In defense of JUUL from a 10+ year ECF vet and vapor.. (semi-rant)

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zoiDman

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No, that's not correct. IIRC, it worked out to $2780 per liter of 100 mg base, with would be $2.78 per ml of 100 mg base. A single juul pod contains 0.7 ml of 59 mg/ml, so the tax on a single juul pod would be something like 42 cents.

Now I've not been keeping up like I was, but I thought I heard that the current tax proposal is roughly double what it was previously, which would make the tax on a single juul pod close to $1.00.

The Last I heard, the Basis was being pegged at roughly $0.055/1mg. So that 0.7ml @ 59mg/ml Juul Cart would have a Federal Tax on it of $2.27.

And that Sounds about right. Because those who Want this Tax want to Peg e-Cigarette Costs at or Slightly Above what a PAD Smoker Pays everyday.

Only they Want a Bigger Portion to be in Taxes. And Not in BT Profits.

BTW - That $0.055 is just the Federal Tax. States are also going to want their Slice of the Pie also.

https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/L808.pdf

New California Vape Taxes Will Put the Squeeze on Synthetic Nicotine.

I met a girl who sang the blues
And I asked her for some happy news
But she just smiled and turned away
So I went down to the sacred store
Where I'd heard the music years before
But the man there, said the music, wouldn't play
 
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GeorgeS

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    I started with BLU: low output volume, to low battery life, tasted good, very (to!) expensive.

    Next up was a EMOD type device: better output volume, low battery life, refillable cartimizers, tasted good, however between the 1.2ml of juice and low battery life I soon upgraded.

    Modern MOD+RTA, adjustable output volume, good battery life, upto 5ml 'tank' or 10ml on Squanker, tasted good, dirt cheap if you DIY everything.

    Something like the above is what I use with 50mg nic salts with my coffee in the morning. I like the "nic buzz". I gave 30ml of 100mg nic salts to a friend that regularly vapes at ~24mg and he says the salts gave him a buzz as well.

    Ok, sorry back on topic: when the pod mods came out I had already moved on from expensive low; volume, capacity, battery life devices. I can see how they might be easy to use for those that don't like to 'fiddle' or DIY. If smokers can tolerate the limited 'flavor' selection of these devices they can be a viable alternative to smoking.


    g.
     

    Myrany

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    Thinking back to my years as what I called being a permanent smoking quitter. Meaning I was constantly trying to find a way to quit.

    Even at $2-$5 per pod tax I would probably have tried it. Weather or not it worked is a completely different beast.

    Yes the tax is outrageously high. Yes many will not pay it and will keep on smoking. I'm the odd one that would give it shot anyways.

    Now the fact that the only thing that is legally marketed is the Vuse might well have been a bigger problem for me. I don't have a good history with cigalikes and I suspect other smokers won't do well with them either.
     

    DaveOno

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    If you agree, great - if not I'd love to know a counter argument (peacefully).

    Love you all! Thanks for helping me get off cigs so long ago.
    to the OP, and to us all.

    This forum has, for the most part, had some great discussions and debates on various topics. And I'm glad I'm part of one of the few "social media platforms" that houses and encourages this type of discourse. Great points being made (I agree with some of them) and as the OP requested, "peacefully". It is refreshing to read through an adult discussion of varying viewpoints without the name-calling, shaming, belittling, and all the other chit that does nothing but pollute the original discussion.

    And also, I thank my fellow ecf'ers for helping me stay quit since 2013.

    And one of our "creeds" has always been, "If it works for you, then it is OK." Whatever gets you to not light up is worth it. Lives saved!

    My only problem with Juul was the marketing, especially to non-smokers, and the high level of nic with no path to lower levels without changing the device. And I'll admit, the Juul device is simple, sexy, and quite effective. Not my cup-o-tea, but to each their own.

    And I can't believe reading a thread "in defense of Juul" would put me in suce a good mood.

    Thank you, all.

    :)
     

    Rossum

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    when the pod mods came out I had already moved on from expensive low; volume, capacity, battery life devices. I can see how they might be easy to use for those that don't like to 'fiddle' or DIY.
    I was curious enough about Juul in the summer of 2015 (not long after they hit the market) that I ordered one, as well as a variety pack of their then-current flavors. I wasn't particularly keen on any of their flavors, or the price of the pods, but was impressed by how effective that tiny device was, and I carried it as a backup when I was out and about for a while.

    If smokers can tolerate the limited 'flavor' selection of these devices they can be a viable alternative to smoking.
    I'm not sure it's a question of "tolerate". I mean, cigarette smokers tolerate a very limited selection of flavors too; a bunch of straight tobacco flavors, as well as a few menthols (in the jurisdictions that haven't banned menthol cigarettes yet). In fact, most smokers buy the exact same kind of cigarettes repeatedly and exclusively; they do not chase "variety" at all. Heck, I used to get downright cranky on those rare occasions when the store where I regularly bought my cigs didn't have my preferred type (which wasn't one of the most popular ones); I'd leave in a huff and drive somewhere else until I found them.

    That said, I think one of the things that made vaping so successful in years past, was the fact that it tasted so good compared to cigarettes. This is what provided a good part of the motivation for people to switch. Do I wanna light up yet another relatively nasty, boring cigarette, or do I wanna puff on one of these delicious-tasting vapes I've got here? These options are now gone, thanks to the FDA. :(
     

    CMD-Ky

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    zoiDman

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    I will be pleased if, one day, some seller of some highly objectionable product (like a lawn mower) just says, "Screw California, complying with that market ain't worth losses in the other forty-nine".

    Unfortunately, CA isn't the only State to have jumped on the Let's Make it Less Appealing to Switch to something Safer than Smoking Tax Train.

    House Bill 249 - Open Vaping Systems (Effective July 1, 2021)

    During the 2021 Legislative Session, KRS 138.140 was amended to modify the taxation of open vaping systems. When the components of an open vaping system are sold separately without the liquid solution, the open vaping system tax rate is not applicable. However, vaping kit sales that include the liquid solution or liquid solution sold separately continues to be subject to the open vaping systems tax rate of fifteen percent (15%).

    ...

    Vapor Products Tax, Licensing, and Electronic Filing Submission

    House Bill (HB) 351 was enacted and established a tax on vapor products. Effective August 1, 2020, the vapor products tax rate on closed vaping systems is $1.50 per cartridge and the rate on open vaping systems is 15% of the actual price at which the distributor sells the product. Taxable items include both nicotine and non-nicotine products as provided in the following definitions.


    Tobacco and Vapor Products Tax - Department of Revenue

    ETA: These Kentucky Excise Taxes are on top of General Sales Tax. So it would be 6% + $1.50 or 6% + 15% respectively.
     
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    UncLeJunkLe

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    Unfortunately, CA isn't the only State to have jumped on the Let's Make it Less Appealing to Switch to something Safer than Smoking Tax Train.

    House Bill 249 - Open Vaping Systems (Effective July 1, 2021)

    During the 2021 Legislative Session, KRS 138.140 was amended to modify the taxation of open vaping systems. When the components of an open vaping system are sold separately without the liquid solution, the open vaping system tax rate is not applicable. However, vaping kit sales that include the liquid solution or liquid solution sold separately continues to be subject to the open vaping systems tax rate of fifteen percent (15%).

    ...

    Vapor Products Tax, Licensing, and Electronic Filing Submission

    House Bill (HB) 351 was enacted and established a tax on vapor products. Effective August 1, 2020, the vapor products tax rate on closed vaping systems is $1.50 per cartridge and the rate on open vaping systems is 15% of the actual price at which the distributor sells the product. Taxable items include both nicotine and non-nicotine products as provided in the following definitions.


    Tobacco and Vapor Products Tax - Department of Revenue

    ETA: These Kentucky Excise Taxes are on top of General Sales Tax. So it would 6% + $1.50 or 6% + 15% respectively.


    Oh no! The next step is "...known in the state of Kentucky to cause cancer" labels on everything.
     

    440BB

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    That JUUL came up with an effective device was a good thing. JUUL chose to market to the young demographic, accelerating vaping being demonized, so it's hard for me to be objective about their product.

    Between the nic taxes and restriction to tobacco and maybe menthol flavors, there won't be much incentive for a current smoker to switch to vaping. The remaining smokers are, for the most part, those who are resistant to such a change. Saving money and better flavor are important incentives to help them avoid the obvious health issue they still ignore.

    Whatever pods and cigalikes get approved, US vaping ends up in the dark ages. Vaping will be seen as a costly, fairly unpleasant tasting and risky choice. Adoption rates will plummet even further than the attacks on vaping have caused to date.

    The joy so many of us felt upon discovering this wonderful fun way to end our smoking habit won't be experienced very often going forward. We were the lucky ones who jumped in while vaping blossomed.

    I can't help but think vaping may have stayed more available in the marketplace, saving and improving more lives, if JUULing had never happened.
     

    CMD-Ky

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    I had not thought about JUUL and its marketing as a mover in the demise of vaping. I agree 100% with your observations.

    That JUUL came up with an effective device was a good thing. JUUL chose to market to the young demographic, accelerating vaping being demonized, so it's hard for me to be objective about their product.

    Between the nic taxes and restriction to tobacco and maybe menthol flavors, there won't be much incentive for a current smoker to switch to vaping. The remaining smokers are, for the most part, those who are resistant to such a change. Saving money and better flavor are important incentives to help them avoid the obvious health issue they still ignore.

    Whatever pods and cigalikes get approved, US vaping ends up in the dark ages. Vaping will be seen as a costly, fairly unpleasant tasting and risky choice. Adoption rates will plummet even further than the attacks on vaping have caused to date.

    The joy so many of us felt upon discovering this wonderful fun way to end our smoking habit won't be experienced very often going forward. We were the lucky ones who jumped in while vaping blossomed.

    I can't help but think vaping may have stayed more available in the marketplace, saving and improving more lives, if JUULing had never happened.
     

    jwbnyc

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    I’m not sure that I do.

    The larger cigalike companies went to advertising agencies and got the standard cigarette ad campaigns: hot young things dancing and driving exotic convertibles; semi-famous actors wading through paparazzi to get to their Dom Perignon.

    If it hadn’t have been JUUL, it would have been some other company that was demonized. They were a means to an end. They just happened to fit the bill: basically, not a tobacco company.

    There would have been another company to rise and become all the rage with the kids. And, they would have made the same marketing mistakes; all the big tobacco companies did too. Don’t forget: no one was allowed to make health claims for eCigarettes. What does that leave in terms of advertising? Exactly where they all ended up, advertising sex and the good life.
     

    somdcomputerguy

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    The Last I heard, the Basis was being pegged at roughly $0.055/1mg.
    That's basically where my point of mind stands at. More precisely I guess, I see it as 5.5 cents per ml of 0 or 1 mgs of nicotine. Another point that really goads me is that an average cigarette contains about 10 mgs of nicotine, but only 1.8 of those 10 are affected by this bill. I guess because it just burns away.

    eta: I don't remember where I read those numbers. It was from a publication like vaping360 or filtermag or some other one. Maybe an organization like CASAA. I'll find and post the links to back up my claims.
     

    UncLeJunkLe

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    I never saw those Juul ads targeting minors. But I did receive this from Vapor42 earlier this year with my order. Don't overlook the lollipop...

    2wsw63D.jpg
     

    440BB

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    Although packaging that could appeal to children was an ongoing issue, it pales next to JUUL's marketing campaigns in 2015.
    Juul's Internal Documents Show Ads Were Meant To Attract Kids, Lawsuit Says

    TLDR From that article -
    The lawsuit claims that Juul deliberately crafted its ads to feature young, cool-looking people, rejecting an alternative campaign aimed at older smokers who wanted to quit. It sought to get its devices into the hands of the likes of Cara Delevingne, Miley Cyrus, and hundreds of other celebrities and social media influencers. And it bought up ads on kids websites, including Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, teen magazines, and others — even some allegedly aimed at preschoolers.

    Although others may have tried this at a later date, most all advertising at that time was toward adults and young adults, such as the Blu ad showing a twentysomething couple walking on the beach.

    That's why I think JUUL accelerated the regulation process. It gave vaping's opponents a tangible example to generalize from and create massive pressure to "do something" about this "crisis". Nothing negatively influenced public opinion more drastically until the cannabis vape cart debacle in 2019, IMO.
     

    kristin

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    There are two ways to look at JUUL's early marketing campaign: 1) They targeted youth to get them "hooked" or 2) they targeted young adult's who smoked, because they'd be most likely to convert.

    As we hear from ANTZ all of the time, most people started smoking between the ages of 13-21. Getting those people to accept low risk alternatives isn't as nefarious as it's made out to be when you consider that and the fact that people who have been smoking 20, 30, 40+ years are probably less likely to embrace a newfangled technology and would stick to their tried and true cigarettes.

    Additionally, vaping was "sold" to the judge in Sottera vs FDA as a smoking ALTERNATIVE, not a smoking cessation device. If you're selling a competing product (rather than a medical treatment) it makes sense to target the entire market base, not just "old smokers who want to quit."

    Finally, before JUUL hit the market, the ANTZ were going after flavors and brands such as Blu for "targeting kids." They ridiculously claimed that "famous spokespeople" were clearly targeting teens. Blu used Stephen Dorff and Courtney Love as spokespeople, who were in their late 30's and late 40's respectively when they did the ads. Most teens at the time wouldn't have known who these people were. But that didn't stop the ANTZ from claiming Blu was targeting kids with them.

    It just goes to show that the ANTZ would lie and exaggerate regardless and JUUL just provided a great scapegoat for them. They lie (or misdirect/deceive) about JUUL all of the time, including claims JUUL sent representatives into schools and that they sold cotton candy and bubble gum flavors.

    Did JUUL do some stupid stuff mainly out of ignorance (including the same mistake a lot of us "old timers" did in the beginning, thinking ANTZ could be won over "if they just knew the truth?") Yes. But JUUL also took the brunt for the questionable behavior of a lot of other companies, such as manufacturing hoodies and toys with hidden vapes, and flavors with stolen logos/marketing styles of kid-oriented products. The name "JUUL" was frequently used in the same breath with products they never sold. And "ads on kid websites" were most likely random Google Ads, not ads purchased directly from those websites. JUUL would have no real control of where those Google Ads appeared. Anyone who thinks JUUL would happily spend their advertising budget on marketing to preschoolers rather than adults who have money is delusional. That claim has ANTZ misdirection and deception written all over it.

    Also, don't forget that the "teen vaping epidemic" is a lie to begin with. Even at it's height, calling it an "epidemic" was pure propaganda and the numbers were purposely reported in a way to make it sound worse than it was (using past 30 days/even 1 puff as "current user") while also ignoring the declining teen smoking rates. Additionally, teen vaping was actually declining in 2016--the year after JUUL ran it's young adult social media campaign. However, after numerous news reports and anti-vaping campaigns that essentially told teens "Hey kids! Vaping is all the rage with your peers, it comes in flavors you'll like, is easy to hide from parents and teachers and your friends are vaping in the school bathroom," teen experimentation (but not daily use) skyrocketed. So, who really caused the "epidemic?" JUUL, the vaping industry or the ANTZ anti-vaping campaigns? In lying about teen use, they had the option to choose any company as the villain and they would choose whichever one was the biggest seller. It just happened to be JUUL at the time.

    Anyone who thinks that we'd be in a better position if JUUL had never existed apparently wasn't around in the early days, because they'd know that the ANTZ were using every excuse they could find to get vapor products banned BEFORE there was any survey showing teens were vaping. Flavors hook kids, gateway to smoking, second-hand vapor, renormalizing smoking behavior, toxic chemicals, etc., were all talking points before JUUL launched. They couldn't yet claim "there's a teen epidemic," so they claimed "this could cause a teen epidemic" and then made sure that happened. This is not and has never been about "saving the children." It's a moral crusade against anything to do with tobacco or nicotine and the kids are just a convenient tool in their arsenal.
     
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    SonnyCrack

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    @kristin WONDERFUL reply. You captured the truth and put it so beautifully.. And you've been vaping longer than me which there aren't many who have. lol I personally have never used a JUUL or salt nic but I now they have worked for many smokers that I could get to switch because of the harshness of freebase at the nic levels required.. To me I loved the throat hit of 36mg when I first started vaping in 2011 and that was at a time when you could buy 48mg commercial eliquid although most places capped at 36 there were numerous vendors that sold 48mg.. I think JUUL could really help their image by providing an off ramp - there's zero reason why they shouldn't offer lower NIC strengths down to zero if for no other reason then to give a better public image. The same for the rest of the "big" companies.
     
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