Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[cookiebun]

I believe after this, if a e-juice vendor won't tell a customer where it gets it's nic from, that would be a vendor I would not use.
Telling where they get their nic from does not disclose their "flavor" recipes and it should not be a problem for them to disclose this nic information.
JMO.

ETA: This seriously reinforces my personal desire to go nic-less as soon as possible. Zero nic. I have a ways to go to ween off, but it is a goal more now then ever.

You can do it! I did.
Stuff like this makes me glad I gave up nic.
Seriously, stuff like this is going to get our hobby banned. How many people will go back to analogs if nicotine sales in the mail gets banned by the FDA because of crap like this?

 

[kinabaloo]

deleted as email a big ambiguous.

+++

but it is fair to say that BE dilutes the nicotine source which theu seem to suggest they strength test when it arrives. So the problem seems located at BE.

+++

High strength nicotine, certainly when approaching 99%, is viscous so the mixing error might be at the first dilution to 10%.

 

[Sdh]

I posted the email so you guys can be refreshed on their claims. I personally do not believe them.

 

[roygodbold]

Due to the expense of nicotine, any discrepancy in an initial dilution would be recognized as product entered our distribution facility. For example if a dilution were incorrect, we would receive a much smaller amount of our most expensive component.

But if the dilution was inconsistent, as Kurts list shows, if it averaged out there would be no way of telling- if that is
how they are 'testing' the product.

 

[RichieRich]

Oddly, last night I received my order of e-liquid, 0 nic. So, I am glad I am no longer using nicotine, but I am still concerned with those of you who do use nicotine. How many other orders had gone out before this was discovered? Better question, how can we prevent this from happening again?

I know mistakes happen. I highly doubt anything malicious was intended. I for one hope Box Elder finds out what happened and fixes it. And, I would hope they agree that some type of independent body should randomly test all e-liquid distributors.

 

[markfm]

kinabaloo -- exactly that Someone has packaged it up, sells a little kit with 5ml of the BB, 60ml of the acid, graduated cylinder, pipette, as well as "refills" of just the BB and acid available for about half the price. Price point is low enough to be an easy pickup. (nice to be able to get everything except the distilled water at one shot, rather than scrounging it up)

 

[Seabrook]

Pulling this forward so it doesn't get buried.

To those that have offered to contribute to defray Kurt's expenses:

Please PM me for his PayPal addy.

I contacted Kurt to obtain his permission to post this and he reluctantly agreed.

Again, thanx, Kurt! View attachment 63113

 

[carpedebass]

I for one hope Box Elder finds out what happened and fixes it. And, I would hope they agree that some type of independent body should randomly test all e-liquid distributors.

Indeed...but the damage has been done in that they apparently attempted to ridicule their user base and made the (erroneous) assumption that their user base was too stupid to figure anything like this out. I say shame on 'em. They'll never get a dime of my business!!

 

[Kurt]

Thanks, Sdh! Well, there it is. I take issue with the test merely testing for the presence of nicotine. It actually does no such thing. It tests for the presence of a weak base with the pKb close to that of nicotine, but it does not validate that the base is actually nicotine. It could one of many amines of the same basicity. Sloppy wording to a chemist. I am assuming the base is nicotine, based on the odor and product label, but only NMR or MS would actually ID the base. Might be picky here. I do know what they meant, though, and I disagree with that. They meant you cannot use the test to quantitate the amount of nic. Qualitatively as long as it is done properly, it should get within about 10% of the actual. It is less quantitative than a buret titration, but that too is somewhat limited by the fact that it is an indicator that is being used, and not the pH. If they try to argue with a pH titration curve they are getting in way over their heads.

Kin: I think the number of vendors adjusting the pH of their liquids is quite low. It seems the vast majority are just using freebase. There is unfortunately only one way to tell, however, and that is with a pH meter. VV liquid does not come up to me much different than a DIY I make with BE or MFS in terms of vaping.

 

[Fernand]

I had some serious thought about this last night. If BB does step in, and consumers aren't allowed to buy nic liquid, then I'll just vape 0 nic. I can buy everything else I need, and most of it locally. From what I understand, I can even get flavors if I ask the pharmacist. With a little ingenuity, I can make a PV too. Knowledge is out, can't take that away.

Ok, I'll even take that further. If I want some nicotine in there, I'll get it too. And i mean it. But at that point we're in the same scenario as with some other substances, paying through the nose to profiteers, or having to expend brain cells on avoiding detection. And I don't WANT to have to go through that, I want to be left alone. So don't ask the wolf in to protect the sheep, he is only waiting for that.

Let me add that I'm not a right winger or even libertarian. I believe in public safety standards, roads, schools. But there are areas in which regulation is counter-productive. Standards should and will emerge, and we'll buy from the houses that can convincingly adhere to them. And still accidents, errors and omissions will happen. We are an imperfect species. For all of the vaping we do, we have remarkably few problems. This incident is actually proof of how well people are able to take care of themselves.

 

[TallGrass]

For the record, I sent an email to Jason at Vapor Renu asking if his liquids were based on this source. This is the response I got:

Vapor Renu/Flavor West LLC. does not purchase or resale nicotine from any "juice vendors". We are an actual manufacturing facility that is licensed to purchase materials direct from source. We supply a large amount of private label or "bulk" wholesale vendors and take no liability under any product that does not carry our label.

So it looks like their liquid at least isn't affected by these shoddy QC issues.

Isn't this basically the same thing Box Elder said in that email they sent to everybody?

 

[kinabaloo]

Oddly, last night I received my order of e-liquid, 0 nic. So, I am glad I am no longer using nicotine, but I am still concerned with those of you who do use nicotine. How many other orders had gone out before this was discovered? Better question, how can we prevent this from happening again?

I know mistakes happen. I highly doubt anything malicious was intended. I for one hope Box Elder finds out what happened and fixes it. And, I would hope they agree that some type of independent body should randomly test all e-liquid distributors.

Yes, most important is that it is sorted out.

Have looked into ways that an (intermediate) nic solution might unmix by itself. I think this could only occur with freebase nic in water alone (unlikely situation). Checked some bottles of nic in PG I have undistubed for many months and the distribution is perfect (judging from color).

I wonder if they messed up teir titrations but taking into account acid content and overcompensated, or something like that.

 

[kinabaloo]

kinabaloo -- exactly that Someone has packaged it up, sells a little kit with 5ml of the BB, 60ml of the acid, graduated cylinder, pipette, as well as "refills" of just the BB and acid available for about half the price. Price point is low enough to be an easy pickup. (nice to be able to get everything except the distilled water at one shot, rather than scrounging it up)

Would be awesome if this went mainstream; a big step for self-regulation, consumer confidence and keeping suppliers on their toes.

 

[laurel099]

Hmm.. Just read this on Google+

#VapeTV Exclusive 2Night! Brad From Box Elder Discusses w/@Cozzicon 10PM - This Is 1 Show U Do Not Want 2 Miss! #VTV

VapeTV | VapeTVLive

Be curious to see what Brad from Box Elder has to say! Tune in folks

 

[cozzicon]

Tonight on Vape TV, 10pm EST:

Brad Bacher Responds...

In an exclusive VapeTV interview, Mr. Bacher has agreed to a no-holds-barred interview regarding the recent allegations and ensuing "scandal".

All members of the community are invited to attend and/or submit questions. Additional calls will be taken via Skype from interested parties to join in the discussion.

To submit a question in writing please e-mail: cozzicon@gmail.com

To possibly be selected for a call-in add "cozzicon" in Skype.

This show may run longer than an hour. It's certainly going to be an interesting ride.

Catch the show at 10pmEST here: VapeTVLive on Stickam - Join the live stream

 

[Katya]

Kurt, thank you for your service to this community. As others have already offered, if you are willing to take donations to help cover your costs, count me in. All I need is a PayPal addy.

What she said. I too will be happy to contribute. Just let us know.

And thanks, Kurt! Great work, as usual!

 

[Katya]

Tonight on Vape TV, 10pm EST:

Brad Bacher Responds...

And thanks, Cozz!

 

[carpedebass]

What she said. I too will be happy to contribute. Just let us know.

And thanks, Kurt! Great work, as usual!

Kat, PM Iffy for Kurt's PP addy.

 

[Katya]

Thanks, Carp!

 

[carpedebass]

Thanks, Carp!

Betcha!!!!!