Don't lie, don't cheat don't steal, go to work every day, pay my taxes, stand up for the guys who get stepped on. You want a full bio? Now you're attacking me personally.
I'm completely lost on this whole calling to the white house/voting thing..
- Thread starter 3ebmike
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
No, I was reading your posts and looking at the quotes, and commenting on them.
I dont know you at all.
So how in the hell do you read that deep into what I posted to determine I have no use for integrity? My comments were intended to show that I initially agreed with you, or how I interpreted your post, that we as vapers cannot come together enough to stand as one when we can't even agree on on issues here. Yes? Our system is so skewed that I believe no change will be affected unless there is a mass movement, I also believe our American people are so interested in their own point of view that standing together to fight these issues will never happen at a national leve,l save the few here that are actually informed.
If I stepped on your toes I apologize, but I won't back down or be told what my value system is based on opinion.
No toes stepped on at all. Don't appollogize, there's no need at all.
I recognize your opinion, and position.
I too think people aren't organized, and won't be until they start thinking for themselves.
We have everything in place to to things right.
The problem with government is that no one does the right thing, and voters don't hold them accountable.
Congress has one job and they haven't done it in decades.... And they still have jobs.
And I wish there was a system in place to actually hold them accountable without spending large amounts of taxpayer dollars on inquisitions that lead to even more long and drawn out legal system battles.
Are we as vapers even remotely a majority? Enough to win a legal and fair vote? Will we ever get the chances of the media reporting fairly so those who aren't in the know can actually get enough information to make an informed decision and vote?
I enjoy my rights as an American, add long as my choices don't actually have negative effects on others I believe I have the right to do as I chose without fighting my government.
Have a good weekend BN.
Lol
We can start by getting rid of career politicians. They should go get a job.
That'll save us billions.
Southern California is awesome this time of year.
Looks like great fishing.Lol
We can start by getting rid of career politicians. They should go get a job.
That'll save us billions.
Southern California is awesome this time of year.
Or running a motorcycle flat out.
This is a very complex subject with many twist and turns so it is difficult to condense.
First off, it is not a bill we are talking about. The Tobacco Control act of 2009 gave regulatory authority over some tobacco products to the FDA as in cigarettes, roll your own tobacco, and smokeless tobacco, but it also allowed the FDA to deem other tobacco products to bring them under their control.
The FDA has been working on bringing other products under their control for some years, and they include pipe tobacco, cigars, and electronic cigarettes. It is a long regulatory process that has to be gone through for the deeming to happen, but the FDA is now on the finale step of this. The finale regulation has now been sent to the white house as it has to go through their budget bureaucrats to see if it will have to much of a negative impact on the economy (I didn't make up these rules). Once it passes that it will be the law.
So the question is, what is in the deeming regulation?????? it's a secret..... not kidding..... it's secret until the FDA issues it. Okay, not quite a secret as there is a document that has been leaked that many feel is legitimate that spells out what the deeming will do...... and it is not at all good. As Bill Godshall (a long time advocate for tobacco harm reduction) has said, the deeming will wipe out 99.9% of everything on the market. I have read the original proposed regulation and the leaked document, and what Bill says may be an underestimate. It may be a clean sweep. I won't get into the whys of how it would do this as it gets very complex very quickly. It has to do with grandfather dates, and the impossibility of getting a new tobacco product approved by all but the largest players (and even that is doubtful) and just a huge web of bureaucracy the Tobacco Control Act of 2009 has created.
You can stock up if that's what you are inclined to do, but while you are doing that you may want to do something to fight it. First off is join CASAA. Go to their web page and find out what you can do to fight this. Joining is free and you will get calls to action via email.
http://www.casaa.org
Then call, write, email, you congressperson and ask them to support HR 2058. This bill would move the grandfather date for the deeming to the date the deeming is issued. As of now the grandfather date is February 25. 2007 which would wipe out the industry.
Last edited:
Spent the morning running a 1968 Baja VW Bug flat out.
It was awesome.
And to stay on topic...I had the ECF Disrupter with an Origen V2 dripper, at .36ohms and. 42watts ...exercising my freedoms on such a glorious California day.
'Murica.
Vape on.
Current project:
As a consumer of vaping products, I now look at both side of the coin. If not too restrictive, some regulations may benefit consumers. If the FDA trolls seem careless about our heath, I am not convince that the actual manufacturers of vapor products care any better. For instance, the nickel coil issue was raised by an unknown guy in Youtube and triggered a wave of comments and concerns. The manufacturers should have seen that coming because it's obvious. The alarmists broth nickel toxicity facts that anyone can find on the web and the pro-vape products (If I may) are deconstructing their arguments by bringing the physico-chemical property of Nickel, which make sense indeed. Except that when I read articles such as "ecig are safer than my pasta" (or something like that) I am getting a bit skeptical about their seriousness... Where does it leave us? As I am vaping with Ni200 coils, I believe it's safe but my mind is not at peace and I am starting to think about Ti coils, which bring other issues on its own. Alarmist nor manufacturers haven't publish the simple, cheap and fast Gas Chromatography (GC) and Mass Spectroscopy (MS) analysis that would prove or disprove the theory. Both pro-vapes and alarmists might have ran the assays but none are speaking up, either because they didn't find any or did find some in our vape, respectively.Tackling down these issues is the responsibility of manufacturers! Because more and more people are vaping, it is critical to implement quality standards, for our sake and the one of future vapers as long as these standards do not interfere with our freedom. Vaping is replacing smoking in our habits, not only because it's safer but also because it's more enjoyable. With ~50 millions smokers in the US, or 50 million potential vapers, the stakes are high so should be the standards.
Last edited:
i'm sure you already did your research but i'll just mention it again for comfort
any metal when heated is hazardous, but only when its under very high temps. we cook our foods on metal pans ( copper, aluminum, iron, etc) and many of them, plated in different metals.. but again, it's safe because we simply cooking the food at low temperature. same thing applies to ecigs.. i don't think the coils in a ecig gets hot enough to the point it's harmful,the coil would have to be almost molten.. as long as there is liquid on the coil the coil will never get hot enough to be harmful..
i'm sure you already did your research but i'll just mention it again for comfort
any metal when heated is hazardous, but only when its under very high temps. we cook our foods on metal pans ( copper, aluminum, iron, etc) and many of them, plated in different metals.. but again, it's safe because we simply cooking the food at low temperature. same thing applies to ecigs.. i don't think the coils in a ecig gets hot enough to the point it's harmful,the coil would have to be almost molten.. as long as there is liquid on the coil the coil will never get hot enough to be harmful..
I am actually using Nickel coils right now with a TC device. The melting temp of Nickel is unreachable (2,651°F, 1,455°C), and to decrease these temperatures, high concentrations of CO (carbon monoxide) are required, gas that is not even found in our vapor. TC is better for me because with Kanthal coils, my tank is always hot, no burn hits, but hot tank. This is not happening with TC and I found more consistency in flavor and vapor production. I used the Ni200 controversy as an example to illustrate that manufacturers should address these type of issues experimentally for the sake of consumers and preventing thereby alarmists to raise unfounded claim over the internet. It's annoying... As I said, in the case of Ni200, GC/MS assay would have closed the debate before it even started. None of these were published by manufacturers, but the debate is rather entertained with sometime silly arguments from both sides. From my perception, comparing vaping to eating or even smoking doesn't help and even makes the misconception worse. I don't vape like I use to smoke nor like I am eating because consumption frequencies, and products are different. Manufacturers need to establish high health quality standards because vaping is reaching more and more people. Some companies already do with eliquids and base ingredients, giving them noticeable selling advantages. The FDA is stepping in now trying to impose overboard and unfair rules which will eventually interfere with our freedom. The base of many of their claims are simply false. UK is a bad example where vaping products may be prohibited as early as next year as I heard. France recently confiscated mislabeled products but I doubt that France will try to banish vaping products all together.
I feel that @Stubby responded in the KISS way that makes most sense. I would just add:
- the deeming of itself won't do much other than ban certain types of marketing and say some things / most things that vapers use are now considered tobacco products
- so the negative effects from this started around 1950 when anti-tobacco activists sought to change the playing field on all tobacco products going after the most popular one, smokes. To not understand how much that is impacting the current regulations is to not really understand what is actually occurring.
- states that fully agree with zealous regulations against tobacco products, once FDA proposal deems eCigs a tobacco product, will then probably make all sorts of rules that govern how everyone in that state (mostly distributors) need to handle such products. Many states already have, but because FDA hasn't done their job, those states appear ridiculously zealous. Once FDA work is done, in deeming, they will appear less ridiculous, though still zealous.
- the ban on products is de-facto. No product will be outright banned, and is not what anyone means when they talk about a ban. They mean it will be cost prohibitive to get that product to be approved by the FDA as a legal tobacco product. The estimated cost for approval is hundreds of thousands of dollars. So say you like eLiquid flavor of "mint chocolate chip" and also like "tobacco caramel." If a vendor you know carries both flavors, then for them to get these approved by the FDA would cost them around $700,000. Imagine if you wanted to get into the business of distributing, do you think your chances of success would be good knowing that is cost you have to plan for, AND that even after doing all other things it takes to set up business, FDA might reject your application? Plus, there's the unknown notion of whether you have to pay additional money if you vary anything in the same exact flavored eLiquid (i.e. 50/50 PG-VG and 70/30 PG-VG could cost $700,000 for approval).
- stocking up makes most sense right now if you are not one who would want to go to underground market and buy from those who have also stocked up with intent to sell. Those sellers (and all users) will be using products that are probably not approved by FDA, but as it would be very hard for state or federal enforcement to find about this, then it would be way to bypass the de-facto ban.
Interesting thread, lots of tangents.
The way I understood it, the CTA was to urge legislators to get behind HR 2058, which changes the grandfather date. Honestly I see the way the deeming regs are currently written as an ex post facto type of situarion, this bill would just correct that.
This is vital to preserve (vape)life as we know it now.
The way I understood it, the CTA was to urge legislators to get behind HR 2058, which changes the grandfather date. Honestly I see the way the deeming regs are currently written as an ex post facto type of situarion, this bill would just correct that.
This is vital to preserve (vape)life as we know it now.
Yes, it is an ex post facto de facto ban (wrap your head around that). The current assumed grandfather date is February 15, 2007. Anything not on the market before that date would have to go through a substantial equivalency process or a new tobacco product process. HR 2058 would move the grandfather date to whenever the FDA issues the deeming (hasn't happened yet but is expected soon).
Jman8, I think perhaps you are underestimating the cost of bringing a product to the market. You are assuming substantial equivalency, but with a grandfather date as is manufactures would have to go through a new tobacco product process (there was little to nothing on the market before the grandfather date so nothing to be substantially equivalent to). The estimated cost of going through the new tobacco product process is 2 to 10 million.
Moving the grandfather date is the single biggest issue right now for vapers. The FDA is not listening to the science regarding ecigs and there is no reason to expect that they will do so in the near future. At least until it suits them to do so.
Changing the grandfather date will preserve the massive amount of innovation that has occurred in the last eight years, all for the better, and will provide a basis for meeting the test of 'substantial equivalency' for innovators and manufacturers moving forward.
The deeming process is essentially a means of setting the playing field and the rules of the 'game', and it's currently skewed heavily in favor of future big gov taxation and elimination of anyone from the vaping industry who is not heavily aligned with the pharma or tobacco industries. The deeming itself won't immediately change anything, but they wouldn't be good bureaucrats if they didn't work to get their noses into the tent, and they're hoping we aren't paying attention. This is why we have the CTA's, and why it's important be heard.
Changing the grandfather date will preserve the massive amount of innovation that has occurred in the last eight years, all for the better, and will provide a basis for meeting the test of 'substantial equivalency' for innovators and manufacturers moving forward.
The deeming process is essentially a means of setting the playing field and the rules of the 'game', and it's currently skewed heavily in favor of future big gov taxation and elimination of anyone from the vaping industry who is not heavily aligned with the pharma or tobacco industries. The deeming itself won't immediately change anything, but they wouldn't be good bureaucrats if they didn't work to get their noses into the tent, and they're hoping we aren't paying attention. This is why we have the CTA's, and why it's important be heard.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
