Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

Status
Not open for further replies.

oldsoldier

Retired ECF Forum Manager
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 17, 2010
12,503
8,000
Lurking in the shadows
www.reboot-n.com
I will not allow anyone to bypass the proper procedures and advertise or promote their business without properly registering through the supplier admin. The kits are available and several people have linked the source, but we will not allow profiteering and advertising to cloud the issue.
 

AzPlumber

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 28, 2011
5,051
9,789
Arizona
Anyone on the BE mailig list check their email today?? I just recieved one that they will issue a refund on any of their product a customer is not happy with. Made an appology for any mistakes that could have been made and a promise to improve quality. Thankfully nobody was harmed and hopefully this whole thing is a valuable learning experience for all. Kurt thanks agian for all your hard work to bring the facts into the open. Happy Vapes

The email has been discussed and it was posted a few pages back. We just haven't heard about anyone that was harmed, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened or won't happen. No way of knowing how much of this stuff is out there.
 

Tom10

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 23, 2011
553
275
Oklahoma
That email sure doesn't make me feel any better, and in my opinion it should have been sent sooner. This is a good time to be proactive and show you give a damn, but he seems to be waiting for us to push him to do the right thing. "If your'e not satisfied", maybe it should have said if you're not dead; because I'm pretty sure no one is really satisfied at the moment.

Do a recall, and shut down shipping new product until you're 100% POSITIVE that your product is up to par and coming out correctly!

Once again I don't notice anywhere that he actually says HOW they're changing either.

Damn, the email's gone now, so you'll just have to take my word for it :D

I'm hopeful that this sad situation will result in positive steps for the entire industry. What should average folks expect when the product in question can seriously injure or kill in concentrations not meant for human consumption of any kind. The industry should come up with standards and post what they do or don't do for the safety of their customers. I would personally choose to have the industry police itself than to have government step in and red-tape things to death. If I were a vendor, I would choose common sense methods to protect my customers. I would post those measures and stick with them because I would want to build a reputation of trust. The solutions to this problem are relatively easy, and I doubt that most customers would mind paying a little bit more for something known to be safe. Again, if I were a vendor, I would do reasonable things now and not wait for the government to tell me to. I don't think that any of us want the government involved in this. Prominently post what is done in the area of safety and let the public decide who to do business with. Those vendors who do nothing shouldn't expect many customers. I am a DIYer, and I expect to see notices of this type before I make any future purchases. If the prices are raised 10% to pay for safety measures, I'm fine with that.
 
Last edited:

Katya

ECF Guru
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 23, 2010
34,804
120,147
SoCal
Last edited:

Prettycat191

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 1, 2011
1,387
924
Plano, TX
Yes we do. This issue has been challenged for months in literally hundreds of posts on several forums. We have been turned into the FTC and FDA and have been audited by both but our claims of USA extraction remain unchanged on our website. So what would a logical and reasonable person conclude from that? Seriously? If these Federal Government agencies found I was misrepresenting the facts do you think they would continue to let us make deceptive claims? Of course not.

Most of the people demanding I provide them proof are competitors wanting to know how we do it so they can replicate it. Enough said on this old and very tired subject.

This is what I was going to say, there are good reasons why they may not choose to release such information.

Nobody ever gave me a satisfactory explanation of WHY nic couldn't POSSIBLY be extracted in the US, other than cost. They just kept reiterating that ALL nic came from China etc., and when I asked for proof of that I was just ignored. Fact is, cost doesn't have to be high just because it's done in the US. I know of plenty of US made products that can still be made for a good price for the end-user.

That's all I'm gonna say on that issue.

Now, back on topic, I'm considering ordering one of these kits , because I'm a bloody perfectionist and I'll probably get a close enough to correct result from it to feel comfortable. I think it's a good idea because I'll at least know that it's not crazy far off base. I hope I never find the need to use it, but mistakes can and DO happen. I figure $15 is a good price to spend for my relative safety. Plus, I just got some nic that I'm not sure about, it's either really oxidized or something because it's darker than I expected. It was in a PIF, so I'm not sure where it came from. I haven't opened it to smell yet, mostly because I will NOT open it with my kids around. I do know that it's supposed to be 20ml's of 100mg in a VG base.
 

oldsoldier

Retired ECF Forum Manager
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 17, 2010
12,503
8,000
Lurking in the shadows
www.reboot-n.com
Liv, it started here, but the post was self-edited by OP:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...lem-nic-titration-results-74.html#post4589887

And then reposted by OP at the end of discussion.... Kinda hard to follow...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...lem-nic-titration-results-77.html#post4590876

Tmcase, if it's OK with Sarge, maybe it would be worth inserting it back into the original post? The whole conversation makes little sense without the BE's email...
I'm trying real hard to keep this thread useful and within the TOS. I have made some "command decisions" about some things that are on the edge of what is normally allowed to preserve the usefulness of the information presented here. I may get over ruled by Angus or Roly at some point, but I have confidence that they see things the same way I do and that they will let this thread continue. All I ask is that people try to follow the "spirit of the law" and don't take my variances from normally allowed practices as carte blanche to go crazy.
 

krazie_Kid

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 10, 2010
1,965
354
36
Long Island
www.vapor4life.com
Kurt,

I have been a vaper for about a year and seven months now, and I rarely go out side Vapor 4 Life's sub forum, because I am a customer to them and not a DIY.

Since I am not a DIY person (I am clumsy irl and afraid I will hurt myself) I wish to thank you so much for what you have done by taking the time out of your busy day to do some testing.

This is rediclous and uncalled for, for a vender to be doing something like this. I truly hope that vender's will start getting on the ball and stepping their game up.
 

Katya

ECF Guru
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 23, 2010
34,804
120,147
SoCal
I'm trying real hard to keep this thread useful and within the TOS. I have made some "command decisions" about some things that are on the edge of what is normally allowed to preserve the usefulness of the information presented here. I may get over ruled by Angus or Roly at some point, but I have confidence that they see things the same way I do and that they will let this thread continue. All I ask is that people try to follow the "spirit of the law" and don't take my variances from normally allowed practices as carte blanche to go crazy.

Yes, Sir! :)

Understood!
 

Prettycat191

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 1, 2011
1,387
924
Plano, TX
Here's a piece of advice: Don't take more than a brief whiff of 100mg nic! I'm woozy now.

This nic smells like butter to me. The person I got it from hasn't been online in over a week now, so I don't know where it's from. I think I may test it before I use it just to be sure.

Anyone know about how long it takes to get a test kit if I order it in the mail? Should I test the 100mg nic, or would it be better to cut it down by half first?
 

orachel

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 2, 2010
3,343
6,245
50
Mesa, Arizona...USA
I wouldn't be too worried about it too quickly. Do what I do. Watch the news. When you see this story hit the news, then you can start to worry. It seems to me that the government worries about things when the masses of people worry about things. If the general public doesn't know about our little snafu in this relatively small community, then it usually stays this way....small and unnoticed by everyone.

You know, I totally agree with you, but I'm noticing that I'm a little fearfully watching for that news broadcast to happen. I noticed a link on facebook to this thread, and as important as I think it is to absolutely make sure that people are INFORMED that this happened if there's a possibility that they might have some severely mis-labeled liquid that could be highly dangerous, my first reaction was 'aaaaak!!!!'... not a link on facebook! rofl

I can't even gauge if my emotional reaction was reasonable or not, because I know this industry has some very vocal and very aggressive enemies. I don't understand most of em (what on earth could the American Cancer Association possibly have against vaping?), but I know they're out there, and it only takes one to blow this internal snafu into a huge mess that could affect the whole industry negatively. THAT would really be a tragedy. And its ridiculous that I'm having to worry about that, but it does seem to me that vaping industry has been heavily criticized for things that are ludicrous. Just a shame that one vendor (and it could even possibly be one EVENT, since it seems like the batches affected are pretty small) mishandling something SO badly could bring so much negative attention on all of the hundreds of small vendors who are doing it RIGHT. And that I have to worry about that one rabid watchdogger from an organization doing everything they can to smoosh vaping industry catching the tiniest hint of scandal so they can blow it up into a huge Dangerous Vaping Scandal just ticks me right off. I'm not a fearful person, but I reaaaallly enjoy vaping and it allows me to stay tobacco free and not worry about relapsing. I wish I didn't have to worry that there was a big brother out there looking for any excuse to raise a ruckus against us, but unfortunately, I think there really is.

Ok...officially stepping off my soapbox, now. ;)
 

GMoney

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 12, 2011
585
354
MA
Here's a piece of advice: Don't take more than a brief whiff of 100mg nic! I'm woozy now.

This nic smells like butter to me. The person I got it from hasn't been online in over a week now, so I don't know where it's from. I think I may test it before I use it just to be sure.

Anyone know about how long it takes to get a test kit if I order it in the mail? Should I test the 100mg nic, or would it be better to cut it down by half first?

I ordered a test kit today(the ebay kit that has been mentioned previously in this thread). I got an email stating that he just received more supplies and my kit would be shipping out tomorrow and would take approximately 5 business days depending on location. Judging by the sellers location and mine and USPS frist class mail, I expect to have it sooner. I would expect if you ordered it now you might have it by the end of next week - but you never know with USPS these days. It may be possible to expedite the shipping, I did not check.
 

Prettycat191

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 1, 2011
1,387
924
Plano, TX
I ordered a test kit today(the ebay kit that has been mentioned previously in this thread). I got an email stating that he just received more supplies and my kit would be shipping out tomorrow and would take approximately 5 business days depending on location. Judging by the sellers location and mine and USPS frist class mail, I expect to have it sooner. I would expect if you ordered it now you might have it by the end of next week - but you never know with USPS these days. It may be possible to expedite the shipping, I did not check.

Thanks! USPS has already slowed down for the holidays apparently.
 

Rainz

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 15, 2011
116
112
Winnipeg, Canada
Hi Kurt,

Just listened to the VapeTv interview about the Box Elder fiasco.

I think you mentioned a test that we, the end users, could do with a pH meter to get a 'ballpark' level of the nicotine in our e-liquid. I have one that I use often to test the levels of my hydroponic solutions, so I know how to calibrate it and such. It's not an expensive meter, but think it works quite well.... and these are not difficult to obtain for any vaper, if they so desire.

Would you be able to lay out a simple procedure for us to test our e-liquids with this basic gear?

[btw, growing peppers, not smokables ;)]

Thanks for giving your time and energy for this cause!
 
Last edited:

carpedebass

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 10, 2011
2,168
1,500
56
The Alamo City
Exactly. It's the same thing as in the Patent Office: random and capricious. And given that it's the same slapstick crew that is doing regulation-related work when they're not doing prohibition-related work, the people who idolize regulation have no idea who and what they're inviting into the chicken coop.

Somehow our regulated and ISO certified Big Pharma and Big Tobacco manage to kill more people than BE and all the 10 bottle a week juice vendors with their proverbial snot-nosed kids and pizza crust laden mixing tables.

The people who get a kick out of chewing on moral indignation over human error must wake up each morning amazed that the sun is up again.

I love what you're saying here Fernand. That's why I am saying that we should be a SELF regulated user base. We need to avoid exactly what you're speaking of!!
 

carpedebass

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 10, 2011
2,168
1,500
56
The Alamo City
This could be a golden opportunity for the vaping community. Regulation of the industry is inevitable and I believe regulation will give us a 99.9% confidence level in a products we buy. The last thing the industry needs is government regulation, which will give the industry laws, rules, fees, penalties and headaches beyond normal reason. That is the nature of government. This is the time to form a responsible, self-regulating association. The association can draft a code of ethics, a quality control system, written procedures, training, standards, product tolerances, vendor surveillance and anything it requires to maintain service, product quality and customer confidence in the industry.

Envision a group of responsible vendors meeting with this intention. Forming an association, selecting a board of directors, incorporating, setting fees for participating vendors and publicly publishing a list of members for us consumers. Any vendor that isn't on the list, doesn't get our money.

Let's face it, no matter what industry or business you can think of, there are always those that are unscrupulous. They will tell us anything to gain our confidence in their quest for our money. Kurt indicated he's getting a rush of vendors that want testing on their product. Are these the vendors that have little or no quality control at their facility and are suspicious of the nic content of their liquid?

If I had a company and suspected product I sold could harm or cause death, then I would immediately start an investigation into the nature of the suspect product, assuming accurate records were kept. Without verification of quality, then I would notify all my customers that my product may be suspect and pay them to have it tested or send it back for testing. "Employee error" is not the root cause of a discrepancy. What caused the employee to err? Was it inadequate training, little or no supervision, sloppy procedures, distractions, tiredness, inadequate tools or equipment to do the job, etc.? Without documented QC procedures, there is no evidence a discrepancy occurred, which is just cause to shut down the operation.

Just some thoughts ...

This is precisely what I've been saying since this thread began!! If such a regulation is not provided by our community, it will (eventually) be provided by the government.
 

warlike36

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 13, 2010
2,142
652
54
Seymour,IN.
I find all of this absolutely insane..... What were they (BE) thinking, if they think at all. Could someone "link" me this kit that has been mentioned, or PM me a link? I would like to start testing all my nic. And can you test nic that is already mixed, ready to vape ?

Also, I thank you Kurt, for all you have done.
 

Fernand

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 5, 2010
907
747
Californeea
They are aware of the affected lot numbers and should be doing a recall. This is a small step in the right direction, but far short of what is needed.

This isn't a case of not being satisfied - many companies offer this kind of return policy as standard anyway; it is not a case of dud bateries, it is a matter of dangerous goods having been shipped that need to be traced, and fast.
...
There are bottles out there at ~10x normal concentration, from which just a fraction of 1 ml could kill. A newbie could get a cart leak and unknowingly or by reaction swallow it. At 24mg you'd almost certainly survive; at 240mg you may well not.
..
It is a disgrace.

Wait, wait. There are some bottles out there at 2.7x normal concentration. Not 10x. Why these theatrics? Nobody puts concentrated nicotine for dilution into cartos.

Do we understand how he numbers lots? What is a "lot"? From some of the dates I've seen, a "lot" could cover a couple months of shipped product. I have some Lot 255 sitting on my desk (that seems fine). I received it in two shipments, a few days apart. It has the (year's) expiration stamped, a few days apart in November 2011. These expiration dates are probably the best identifying codes we should be looking at to narrow down the search for the high nic bottles. Are you really demanding that all of the lot 256 and 257 stuff be recalled? We are the ones with knowledge of which lot + expiry dates are involved. He probably doesn't know. We should be feeding that back to him ASAP so he CAN recall the stuff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread