survive; at 240mg you may well not.

Plus they are hanging the whole industry and user-base - and potential users - by a thread.

It is a disgrace.

 

[Katya]

to those that have offered to contribute to defray Kurt's expenses: please pm me for his paypal addy.

I contacted Kurt to obtain his permission to post this and he reluctantly agreed.

Best to ya, kurt!

Just a friendly reminder.

Carry on!

 

[Katya]

They are aware of the affected lot numbers and should be doing a recall. This is a small step in the right direction, but far short of what is needed.

This isn't a case of not being satisfied - many companies offer this as standard - it is a matter of dangerous goods having been shipped that need to be traced, and fast.

Apart from the clear moral obligation, surely it is in their interests too, to avert the real chance of being sued should an accident occur.

Yeah, but there is a possibilty, isn't there, of other batches also being affected. Their labeling was somewhat imprecise, if you recall, so that complicates everything. How does one recall bottles that were not labeled properly (or not labeled at all)?

 

[LordDavon]

Is there a wiki somewhere listing all of the vendors tested, the results, and how the nic was obtained (donated, secret order, etc)? Having this type of information at our fingertips will not only allow us to better judge a vendor, but also make sure that vendors stick to standard testing, due to the exposure. I think just as important as getting the results, is putting them in front of everyone and making them easy to maintain.

If this isn't already available, we could always use WikiSpaces, WikiDot, Wiki-site or something, to get it started. Just let me know if you need any help.

Just an FYI. The offer is still out there.

 

[Prettycat191]

That email sure doesn't make me feel any better, and in my opinion it should have been sent sooner. This is a good time to be proactive and show you give a damn, but he seems to be waiting for us to push him to do the right thing. "If your'e not satisfied", maybe it should have said if you're not dead; because I'm pretty sure no one is really satisfied at the moment.

Do a recall, and shut down shipping new product until you're 100% POSITIVE that your product is up to par and coming out correctly!

Once again I don't notice anywhere that he actually says HOW they're changing either.

Damn, the email's gone now, so you'll just have to take my word for it

 

[tmcase]

Sorry about that Prettycat but I think everybody who has done business with BE will get that email.