How to survive the ban (a guide)

[patkin]

Is a car a luxury or a necessity? They put a luxury tax on tires because you have to have them on a car to actually use it. However, they don't tax all rubber products. I expect to see something similar with nic. There will be "medical" purposes which will include the patch but juice will be taxed as a luxury or carry the same tax smoking products do. This is the government. They do what they want. We don't live in a democracy. I also expect to see a regulation on strenght of nic as well as perhaps colorants to identify same for enforcement. I expect them to either ban or tax all the products being manufactured in China which would cover hardware. Regulations on what's left won't be sold along with juice at the same place much as your optemitrist can't be affiliated with eye-wear sales. USA and other countries need to start producing everything China does now.. ie: cartomizers, tanks, etc. I'm shopping for a mechanical now but those worry me.

 

[Bosco]

Which harkens back to the time of the Prohibition and bathtub gin that straight up killed people.

Absolutely - I bet if nic liquid were to be banned we would have people die both from trying to extract nic (or more likely in the handling of already extracted nic because you have to be pretty clever to extract enough nic to kill yourself) and from tainted imported nic.

Fingers crossed for this not to happen!

 

[zapped]

They will tax the hell out of nicotine and possibly delivery devices. This way they make up for lost taxes. I wonder if they could make pg and vg only available with a permit.

They dont have to tax it at all. They can make the fees and the regulations concerning the manufacture of e-liquid so stringent and expensive that only a bare handful of vendors can comply.

Kind of like what they do with legal moonshine distilleries in the U.S. Its a $300,000 dollar application fee that doesnt guarantee approval.

 

[meli.]

Forgive me for using the word taxed, stating permits on VG/ PG could be enforced is just as ludicrous.
Personally I do not subscribe to the theory that we will be taxed to kingdom come, or banned all the way to China.

The government doesn't actually want to look a laughing stock all the time.
The FDA have set a process in motion, one in which there is a fair amount of negotiation to still take place.
They are not going to come out with a final decision anytime soon. They probably postpone and continue deliberations and probably open the floor to more consultation. That's the normal way.

Hope for the best expect the worst and be willing to compromise.

 

[Porrn-Hair]

I'm gonna buy me some Nicoderm Gum, Chew it up...
Alan
& Spit the juice in my pyrex tank & Vape It!

Maybe even soak a Nicotine Patch in it...

 

[Tanti]

Surprisingly, this is very easy and I don't know why everyone is panicking.

1. SS mouthpiece - get a few, these will last
2. RBA - all metal w/ metal tank, will last. rebuild with legal materials.
3. Mod - mechanical kicked (expensive but some can seemingly be heirloom quality)
4. Juice - all the ingredients are readily availible, you could probably go to a supermarket and a pharmacy at a minimum and make something
5. AW batteries for MM - will not be banned

This poses for a better vape for some and will actually save everyone money in the long run anyways.

There, we survive the ban!

the only problem there is you forgot the nicotine, if they were to regulate nicotine where are you going to get it?

 

[Tanti]

Let me say this slowly,

They
can't
ban
nicotine.

Do you seriously think they're going to ban cigarettes and pipe tobacco and cigars and dip and snuff and..... seriously?

They cant ban it but they can regulate buying liquid nicotine, in the form of permits to buy or how much you can buy or what mg/ml you can buy.

 

[gthompson]

They cant ban it but they can regulate buying liquid nicotine, in the form of permits to buy or how much you can buy or what mg/ml you can buy.

Again, that is regulating, not banning.

 

[Tanti]

At most they could regulate the sale of liquid nicotine. You could still buy e-cigs, still get e-juice without nicotine, etc.
They can'd ban the flavorings. they can't ban VG/PG, they can't ban batteries or atomizers. Much like Boiler said.

NO, NO they cant ban VG/PG they are used in so many products, beauty,medical, food, and so on.
It will come in the form of regulations, permits and the feds will tax whatever they can.

When you sell alcohal to the general public what do you need to have to do that, a license that cost alot of money to get. The could do the same thing with nicotine.

 

[kewlceo]

I keep hearing about higher taxes whenever this topic comes up, but taxation really has nothing to do with this thread. The FDA has no power to impose taxes, so instead of borrowing problems I think we should focus on the near future instead. IMHO, it will be the larger outfits like Blu, and everyone else manufacturing e-cigs with cartridges containing nicotine, that will be most affected.

The e-cig as a "delivery device" is safer than a syringe, which is readily available (and even provided freely) to ...... addicts. As has been mentioned by gthompson and others, the APVs, batteries, and chargers are on safe ground. As for the chemical side of things, PG, and VG are inert dilutants that will continue to be available everywhere they are now.

Liquid nicotine is readily available at the moment in strengths up to 100mg (10% nicotine volume mixed with PG, VG, or a combination of the two). Some vendors require applications be filled out when supplying strengths exceeding 10% nicotine volume, and impose a Hazmat charge for shipping it.

Nicotine falls under the FDA's umbrella because it is generally extracted from tobacco. The FDA can do a lot to make things inconvenient for those working with nicotine, but it's a two-edge sword since the rules would have to apply to the tobacco industry as well.

The other e-liquid ingredients that may be threatened could include tobacco extract, which is used in the best-tasting tobacco flavors of e-liquid. Alcohol is often used by e-liquid manufacturers as well. These items along with the liquid nicotine would provide obvious targets for the FDA.

 

[Judge Dredd]

If Nicotine becomes regulated in a manner that is unsuitable for the ecig industry, I'm confident some scientist(s) will come up with an alternative to Nicotine that still satisfies the Nicotine craving.

 

[Tanti]

Again, that is regulating, not banning.

lol Sorry agreeing with you! To much panic here and some crazy ideas.
Having worked in a pharmacy for 21 years I saw what FDA does and how they regulate.
And how they can stall getting a product approved for sale.
There are a few avenues they can take with e-cigs but I believe nicotine regulations will be the first direct way they will choose. I dont think they will even consern them selves over the hardware.
Nicotine have been over the counter now for quite a few years, in the patches and so on but they are regulated, on how much nicotine they can have, strict information guides and a strict standard. I understand they are looking at putting e-cig in the same catigory as tobacco but not with analogs because of the court judgement. So their big choice will be regulating how you get your nicotine from e-cigs. They could also only let e-cigs that are pre-packed pre-filled and sold by registered companys. They would have to make these within a standard the set. Since BT bought Blu they will be right on top. Really sorry to say FDA could go alot of ways with this, it all depends on how willing they are and how far they want to take this and how much pressure they are under.

 

[akatina]

lol Sorry agreeing with you! To much panic here and some crazy ideas.
Having worked in a pharmacy for 21 years I saw what FDA does and how they regulate.
And how they can stall getting a product approved for sale.
There are a few avenues they can take with e-cigs but I believe nicotine regulations will be the first direct way they will choose. I dont think they will even consern them selves over the hardware.
Nicotine have been over the counter now for quite a few years, in the patches and so on but they are regulated, on how much nicotine they can have, strict information guides and a strict standard. I understand they are looking at putting e-cig in the same catigory as tobacco but not with analogs because of the court judgement. So their big choice will be regulating how you get your nicotine from e-cigs. They could also only let e-cigs that are pre-packed pre-filled and sold by registered companys. They would have to make these within a standard the set. Since BT bought Blu they will be right on top. Really sorry to say FDA could go alot of ways with this, it all depends on how willing they are and how far they want to take this and how much pressure they are under.

I agree to a point. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to eventually see nothing but unflavored prefilled cartos at a max strength of 24mg (since that's all matchy-matchy with the 24mg patches). And those cartos will come with instructions on only using X many a day, or so many puffs an hour, or whatever.

Nic patches come with a lot of instructions and warnings to use 1 at a time. Nothing stops anyone from using more than 1. I'd bet good money it happens. I'm sure people chew more gum than advised, and use more lozenges than advised too. If all that is made available are unflavored, pre-filled cartos, somebody somewhere will figure out how to make vapeable juice from it.

 

[Tanti]

Having that the court order didnt let them make them as a drug delivery system will keep e-cigs away from the patches and all the other drug delivery systems out there for smoking cessation.
It seems to me the way the court judgement came down to make them as a tobacco product, puts them in with chewing tobacco and that kind of thing. They regulated thin cigars so they cant have fruit and candy flavors, so oOMG the children dont start using them. As if adults dont like sweet flavors once they become an adult. I can see them doing the same thing with e-juice. Cause OMG the children will want to use them. I didnt start smoking analogs because there were fancy flavors. The people out there use the children to get what they want ban or regulated all the time. Regulating nicotine and flavors im thinking will be on the top of the list, then everything else will fall into place from there. How they will be sold, where and by who.

 

[mikejm]

Knowing the US governments history on tobacco, they'll either ban it or mandate that it be put into infant formula.

Based on the FDA's track record so far don't expect a sane outcome.

 

[Jman8]

If they do ban eCigs, making them illegal, moderators here are going to have to do a lot of editing of posts.

 

[mikejm]

If they do ban eCigs, making them illegal, moderators here are going to have to do a lot of editing of posts.

And nobody would notice if they did.

 

[Robino1]

If they do ban eCigs, making them illegal, moderators here are going to have to do a lot of editing of posts.

This forum is UK based. What happens here in the US won't affect the forum.

 

[DC2]

How will they justify it? If they raise taxes on nicotine liquid as in e-liquid, they have to raise taxes on All the nicotine replacement therapies currently available and especially those which contain or use nicotine liquid. For me it's that simple.

However, they will have a tough time demonstrating a hike in taxes to those who advocate the use of conventional nicotine replacement therapies and tobacco harm reduction. One simply cannot raise the cost on an ingredient and forgo the cost on the same ingredient used in a different method which essentially shares the same goal.

Unfortunately, no.

There are no taxes on NRT products because they are not tobacco products.
They are drug delivery devices.

Electronic cigarettes are not NRT products (thank God) and never will be thanks to a court decision.
But once they are declared tobacco products, the door is wide open for taxation.

Thankfully, it will take an act of Congress to put those taxes in place, because the FDA doesn't have the power to do so.

That doesn't stop states, cities, counties, or municipalities from doing so, but nothing is stopping them now either.
But being officially declared a tobacco product, once again, just opens the door really wide.


Nicotine strength can most certainly be limited to anything other than zero.
And flavors can most certainly be removed.

These things alone can make electronic cigarettes nearly useless for most people looking to quit smoking.

Nicotine liquid can most certainly be regulated in ways that will screw us over.
Just look at the EU Tobacco Product Directive for the blueprint.

All I can say is get ready to come together and be heard when the proposed FDA regulations hit the ground.

 

[xanderxman]

I am not worried about the flavorings being removed. You can buy flavorings from several websites. My current juice vendor even offers their custom flavors in flavoring bottles to add to unflavored PG/VG nicotine liquid. So I wouldn't even miss out on the flavors I currently love.

I see a limit in nic strength being the obvious target. If the FDA limits the nic in juice to some stupidly low level, like 4mg, then e-cigs are basically dead as far as helping people quit smoking. Not enough nicotine to help a current smoker kick the habit.