Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[ambientech]

From my local Brick and mortar store None of these would test they immediately turned yellow
Cowboy killer
Banana Taffy
Vanilla menthol
RY4
Apple pie
Strawberry lemonade
Pineapple Crush
Cinnamon

These worked
From AVE
rafalicious
Bobas

All are 24mg and none seem to be too strong or too weak I was just curious to see the outcome but kept testing since none were working.

 

[rkayw]

Just fyi.

It probably doesn't mean anything but...

I went to the BE website. Their nic shows Out of Stock (in red). But it allowed me to add it to my cart.
Maybe someone that has purchased from them knows how their checkout system works and can tell us that it won't let anyone checkout if items are not in stock.
I did not complete the checkout process.

 

[Circumspice]

This just in:


From: Brad Bacher <customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com>
Date: 20 November 2011 04:11:45 GMT
To: XXX@XXX.XXX
Subject: Subject: Box Elder Product Recall

Hello Everyone,

Due to recent indications by the public of high Box Elder nicotine strengths, we are issuing a product recall for any bottle of unflavored e-liquid that have been purchased between May and August 2011. We are investigating this problem to the fullest extent possible and we regret to inform you that we will not be selling nicotine products on Box Elder Chemical Supply until we can fully verify the nature and source of this problem. We are very sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you however, we are convinced that for our customers, company and industry, that a recall is the safest course of action due to the nature of this product.

We humbly request that if you have purchased a bottle of unflavored e-liquid from us between May and August 2011, that you place the bottle in a zip-lock plastic bag and mail it back to us.

We do ask that before you ship a product back to us that you contact us at customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com or call 888-962-5877.

Please have the date of purchase or the order ID number and we will be more than willing to issue a Return Merchandise Authorization Number.

We also ask that if you return a product to us that you do so via the US Postal Service and that you send the product via Flat Rate Priority Mail to the following address:

Brad Bacher

1170 Sycamore Dr.

Brigham City, Utah

84302

Any refunds will be issued within 24 hours of the date of an arrival of product back to our facility and will include the cost of return

shipping if Flat Rate Priority Mail is used. We apologize for this problem and thank you for your attention on this matter.

Sincerely,


Brad Bacher

Box Elder Chemical Supply

I did not receive this email as I ordered my BE nic liquid through Gourmet Vapor. I wonder if Gourmet Vapor will make a similar recall offer... I bought a half liter of 48mg PG based BE nic liquid on 1 June 2011.

 

[kinabaloo]

From my local Brick and mortar store None of these would test they immediately turned yellow
Cowboy killer
Banana Taffy
Vanilla menthol
RY4
Apple pie
Strawberry lemonade
Pineapple Crush
Cinnamon

These worked
From AVE
rafalicious
Bobas

All are 24mg and none seem to be too strong or too weak I was just curious to see the outcome but kept testing since none were working.

Are they all made by the store? Or all of the same brand?

-- edit: after re-reading, I guess the ones that worked were a different brand (AVE)

I expect that all those 8 have some ascorbic or citric acid added. It's the minority of e-liquids but some vendors do this.

An earlier report said that a Cherry worked fine, so that clearly didn't have any added acid, even though one might half-expect it for that flavor.

Thanks for the report though; very interesting. Added acid just wipes out the freebase nic and gives a null result rather than a misleading one - which is not surprising really as nic is only weakly basic. And fortuitous too as it is easy to distinguish these liquids from ones that might otherwise be thought under-strength.

+++

Out of curiosity, do the acidified e-liquids seem just as good when vaped (TH etc)? I've heard they are, just wondered what are your thoughts?

It is believed that heating in the atomiser/carto dissociates the nicotine salts to release the freebase nic as the nic salts are only weakly ionised in solution.

+++

@tmcase - there were updates a page or two back. Aim for 'just into pure yellow' as per original instructions with the kit.

 

[ambientech]

Why would they add the ascorbic or citric acid ?

No the th seems much weaker with her juice.

 

[mjradik]

What I am thinking is this:

You need:

2 syringes
BB
nic liquid
H2SO4
Distilled water
A tall glass that you can swirl about 40 mL of liquid without splashing

Use syringe to deliver 1 mL on nic liquid to the glass. Add about 20 mL of water. Swirl until completely mixed. Add 2-4 drops of BB, swirl again.

Use other syringe to little by little add H2SO4 to the glass, all the while swirling with the other hand (ideally...certainly swirl until fully mixed after each addition).

When the color starts to JUST turn yellow, you are done. Volume in the formula should be 1 mL + volume of acid added from the syringe graduations.

Kurt's Kitchen Titration.

Kurt, I went ahead and gave this a try. I added 1ml of 36mg labeled 25%VG/75%VG. 4 drops blue, and roughly 40ml dis water. I'm using a 3ml syringe. I did the test, but found it EXTREAMLY difficult to see the color change because the 'yellow' is basically clear. It goes blue to green to greenish-clear to clear (it you look VERY hard you can see yellow) So I did it again, but only used 10ml water, and 8 drops blue. The yellow was bright as day now. It tested to 35.046mg. I did not read the final volume in the glass. I started off with 2ml of acid in my syringe, and when the solution turned yellow, I stopped, and there was 0.2 ml acid left in the syringe so I used 1.8ml acid. (1.8x19.47=35.046). I did the same test with grad cylinder and result was exact the same (using 2 drops blue). Of course I’m very used to the kit, and I know how to read the markings. So it seems the amount of blue does not effect the amount to much.

I think 10ml water should be enough for 100%VG, (which I don’t have) but if not, could prolly use 20ml water and 12 drops blue maybe? I might try it again with about 20 drops of blue see if the results are off.

One thing noted in the test instructions is the margin of error of reading the cylinder. And the cylinder does come with 0.1 graduations. If someone reads off by .1ml the test will be off 2mg, regardless of the strength of nicotine. So 100 could test at 98, and 10 could test at 8. (Where one is 2% and the other is 20%) That’s why its states margin error +/- 2mg, not +/- 10%.

I can see how a newbie to this could mess up the readings, and they why you want to eliminate the cylinder, and go with the syringe. I kind of agree. There is one draw back to the syringe. It needs to be new and fresh. As a DIY’er after a syringe gets used a while, it starts to get ‘sticky’ and adding drops of .05ml at a time becomes very tough. (plus you have to have a steady hand)

 

[kinabaloo]

Kurt, I went ahead and gave this a try. I added 1ml of 36mg labeled 25%VG/75%VG. 4 drops blue, and roughly 40ml dis water. I'm using a 3ml syringe. I did the test, but found it EXTREAMLY difficult to see the color change because the 'yellow' is basically clear. It goes blue to green to greenish-clear to clear (it you look VERY hard you can see yellow) So I did it again, but only used 10ml water, and 8 drops blue. The yellow was bright as day now. It tested to 35.046mg. I did not read the final volume in the glass. I started off with 2ml of acid in my syringe, and when the solution turned yellow, I stopped, and there was 0.2 ml acid left in the syringe so I used 1.8ml acid. (1.8x19.47=35.046). I did the same test with grad cylinder and result was exact the same (using 2 drops blue). Of course I’m very used to the kit, and I know how to read the markings. So it seems the amount of blue does not effect the amount to much.

I think 10ml water should be enough for 100%VG, (which I don’t have) but if not, could prolly use 20ml water and 12 drops blue maybe? I might try it again with about 20 drops of blue see if the results are off.

One thing noted in the test instructions is the margin of error of reading the cylinder. And the cylinder does come with 0.1 graduations. If someone reads off by .1ml the test will be off 2mg, regardless of the strength of nicotine. So 100 could test at 98, and 10 could test at 8. (Where one is 2% and the other is 20%) That’s why its states margin error +/- 2mg, not +/- 10%.

I can see how a newbie to this could mess up the readings, and they why you want to eliminate the cylinder, and go with the syringe. I kind of agree. There is one draw back to the syringe. It needs to be new and fresh. As a DIY’er after a syringe gets used a while, it starts to get ‘sticky’ and adding drops of .05ml at a time becomes very tough. (plus you have to have a steady hand)

I think Kurt's getting some sleep, but this is great feedback! That the amount of blue does not affect the result significantly is really useful to know - and other tips.

Key point : feel free to use more drops of blue to see the color better.

It's really encouraging that this test kit works well (for unflavored liquids at least; and some flavoreds)

ps: did you see the posts about using digital weighing scales? A bit more maths, but if you want to be really really accurate ...

 

[mjradik]

Why would they add the ascorbic or citric acid ?

No the th seems much weaker with her juice.

Thats very interesting.. I would say they forgot to add nic, and your vaping 0mg nic, but if that was the case, I would think someone would be able to tell 24mg from 0 mg... HUGE difference. So I don't think thats the case. Since 8 different flavors from 1 vendor all gave near nill result, then acidic additives must have been added to the base nic juice and not the flavoring its self to null the results of the test....if this is the case. Or maybe since its leff TH, the 24 is maybe actually 12 or so, and the added acids nill the test. There really is no way to tell with out going directly to the source.

 

[kinabaloo]

Thats very interesting.. I would say they forgot to add nic, and your vaping 0mg nic

lol

+++

There was a reason for repeatedly pushing the (very real) high nic danger, even though it got annoying to the people here who who already knew it well, but I want to hold off a bit the explanation. But a big clue is the recent announcement; it wasn't aimed at people here but to a different audience.

I guess that's the cat out the bag. Not just for the needed recall, but the change of heart. No ploy (the danger is real and the errors were persistent); but it did mean being a bit of a pain in the .... for a while.

 

[pinellaspete]

Okay...My take on this situation.

A lot of people have been commenting on this industry to be self regulated. I think that this might be a first for any US industry. I can't think of any industry that is not regulated by the government in some way shape or form in the USA.

Let me just run an average US citizens day by you and the regulations involved:

Wake up, take a shower and brush teeth.
PUCO Public Utility Commission: regulated the electricity for your alarm clock and lights.
EPA: Regulated the water you used to shower and brushed your teeth with.
Local Water District: Decided if and how much fluoride was in that water.
OSHA Occupational Safety and Heath Administration: Made sure all these products were produced in a safe manner.
FCC Federal Communication Commission: Regulated the radio station that woke you up and actually controlled the speech of the DJ that did it. (No swearing allowed!)

You have breakfast:

Agricultural Department: Insured your breakfast was nutritious.
FDA:
EPA:
CPSC Consumer Product Safety Commission: Made sure all the appliances you used were safe.
UL Underwriters Laboratories: Made sure all those electrical appliances were safe to use. (Actually made sure that the manufacturers built safe appliances so they qualified to buy insurance in case you hurt yourself. Without UL approval you usually can't buy business insurance covering your products. This is not a government agency by the way!)
OSHA: Made sure everything you used was produced in a safe manner.

Okay...I hope you get the idea.

There are regulations everywhere!

Do you really want me to list all the regulations involved with getting in your car and driving to work?

I'm not going there! I type way too slow for that to happen in this lifetime!

But...Just think about it for a moment.

Crash tests.
Insurance rates.
Police and Sheriff Departments.
All that signage. (Whoaaa wasn't that a stop sign?)
Gasoline. (Octane anyone?)
Gasoline. (I wonder why the County Auditor has those stickers on the pump? And they are renewed every year?)
Tires. (Just what do all those strange letters mean anyway?)
Batteries. (What was that battery warrantied for?)
3 years or 36,000 miles. (Wow, that was close call, I'm glad that failed at 34K!)

If you think about it, the list could be endless!

The reason ALL these everyday items are regulated are because of consumer complaints and problems!

They all involve HEALTH and SAFETY!
I think selling 272mg nicotine as 100mg nicotine is a violation of health and safety.
That's why we need government regulation.

If you think we can get by with self regulation, then these types of things NEED to happen:

Quit being Matt Lauer while interviewing vaping suppliers!
Ask the HARD questions!
Think Barbara Walters!

Where do you get your Nicotine from?
Do you test?
Do you have chemists on staff?
How many people do you employ?
How about this one? Walk us through the procedure that you use to take 1000mg nicotine to 100mg nicotine.
Just how many minutes of mixing is required to ensure proper emulsification of the pure nicotine and PG? VG?
Do you subcontract out any of these procedures?
How long have you been in business?
Please, walk me through your QC procedures.

HARD QUESTIONS!

The only reason people don't want the government involved is because they ask the HARD questions ALL the time! (At least once a year.)(To everyone of us: How much did you earn last year? We're still here. So will our qualified good vendors.)
If our vendors don't have answers to these and other HARD questions, we need to use vendors that answer our questions.

Some people think I have issues with 1 man operations. I do not!
I was just incensed by THE CEO calling himself THE CEO about a hundred times the other night. Ya know...You really can be the CEO of a one person operation and do a fantastic job for your customers, I just don't think THE CEO is doing that for us.

Okay...This has gotten way way too long.

Pete

 

[Raven_Blackblade]

I did not receive this email as I ordered my BE nic liquid through Gourmet Vapor. I wonder if Gourmet Vapor will make a similar recall offer... I bought a half liter of 48mg PG based BE nic liquid on 1 June 2011.

Box Elder, Gourmet Vapor, and Honeyville are one in the same.

 

[Kurt]

So the results I got should be correct since I stopped at yellow?

within the limitations of the method itself, and the measuring devices. There is no correct, there is only less uncertain.

 

[kinabaloo]

I think the main reason people dont want the government involved is because it wouldnt work in our best interests.

Too sleepy to take in the whole post atm.

There are trading laws that could be brought up; but it isn't in our interest to make a public fuss given our prcarious situation. Hopefully things have now worked out reasonably well and there have been and won't be any harm done. The potential now for proactive steps and self/independent 'regulation'/improvements is good. Let's build on it.

 

[Kurt]

I think Kurt's getting some sleep, but this is great feedback! That the amount of blue does not affect the result significantly is really useful to know - and other tips.

Key point : feel free to use more drops of blue to see the color better.

It's really encouraging that this test kit works well (for unflavored liquids at least; and some flavoreds)

ps: did you see the posts about using digital weighing scales? A bit more maths, but if you want to be really really accurate ...

Not sleep yet, just a whole lot of PMs! But sleep is calling soon. Will read these last posts....

 

[kinabaloo]

within the limitations of the method itself, and the measuring devices. There is no correct, there is only less uncertain.

The more you know, the more you ralise you don't know ...

 

[ambientech]

Thats very interesting.. I would say they forgot to add nic, and your vaping 0mg nic, but if that was the case, I would think someone would be able to tell 24mg from 0 mg... HUGE difference. So I don't think thats the case. Since 8 different flavors from 1 vendor all gave near nill result, then acidic additives must have been added to the base nic juice and not the flavoring its self to null the results of the test....if this is the case. Or maybe since its leff TH, the 24 is maybe actually 12 or so, and the added acids nill the test. There really is no way to tell with out going directly to the source.

I wondered why my ave juices all hit harder than any other vendors juice
I just tested 3 juices from KBV and all 3 showed 13mg
Tested another juice from local vendor that was one of the first I got from her about 6 weeks ago it came out 8mg All juice was supposed to be 24mg.
Would like to talk to her about it but at this point I am not sure if this is accurate enough to do so. KBV is a trusted vendor yet the 3 I have came up weak.

 

[Kurt]

Why would they add the ascorbic or citric acid ?

No the th seems much weaker with her juice.

Vermont Vapor adds citric acid to lower the pH of the base nic they use to make their 35 mg, in order to reduce the smell. I know this for a fact. Some flavors have acids in them and might cause a false reading.

Kinda leaning towards the no nic thing though...nic juice WAS included in the titration, right? Sorry, had to ask.

 

[Circumspice]

Box Elder, Gourmet Vapor, and Honeyville are one in the same.

I know that... And yet, I did not receive that email.

 

[kinabaloo]

Why would they add the ascorbic or citric acid ?

No the th seems much weaker with her juice.

Intersting. Will look into it in the coming days. I don't think the acid addition is wise as they will not vaporise.

 

[kinabaloo]

Vermont Vapor adds citric acid to lower the pH of the base nic they use to make their 35 mg, in order to reduce the smell. I know this for a fact. Some flavors have acids in them and might cause a false reading.

Kinda leaning towards the no nic thing though...nic juice WAS included in the titration, right? Sorry, had to ask.

Have you been drinking ??? I know had a glass or two.

ps re the dilute vs weak post: I had just caught sight of Cozzicon's alert and that threw me - honest Plus I didn't mean to be technical, just to point out that it wouldn't dissolve your fingers (just your skin slightly)