I'm an ANTZ, you're an ANTZ, kiss me!

[Jay-dub]

Ok. How am I supposed to address this subject without citing examples? It's an honest question without any insinuations. Our posts are deleted and the posts that I used to support the OP's premise have been modified. How can I support my claim that there's a problem if everything is deleted or modified after the fact?

 

[sonicdsl]

Try this format...

When someone does <action>
It makes me feel <feeling>
I think it would be better if they <action>.

*Without snarkiness, of course!*

OR,

I think some people contribute thusly:
I think it causes/or is caused by this:
I prefer this:
Because of this:

*Again without snarkiness*

Hope this helps.

 

[Mutescream]

Ok. How am I supposed to address this subject without citing examples? It's an honest question without any insinuations. Our posts are deleted and the posts that I used to support the OP's premise have been modified. How can I support my claim that there's a problem if everything is deleted or modified after the fact?

It's a conundrum, to be sure (and sucks for all involved, including moderators). Anyone that has ever moderated a forum somewhere knows what a PITA it is to have to come in and clean up a thread. If you have never had to do it, trust me that it truly just all around blows. From the sheer amount of time it generally takes, to dealing with message traffic from po'd posters.

It also sucks to have the entire convo disrupted. It does however beat the convo being gone, or stopped entirely.
This is a hot button topic, so tempers are going to be prone to flare. It's just how it is. The key is simply not get angry and get a feel for what mods will delete and what they will let fly.

If a post looks like it's only point is to piss people off, it's got a short lifespan and prob isn't worth taking the time to quote.

 

[dr g]

By saying something like, "We need to eliminate tobacco from the face of the Earth and substitute vaping," the first part IS something an ANTZ would say. That doesn't mean the vaper saying it IS an ANTZ, but they may want to reconsider that they are inadvertently supporting the ANTZ agenda, because they don't apparently realize that once tobacco is eliminated, the ANTZ won't stop there.

I have a bit of a problem with this example and synthesis. The part that makes the ANTZ in this example is not the first part, but that there is no second part. Elimination of the use of tobacco is the basis for many harm reduction approaches. This in no way supports the ANTZ agenda, or perhaps more to the point it doesn't matter how it relates to the ANTZ agenda, because they will have that agenda no matter whether we oppose what they say or have our own nuanced ideas.

 

[AndriaD]

The only real reason I'm reading this at all is that I *do* care what those anti-everything people are up to, and at first, there was some very stimulating give-and-take on the subject. But when it devolved to "yeah but you started it", I left. Boring. Who cares who started what. Rodney King made an excellent point: why can't we all just get along? Why does all this conversation have to be adversarial? It's only my opinion, of course, but it seems to me that those of us who vape have a big enough fight on our hands, without fighting each other over who said what to whom and why. *sigh* We really need to be *pulling together" against those want to persecute us legally and financially, rather than letting our differences divide us -- trust me, that is exactly what *they* want!


Andria

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

Sometimes feel as if no has ever seen Family Guy or South Park or Politically Incorrect. That is why I am never serious around here, except in PMs, or in person. People really do forget this is all a TV show that you type to and it types back.

And what the hell is wrong with hating things and people? "Quit hating on this, dude." I hate that crap. I hate all kinds of things and people. If a person has no strong feelings about anything there is simply no edge to him. Might as well eat a steady diet of white rice.

 

[Mutescream]

No one without a mask really likes a mirror.

You are neglecting the narcissist here. They adore the mirror the most, because it gives them what they want.

 

[Credo]

Disclaimer: This is a rant... It will not sit well with a bunch of people and I'll be called a troll for stirring this pot. So put a bag of popcorn in the microwave, here we go.

I am tired of folks slinging out the ANTZ gun every single time that someone says something that they don't agree with. Classic example:

"I think that vaping in a, b or c location shouldn't be allowed for x, y or z reason."

As soon as someone says something like that, the anti-ANTZ Gestapo very rapidly puts to an end any kind of intelligent conversation that may or may not arise by calling out the guy or girl who stated his or her opinion as a vile, disgusting, stupid, death-mongering ANTZ.

When opinions differs, I think it's great, it engages people in a stimulating conversation. It forces both parties to think there arguments through, maybe someone will change their opinion or maybe it will reinforce it. And THIS IS A GOOD THING!!!

But when people take the lame and easy exit ANTZ card, it marks the end of the conversation and the beginning of name calling which is anything but constructive.

Sure they are ANTZ out there, but not THAT many on this forum.

End rant happy valentines day!

Same goes for political parties!
You can't say anything these days that isn't somehow considered a 'talking point' of one party or the other...
Someone will inevitably stamp one of the following labels upon your forehead in an attempt to distract from the actual issues and possible solutions:
.......
SocioCrat
Repuke
TeaBagger
TeaTard

 

[ScottP]

Same goes for political parties!
You can't say anything these days that isn't somehow considered a 'talking point' of one party or the other...
Someone will inevitably stamp one of the following labels upon your forehead in an attempt to distract from the actual issues and possible solutions:
.......
SocioCrat
Repuke
TeaBagger
TeaTard

I have no issue with people being called a
Democrat
Liberal
Progressive
Republican
Conservative
Member of the Tea Party

However, when anyone starts .......izing those words, I realize they are idiots with the mind of a 5 yr old. They may as well have said "oooh you have cooties".

 

[Mutescream]

And what the hell is wrong with hating things and people? I hate that crap. I hate all kinds of things and people. If a person has no strong feelings about anything there is simply no edge to him. Might as well eat a steady diet of white rice.

Think about it rationally for a moment. Do you genuinely hate the person, or do you hate the stuff they do? If they stopped doing the things they do, that bring your ire, would you stop having issue with them?

I don't waste my time hating people, but I do detest a rather extensive list of behaviors. If a person collects enough behaviors from that list, I'll either mock or ignore them, based on the dictates of decorum.

They say "don't hate the player, hate the game", and there is a nugget of truth in that. I tend to detest the fact the behavior (and the ill conceived notion to adopt it) itself is there, and outside of that might actually enjoy that person's company.

May you be followed by a Klingon on rollerblades juggling tribbles for the rest of the day.

 

[ScottP]

I will say that there is one .......ized word that I do condone. "Celebutard". There is no other word in the English language that can accurately describe the likes of Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton, Snooki, or anyone with the last name Kardashian.

 

[CKCalmer]

I think I'd rather have bible-toters on my front porch at 8am than have to deal with the anti-smokers in any fashion.

I took care of that problem some 15 years back. Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door (what I considered) inappropriately early one morning. I had just gotten out of the shower, and was wearing a towel. I was miffed that someone was knocking before I had even gotten ready for the day, so I answered the door just as I was. They hesitated, then proceeded into their "intro" speech. When they paused again, I said, "I was just taking a bath. Come get in the tub with me and we'll talk about it!"

Now, I don't know if Jehovah's Witnesses have a very efficient communications network in their organization, but I haven't encountered another one - not one - in the years since. And I've even moved a few times in that period. Maybe they were keeping track?

(I got the "invite them into your bath tub" idea from a comedian I heard around the same time. Carrot Top, perhaps?)

When more research has been done on the actual effects of actual 2nd hand vaping, then we'll know a lot more, but until then, I think caution is wise. That doesn't mean treating vapers the same EXACT way as smokers, but it does mean being aware that potential problems *might* result, and it would be advisable to be very observant.

That's one of the most perceptive arguments I've heard on the matter, and it has changed my opinion to (what I think is) a more objective one. Thank you!

 

[AndriaD]

I took care of that problem some 15 years back. Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door (what I considered) inappropriately early one morning. I had just gotten out of the shower, and was wearing a towel. I was miffed that someone was knocking before I had even gotten ready for the day, so I answered the door just as I was. They hesitated, then proceeded into their "intro" speech. When they paused again, I said, "I was just taking a bath. Come get in the tub with me and we'll talk about it!"

Now, I don't know if Jehovah's Witnesses have a very efficient communications network in their organization, but I haven't encountered another one - not one - in the years since. And I've even moved a few times in that period. Maybe they were keeping track?

(I got the "invite them into your bath tub" idea from a comedian I heard around the same time. Carrot Top, perhaps?)


That's one of the most perceptive arguments I've heard on the matter, and it has changed my opinion to (what I think is) a more objective one. Thank you!

Thank you, I'm glad I finally got thru to *someone*. I can't tell if some of the people around here just like to mess with anyone who states any opinion on anything, or if they genuinely think that vaping ought to be allowed everywhere at all times. I have truly hated giving up the freedom to smoke in most if not all places, but I have observed 2nd-hand smoke damage on my own son, and to some extent even my husband, and I realize that people with breathing problems or allergies don't have the luxury of choice -- smokers or vapers do, and that is why they must yield. I feel like vaping is indeed relatively harmless; I did it at my mom's all day today, and she has COPD and almost as keen a sense of smell as I do, and she had nothing bad to say about the vaping -- she's almost as pleased as I am that I've finally found a way to quit smoking. But it's impossible to know the full effects of *anything* until long-term detailed observation and analysis is carried out -- look how long it took them to figure out smoking was bad for you! Or drinking! Or any other damn thing! Thalidomide ring any bells??? I'm sure those mothers were NOT told, 'take this for nausea, and also to deform your child.' No, I'm sure they were told "this is safe, don't worry." Famous last words.

I will, however, fight any of those vested interests that are seeking to discredit if not outright ban vaping. That is plain mercenary, and not worthy of the human race, to deny smokers this chance at freedom, at living a little longer!

Andria

 

[dr g]

But it's impossible to know the full effects of *anything* until long-term detailed observation and analysis is carried out -- look how long it took them to figure out smoking was bad for you!

IMO this view needs to be really needs to be discarded by anyone interested in preserving the right to vape. This is a key argument used by those who would ban, and it's insidious because it is used to ignore all the science so far. Because all the science is so strongly in favor of vaping, the best they can hope for is to try to get people to ignore it while getting a ban in place, which will be very hard to get rid of later.

But the thing is, things have changed. The prevalence of and access to real scientific testing on any given product is night and day different from now and when smoking was "not known to be bad for you." So for a product to stand up to scientific scrutiny so well as vaping has, in this day and age, really eliminates any comparison to the situation smoking faced.

In the end, we ourselves can't be promoting certain views that in and of themselves undermine our efforts. Not every view is like that, but this one absolutely is.

 

[AndriaD]

IMO this view needs to be really needs to be discarded by anyone interested in preserving the right to vape. This is a key argument used by those who would ban, and it's insidious because it is used to ignore all the science so far. Because all the science is so strongly in favor of vaping, the best they can hope for is to try to get people to ignore it while getting a ban in place, which will be very hard to get rid of later.

But the thing is, things have changed. The prevalence of and access to real scientific testing on any given product is night and day different from now and when smoking was "not known to be bad for you." So for a product to stand up to scientific scrutiny so well as vaping has, in this day and age, really eliminates any comparison to the situation smoking faced.

In the end, we ourselves can't be promoting certain views that in and of themselves undermine our efforts. Not every view is like that, but this one absolutely is.

Well, you're certainly welcome to your own opinion, and so far in this country, still legally in the right to voice it. I was going to address your post point by point, but what's the use? IMO, anyone who disregards the value of "caution" -- in ANY context, not just this one -- is not worth arguing with, as they are not capable of rational thought.

Andria

 

[Tinkiegrrl]

What I don't understand is why compromise appears to be a dirty word to a lot of people on either side of this debate, and in fact, in most hot button issue debates in this country. I think as vapers, we can all agree on at least two parts in this debate. We don't want vaping to be as restricted as cigarettes are based on studies done showing that it's many times safer then cigarettes, and that we don't want the ecig industry handed over to Big Tobacco on a silver platter. In light of the very real possibility that both those things will come to pass, we shouldn't be telling those who think vaping sub ohm clouds in a packed subway isn't acceptable that they just aren't good enough to be on our side. Majority for the most part, rules the country. Why are some people here more concerned with weeding out the less extreme then they seem to be on fighting for the right to keep vaping? We aren't going to agree on every small point. We shouldn't have to. We certainly shouldn't have to suddenly believe that smoking traditional cigarettes and second hand smoke isn't dangerous to the smoker and to those around them in enclosed spaces. We shouldn't all have to be libertarian or republican or democrat. We are vapers, we all obviously want to keep vaping, and in this battle we're already a minority in this country. Why make this club more exclusive then it already is in a country where majority and money already rules for the most part? We've got a big enough battle on our hands.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[EddardinWinter]

What I don't understand is why compromise appears to be a dirty word to a lot of people on either side of this debate, and in fact, in most hot button issue debates in this country. I think as vapers, we can all agree on at least two parts in this debate. We don't want vaping to be as restricted as cigarettes are based on studies done showing that it's many times safer then cigarettes, and that we don't want the ecig industry handed over to Big Tobacco on a silver platter. In light of the very real possibility that both those things will come to pass, we shouldn't be telling those who think vaping sub ohm clouds in a packed subway isn't acceptable that they just aren't good enough to be on our side. Majority for the most part, rules the country. Why are some people here more concerned with weeding out the less extreme then they seem to be on fighting for the right to keep vaping? We aren't going to agree on every small point. We shouldn't have to. We certainly shouldn't have to suddenly believe that smoking traditional cigarettes and second hand smoke isn't dangerous to the smoker and to those around them in enclosed spaces. We shouldn't all have to be libertarian or republican or democrat. We are vapers, we all obviously want to keep vaping, and in this battle we're already a minority in this country. Why make this club more exclusive then it already is in a country where majority and money already rules for the most part? We've got a big enough battle on our hands.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think we should never, ever compromise our principles.

But we should be able to set aside our differences.

I think we have to accept that there are a million different ways to vape and none of them are "the right way". We also have to accept that as a group we will have differences of culture, politics, and perception. I agree with that part of your sentiment wholeheartedly. We don't have the luxury of making our club exclusive.

 

[Jay-dub]

You know, it's way more simple to me. (now I'm open to a "simpleton attack"). Distilled down - it's in ECF's best interest to get as many eyes on the page as possible. Mod's are enforcing ECF's rules, which are constructed around standards set by Google and ECF's vision of how to maintain it's footprint on the web. If the kind of behavior that's been well established has no significant effect to ECF's numbers or image, there's no need for them to be too concerned. But personally, I will not accept cannibalistic treatment of one and other. I expect to be called out on it just as quick as anyone else.

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

Think about it rationally for a moment. Do you genuinely hate the person, or do you hate the stuff they do?....May you be followed by a Klingon on rollerblades juggling tribbles for the rest of the day.

Absolutely. I am Evil Spock, remember. I hate everybody and turn down all friend requests. But playful persona aside, I don't wish anyone harm, if that is what you mean. I maintain a respect for humanity, I don't start bar fights over whether to use charcoal or propane. Not into torture even for terror suspects, not when you can get any information you want with some blow and a ......, it's quicker, cleaner, and cheaper. I am not this guy, don't ever want to be this guy:



Maybe the trick is to hate things in a loving way. But even that is a double-edged sword. If you hate and call it by name, you are confrontational. If you do not name names you are passive-aggressive. When I think about it, there is no one alive or know personally that I really hate. Suppose I have just lived long enough to structure my life that way.

 

[Luisa]

So a couple of people called him a name he didn't like and he blames CASAA? I have seen a few people on here referred to as ANTZ (not Jay specifically) but when I have seen it happen, the person it was directed at was at the time arguing vehemently FOR one or more key points from the ANTZ manifesto and would not budge or even listen to an opposing viewpoint.

That said too many people are buying into this whole "politically correct" business and are getting their panties in a twist every time they hear something they don't like. They label it "hate speech" or some sort of "ism". Last time I checked, most of us live in a country that guarantees freedom of speech, NOT the freedom to never be offended. Both are mutually exclusive. We can only have one or the other. As for me I choose to keep the freedom of speech. If that means some people will occasionally get offended by someone exercising that right then they need to put on their big boy underwear and deal with it.

Well said!