How Confident Are We That These Are Actually Safe?

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

I was reading through a lot of old posts and it just doesn't seem that anyone ever found solid proof that what we are doing is actually a good idea. It seems like for the most part we are just assuming that vaping is better than smoking because smoking is just so bad.

There are posts about pg and vg and its relative safety but one can't be completely sure what years and years of inhaling either one directly into the lungs will actually do. Then there's the whole juice issue. We are getting juice made in unknown Chinese factories shipped over in boxes and mixed in other random places before it is sent to our door. I read posts about people having bad reactions to one juice and not to another. In reality, we really have no idea what we are inhaling into our bodies. We wouldn't know if the product was contaminated or if it was created in a sterile environment. We can't possibly know whether or not the entire activity has any unknown long term effects. We don't know what all the "good flavorings" could be doing to us either.

At the end of the day it just sucks to be so addicted to something that I have to "choose my poison" --On one hand I have something I know will kill me eventually...and on the other I have some Chinese **** with no quality research done on it that could be damaging me just the same. All there seems to be right now is "what ifs" "probablys" and a slew of other assumptions. ...I wish I never picked up a cigarette in my life.

 

[JohnnyNobs]

I couln't agree more with this post. While I have not had a real cig on over 9 days, which is an unbelievable miracle, I am now starting to worry about these things. Been reading about the fog machine issues, and possible nerve damage, kidney and liver problems, UGH !!!

The juice scares the heck out of me. I have ordered from Johnson Creek because the 'say' they make in the US. Ordering juice from China is a total gamble as far as I'm concerned, one plant may be using crushed up baby fetus' as a filler for all we know.

Its the PG thats the issue. I wish they could just develop a water based juice and a vaporizer that had a reservior that dripped a drop on the heating element with every drag. I don't care if it looks like a smoke, or has a light or any of that. Just give me my direct nic hit in my lungs safely.

 

[frogbmth]

If you just want a nic hit, the nicotrol inhaler would be a far better option for you. Most of us want a more satisfying experience though and e-cigs certainly are. But I agree with these points.

We have no clue how the nicotine is extracted from tobacco to spike the e-liquid, or what other chemicals may be extracted as a by product. We have no clue what the flavourings have in them, or whether the juice is prepared in a sterile environment.

Luckily PG is antibacterial, but VG is not. There have been scientific studies covering the effects of inhaling PG and they found that there are probably no long term effects. It can make your respitory system sore and dry but thats short term. Its the other contents of e-liquid that are more questionable.

This is exactly why the FDA want the juice tested and approved. Pure PG with pharm grade nicotine and flavours known to be safe would be awesome. We are not there yet.

I am not sure TBH that we will be any time soon. Shisha has been smoked for centuries and there is almost no data about its effects. Users say it is safer than smoking but some suspect otherwise.

There are other alternatives to smoking if you are that concerned. You can buy organic tobacco with no added chemicals and vaporize it, making it 98% safer than analogs. I doubt returning to the cancer sticks is a wise move for anybody.

Andy

 

[TropicalBob]

While I agree that e-smoking is done on faith and hope mostly, all signs so far are that it is not only safer than cigarette smoking, but perhaps safe, period. PG is not an issue. In fact, inhaling vaporized PG appears to be good for you (see 'germ-killing vapor thread). I e-smoke partly for the PG. If liquid is banned, I will make my own using PG, so that I can continue the protective effects of inhaling PG.

But all your concerns are valid and we must step back and ask exactly what we want the FDA, or Congress, or the health agencies, to approve. We are petitioning for what? Aside from the unfinished Ruyan study being done in New Zealand, we have little evidence to support our practice.

And liquids are a disaster in the making. Made at unknown places in China, not inspected, not regulated for content, not overseen for quality control, with improper labeling of a poison, without an ingredient list, without a manufacturing number for track back, without childproof vials for the most part, without tamperproof sealing .. just as bad as it could possibly get for an addictive and poisonous substance. And we want approval of that?

Not gonna happen. Not in this administration or any other. It's not prudent. It doesn't make sense. It's a "clear and present danger."

We need to settle on compromises that fulfill the promise of this alternative nicotine delivery system, while protecting consumers from health risks. The present situation is untenable, and a few thousand petitioners can't make it so. We need to fix it, not support it, regulate our practice, not ban it.

 

[JohnnyNobs]

I read that 'germ killing' article, was I drunk, or was that written in 1942 ? Didn't they think a stomach ache was cause by a little demon in your stomach in 1942 ? The cure was a good bleeding ! LOL

Anyhow, I am a total noob, but I do have a serious question to anyone reading this thread ... What is the longest any of you have been vaping ? I look at videos of the experts on here and hear them state 'I've been vaping for 4 months' .. holy crap ! Is this that much in its infancy ?

If anybody on here has been vaping for over a year or more, I would love to hear about how they feel, any side effects, etc.

Like you all say, I KNOW cigs are gonna kill me, but these babies may offer some hope, so vape on !

 

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

I read that 'germ killing' article, was I drunk, or was that written in 1942 ? Didn't they think a stomach ache was cause by a little demon in your stomach in 1942 ? The cure was a good bleeding ! LOL

Anyhow, I am a total noob, but I do have a serious question to anyone reading this thread ... What is the longest any of you have been vaping ? I look at videos of the experts on here and hear them state 'I've been vaping for 4 months' .. holy crap ! Is this that much in its infancy ?

If anybody on here has been vaping for over a year or more, I would love to hear about how they feel, any side effects, etc.

Like you all say, I KNOW cigs are gonna kill me, but these babies may offer some hope, so vape on !

I hear you. I've seen that study posted many, many times before as well. I am also quite skeptical of it because, let's face it, that was a long time ago. A lot of things have changed in the way testing is done and I would only feel fully confident about pg with some more modern testing and research. I mean, they didn't even know cigarettes were bad for you back in those days. How can I really trust that research.

I just found this posted in another thread about propylene glycol:

"Chronic exposure: Lactic acidosis, stupor, and seizures have been reported following chronic ingestion.
Aggravation of Pre-existing conditions: Kidney disorders "

This seems to be getting overlooked even though this is probably some of the more current information around on pg. As vapers we are chronic users so I am extremely leery about how safe pg actually is.

 

[TropicalBob]

Time changes nothing for proper scientific studies. And that one was properly conducted. Go to the source. Look at the photos. Read the entire report. And know that subsequent studies, as pointed out by Dr. Murray Laugesen in New Zealand, have supported those 1940s' findings and elaborated that tests of inhaled PG vapor have been done on children and adults -- without a single negative consequence. Read his latest e-smoking study report.

If you want a topic I'll never shut up about, it's PG testing. Been done. Determined safe. No need to freak out newbies who think Wikipedia is the end-all of information. I am totally satisfied with that aspect of our practice. The rest of what we inhale? Unknown.

 

[JohnnyNobs]

I'm not trying to offend anybody, I just want a guilt free smoke ! I'm catholic, so that may not be even possible.

So Bob, how long have you been vaping ? Do you know anybody who has been doing it for over a year or more ? Has their anus fallen off or anything 'odd' like that ? Personally, I'd sacrifice my anus if it meant I'd could vape long term.

 

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

Time changes nothing for proper scientific studies. And that one was properly conducted. Go to the source. Look at the photos. Read the entire report. And know that subsequent studies, as pointed out by Dr. Murray Laugesen in New Zealand, have supported those 1940s' findings and elaborated that tests of inhaled PG vapor have been done on children and adults -- without a single negative consequence. Read his latest e-smoking study report.

If you want a topic I'll never shut up about, it's PG testing. Been done. Determined safe. No need to freak out newbies who think Wikipedia is the end-all of information. I am totally satisfied with that aspect of our practice. The rest of what we inhale? Unknown.

Well you've done more than your share of homework.... If you feel that confident about it then I feel a lot better about it.... Now I only have the unknowns to worry about ....think I might follow your advice in the other post - if the anxiety is getting to me too much I'm just going to be a full time snuser until (hopefully until) they get some safety standards on this stuff.

 

[mealso]

Health Information

The toxicology database for PG has been reviewed and agreed upon by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) SIAM15 process. The oral toxicity of PG is low. In one study, rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects.16 Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, PG is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive. Since 1942, it has been included in New and Non-Official Remedies as a proper ingredient for pharmaceutical products and it is listed in the United States Pharmacopoeia. It is also widely used and accepted as an ingredient in dental preparations.17 PG is not approved for use in cat food.
Prolonged PG contact is essentially non-irritating to the skin. Undiluted PG is minimally irritating to the eye, and can produce slight transient conjunctivitis (the eye recovers after the exposure is removed). Exposure to mists may cause eye irritation, as well as upper respiratory tract irritation.18 Inhalation of the PG vapors appears to present no significant hazard in ordinary applications. However, limited human experience indicates that inhalation of PG mists may be irritating to some individuals. Therefore inhalation exposure to mists of these materials should be avoided. In general, Dow does not support or recommend the use of PG in applications where inhalation exposure or human eye contact with the spray mists of these materials is likely, such as fogs for theatrical productions or antifreeze solutions for emergency eye wash stations.19
PG does not cause sensitization and shows no evidence of being a carcinigen or of being genotoxic.20
For more information on the health hazards of PG and recommended protective equipment, view the safety data sheet

 

[surbitonPete]

To put things in perspective..... just compare the long list of chemicals and compounds in cigarette smoke and then compare it to the list of chemicals you are inhaling from vaping and ask yourself which seems the least dangerous .

 

[TropicalBob]

Johnny, if you look at my "join date" you'll see it's January 2008 -- 15 months ago. I began e-smoking Jan. 3, 2008, and joined this forum. I've used an e-pipe, several e-cigars and many e-cigarettes since I began. Nothing has fallen off. I've had extensive medical tests during my time on e-cigs. All were fine. I had a recent blood test done to see if I was concentrating lactic acid from so much PG. Nope. Blood was normal.

Understand that any results for me are skewed by the fact that I'm a major nicotine addict. I usually am using more than one source of nicotine at the same time. I love snus and almost always have one in my mouth. I'm addicted to Stonewall dissolvable tobacco bits and pop one in immediately upon awakening. I smoke a pipe full of latakia tobacco blend four times a day. I e-smoke constantly, a Janty Kissbox.

I will never be able to single out for item for blame or credit. I quit a 50-year, 30-a-day cigarette habit on July 17, 2007, and haven't inhaled smoke since. At first, I was anxious and had mad cravings. That's when I returned to pipes I had bought long ago while in college. I learned of e-smoking that December and ordered the pipe that began my journey down this road.

No more smoker's cough. Great medical reports. I still have cravings, however, and miss tobacco cigarettes. Willpower and massive nicotine infusions get me over them. I love e-smoking and consider it now an essential part of my staying away from cigarettes. The same can be said of snus and dissolvables, however, and those are now coming in the crosshairs of the FDA. If it's all banned, I'm in deep doo-doo.

When I discovered those PG studies, I knew I would vaporize PG as long as I'm alive. I hope I'm given that option.

 

[JohnnyNobs]

I can't deny I feel loads better after just 9 days off real cigs ! Never could have done it with the vape.

 

[Nuck]

If you decide to go with vaping there are ways to reduce the risks. Here are a few ideas:

-Get unflavored nicotine VG or PG from a source you trust the most (I recently ordered VG unflavored from Jaaxx to try an American source)

-Cut your liquid with only USP grade VG and PG

-Use distilled water or the purest alcohol you can find to cut the VG if required.

-Limit flavors to natural flavors (more expensive and WILL limit your options)

-Avoid using cartridges as that filler material is guaranteed to be toxic. (I understand not everyone can drip ALL the time, but I'd recommend dripping over carts when possible)

Any other ideas?

 

[leaford]

"Chronic exposure: Lactic acidosis, stupor, and seizures have been reported following chronic ingestion.
Aggravation of Pre-existing conditions: Kidney disorders "

This seems to be getting overlooked even though this is probably some of the more current information around on pg. As vapers we are chronic users so I am extremely leery about how safe pg actually is.

Dude, chronic ingestion is ingesting LARGE quantities over SHORT periods of time, the exact opposite of what we do. "Serious toxicity will occur only at extremely high intakes over a relatively short period of time that result in plasma concentrations of over 4 g/L.[8]"

The reason for those effects is that the person has consumed more PG than the body can deal with. PG breaks cown into pyruvic acid and lactic acid, which the body normally produces and excretes during metabolism. So, small doses, like ours, are metabolized and excreted, but big doses all at once overload the system, causing harm.

 

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

Dude, chronic ingestion is ingesting LARGE quantities over SHORT periods of time, the exact opposite of what we do. "Serious toxicity will occur only at extremely high intakes over a relatively short period of time that result in plasma concentrations of over 4 g/L.[8]"

The reason for those effects is that the person has consumed more PG than the body can deal with. PG breaks cown into pyruvic acid and lactic acid, which the body normally produces and excretes during metabolism. So, small doses, like ours, are metabolized and excreted, but big doses all at once overload the system, causing harm.

I hear you on this... it all seems logical. For me personally though... Vaping makes me feel a little bit "off" sometimes. I don't know what is causing it. And maybe this is what makes me more prone to believing that there could be something going on with what we're doing that is being currently overlooked. I don't believe I am allergic to PG - I have absolutely no throat irritation after vaping. But I do have times when I just feel spacey and "out there" and I really hate that feeling. Since I'm not an expert in what a build up of lactic acid would cause I'm not sure if that is the issue. I do work out frequently.... maybe I just have too much lactic acid.... There is just not enough information for me to be completely sure... Whatever the case, I never got that feeling from smoking.

 

[Monkeylurv]

Does VG cause a build up in lactic acid?

I was using PG the past few days, and feeling foggy headed/spaciness effects from it. Initially I had started out with chest tightness when I woke up the 1st morning, which waxed and waned the 2nd day. The fogginess started the 2nd day, and once I cut out the menthol xtals & flavoring the chest symptoms went away.

But 3rd day, fogginess persisted. This is with less & less vaping.

I took some baking soda with water just an hour ago (reduces lactic acid) and the fogginess lifted.

Not to scare anyone, because I think I am prone to this. I had mild lactic acidosis when on metformin due to high glucose. They were somwhat different symptoms so this time I didn't pick up on it. I also have up & down blood sugar (intermittent adrenal insufficiency) because of a benign pituitary tumor & possible adrenal issues. So my kidneys aren't exactly super efficient. I turned to vaping because it was the lesser of 2 evils. Quitting cigarettes are a horror for me. Anologs reduce stress, and my "stress hormone" (cortisol) is sometimes deficient. In the long run, of course I know quitting would be good for my health issues. Now I realize this may not be something healthful for me. So keep in mind to those of you who have symptoms from PG may have pre-existing health issues that they don't realize that make PG (or VG perhaps) bad for them.

 

[Monkeylurv]

Just wanted to add the baking soda is not a cure for severe lactic acidosis. It has to be infused in that case. Full blown LA is a medical/hospital emergency.

 

[LittleOralFix]

one plant may be using crushed up baby fetus' as a filler for all we know.

Oh don't worry, your already getting that in your FDA approved vaccinations!

Trully though, contamination and long term effects are a worry. Without support for the new industry though, no one will be willing to put forth the needed testing and studies the electronic cigarette will go the way of the electric car did.

 

[jbbishop]

Interesting experience with the baking soda. When it started happening to me I thought about trying baking soda but I did not believe that my problem was with acidosis which by definition would require a lot of acidity in my system needing to be neutralized, so I didn't try it.

I am in perfect agreement with you on how this builds up in your system after a couple of days and lingers for hours even if you vape less and less.

See my latest post here on my experience with these problems and other unusual symptoms/issues:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...63-feeling-strange-major-panic-attacks-2.html