Industry Concerns

[Maast]

Having introduced about 8 people to vaping now, the one thing I would like to see above all others is make a PV thats not so dang fiddly and that the hardware lasts longer.

For PVs to take off they'll have to approach the level of simplicity that a pack of smokes and a lighter represent. We need PVs that can be used, charged, and refilled very easily.

Perhaps something like a cartomizer and battery combo in which the cartomizer lasts at least 3 or 4 weeks and can be refilled through a simple fill port that also shows the level of liquid inside.

 

[GoodDog]

I hadn't even thought about a felon that tried to poison somebody! I was thinking about how angry some of the vendors get when members go up against them. I've often wondered if a vendor needing anger management would go as far as trying to harm someone.

 

[SimpleSins]

I hadn't even thought about a felon that tried to poison somebody! I was thinking about how angry some of the vendors get when members go up against them. I've often wondered if a vendor needing anger management would go as far as trying to harm someone.

I'd be more concerned about one with a history of financial problems. Lots of incentive there to take shortcuts. For instance, diluting down juice to half the level you order. Can you imagine the problem that would cause? You order 24 mg juice from Vendor A, who in order to make an extra couple bucks is actually cutting it down to 12. You get it, enjoy it, but notice that it didn't have much kick, so you order 36 mg juice from Vendor B, who is not shorting his nic juice. There's an OD waiting to happen, especially if you've been unknowingly vaping 12 for the last couple weeks. Not to mention the short cuts and money saved with cheap non-USP bases, pesticide grade nicotine, and other shortcuts.

 

[GoodDog]

That's an excellent point, SS! Testing should include nicotine strength and purity that's for sure.

 

[FreakyStylie]

I'd be more concerned about one with a history of financial problems. Lots of incentive there to take shortcuts. For instance, diluting down juice to half the level you order. Can you imagine the problem that would cause? You order 24 mg juice from Vendor A, who in order to make an extra couple bucks is actually cutting it down to 12. You get it, enjoy it, but notice that it didn't have much kick, so you order 36 mg juice from Vendor B, who is not shorting his nic juice. There's an OD waiting to happen, especially if you've been unknowingly vaping 12 for the last couple weeks. Not to mention the short cuts and money saved with cheap non-USP bases, pesticide grade nicotine, and other shortcuts.

Sounds like BT. I know they were elevating and dropping nic levels just to get me to buy more. That is kind of an inherent problem with buying nicotine. How easy would it be for suppliers to sell 24mg juice . . . 3 months later it is 28mg (but still labeled 24mg) . . . 3 months later drop it back to 24mg. Suddenly I am vaping more to get the satisfaction that I was getting for the past 3 months . . . guess I'll order more this time around.

How to you go about knowing this without the FDA?

 

[SimpleSins]

Sounds like BT. I know they were elevating and dropping nic levels just to get me to buy more. That is kind of an inherent problem with buying nicotine. How easy would it be for suppliers to sell 24mg juice . . . 3 months later it is 28mg (but still labeled 24mg) . . . 3 months later drop it back to 24mg. Suddenly I am vaping more to get the satisfaction that I was getting for the past 3 months . . . guess I'll order more this time around.

How to you go about knowing this without the FDA?

I think there was a post in the DIY about a way to determine nicotine concentration for homemade juices. In reality, making your own juice is the only way to really know that.

 

[FreakyStylie]

I think there was a post in the DIY about a way to determine nicotine concentration for homemade juices. In reality, making your own juice is the only way to really know that.

Thanks. There are so many threads to check out, I still have a couple thousand left.

EDIT: Oh yeah, that's why I didn't see it . . . it's a sticky.

 

[enree]

There is a calculator for making your e-juice. Google 'ejuicemeup'. It an application and its free. Hope its helpful.

 

[wv2win]

I hadn't even thought about a felon that tried to poison somebody! I was thinking about how angry some of the vendors get when members go up against them. I've often wondered if a vendor needing anger management would go as far as trying to harm someone.

Maybe all venders should be required to take a Psychological Profile Test that is published so we can all determine whether they might be inclined to do us harm? And we all know that anyone who committed a crime must be a bad person and not to be trusted. I read a book many years ago that provides a frame work on how to go about this. It was called "1984" by George Orwell.

 

[SimpleSins]

Maybe all venders should be required to take a Psychological Profile Test that is published so we can all determine whether they might be inclined to do us harm? And we all know that anyone who committed a crime must be a bad person and not to be trusted. I read a book many years ago that provides a frame work on how to go about this. It was called "1984" by George Orwell.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you but, in my opinion at least, a lot depends on the crime. There is a big difference between someone who got arrested for streaking at a frat party and someone who beats their kids. Because this is something we put into our body with no regulation, we are dependent on the morality and ethics of the vendors. So somebody that has not exactly been the poster child for 'doing the right thing', somebody that has financial difficulties and an incentive to take shortcuts and save a few dollars, may not be the right person to be entrusting with the well-being of an unsuspecting public.

A wise person once said that when somebody shows you who they are, you should believe them.

 

[rogerdugans]

I am pretty concerned about all of the ingredients that go into juice too, and I worry that the reaction to some of the recent clamor will be vendors avoiding one class of additive entirely and replacing it with potentially more dangerous stuff that even less is known about.

Maybe this Profile Test should include a section on People Who React Without Full Information.
I've always seen this as a pretty big danger in life, and been impacted by it a number of times.

 

[shanagan]

I am pretty concerned about all of the ingredients that go into juice too, and I worry that the reaction to some of the recent clamor will be vendors avoiding one class of additive entirely and replacing it with potentially more dangerous stuff that even less is known about.

Maybe this Profile Test should include a section on People Who React Without Full Information.
I've always seen this as a pretty big danger in life, and been impacted by it a number of times.

You keep mentioning that you are concerned about removing one additive and replacing it with another potentially more dangerous additive. Wouldn't that fall under reacting without full information?

So what's the answer, roger? Keep diacetyl in the juices? To what end?

 

[wv2win]

Maybe it doesn't matter to you but, in my opinion at least, a lot depends on the crime. There is a big difference between someone who got arrested for streaking at a frat party and someone who beats their kids. Because this is something we put into our body with no regulation, we are dependent on the morality and ethics of the vendors. So somebody that has not exactly been the poster child for 'doing the right thing', somebody that has financial difficulties and an incentive to take shortcuts and save a few dollars, may not be the right person to be entrusting with the well-being of an unsuspecting public.

A wise person once said that when somebody shows you who they are, you should believe them.

And who is the arbiter of which so-called "crime" commited should be banned from operating a small buiness that supplies personal vaporizers? You, the FDA?? Following your point logically, anyone who operates or works at a consession stand at a county fair should have a published psychological profile required before they can earn $5.87 an hour serving hot dogs with possiblely tainted ketchup. The FDA and Big Brother will support this position completely.

 

[SimpleSins]

And who is the arbiter of which so-called "crime" commited should be banned from operating a small buiness that supplies personal vaporizers? You, the FDA?? Following your point logically, anyone who operates or works at a consession stand at a county fair should have a published psychological profile required before they can earn $5.87 an hour serving hot dogs with possiblely tainted ketchup. The FDA and Big Brother will support this position completely.

I don't know where you ever came up with the whole psychological profile thing. As usual, threads are being twisted to suit your particular needs. It was a different discussion which was part of the reasoning as to why some type of self-regulation was needed- so that even the 'unsavory' would have to adhere to some sort of standard.

And, just to be clear, someone making $5.87 at the concession stand does not have a lot of opportunity to solve his financial problems with the proceeds. Someone who has $10K coming in a month has a little more opportunity.

 

[rogerdugans]

Find out what it is being replaced with first so that something that is MORE dangerous is not used instead.

Yes, diacetyl has risks- so far nothing I have seen, NOTHING, proves it to be anywhere nearly as dangerous as the nicotine that most vapers require and yet I see nobody (thankfully!) insisting that nicotine be removed.

I am not defending diacetyl per se, its just that I am not so much in favor of replacing it with something that even less is known about.
The MAIN thing I am not in favor of is seeing any vendors who are trying to make a difference and improve the knowledge level of the industry with science castigated incessantly.

To sum it up, my answer is this:
there are a number of vendors who list which juices contain diacetyl.
there are a number of vendors who state that they use no diacetyl whatsoever.

If you want to avoid diacetyl and feel comfortable trusting those vendors, buy from them.

Stop bashing vendors that don't. There are those of us around that WANT more information and will support the people trying to develop it.

 

[shanagan]

Find out what it is being replaced with first so that something that is MORE dangerous is not used instead.

Yes, diacetyl has risks- so far nothing I have seen, NOTHING, proves it to be anywhere nearly as dangerous as the nicotine that most vapers require and yet I see nobody (thankfully!) insisting that nicotine be removed.

I am not defending diacetyl per se, its just that I am not so much in favor of replacing it with something that even less is known about.
The MAIN thing I am not in favor of is seeing any vendors who are trying to make a difference and improve the knowledge level of the industry with science castigated incessantly.

To sum it up, my answer is this:
there are a number of vendors who list which juices contain diacetyl.
there are a number of vendors who state that they use no diacetyl whatsoever.

If you want to avoid diacetyl and feel comfortable trusting those vendors, buy from them.

Stop bashing vendors that don't. There are those of us around that WANT more information and will support the people trying to develop it.

I just don't even know how to reply to this, I truly don't. I mean... don't mention (I do not "bash") vendors that don't disclose? That's what you want me to do? Because you want more information from those non-disclosure vendors? I... I will, again, just wish you well.

 

[rogerdugans]

I apologize- I should have specified that I was not referring to any specific individual. I am truly sorry.

But I have, and still do see bashing and harassment towards vendors, and that bothers me greatly.

 

[Sdh]

I apologize- I should have specified that I was not referring to any specific individual. I am truly sorry.

But I have, and still do see bashing and harassment towards vendors, and that bothers me greatly.[/QUOT

Sorry, I don't see any bashing here at all. Just that a certain vendor did not want to offer disclosure. I won't even mention the name. Harassment is more defined than just posting questions and stating facts.

However, no one is stating not to use vendors who do not disclose. I think most people can choose on their own. One does not even have to view this thread. It is all about choice.

On a different note...some people do care what we vape into our lungs. I know, I know we have smoked cigarettes throughout the years. Most of us have quit to improve our lung function and long term well-being. With this said I cannot inhale a substance that is know to cause Brochiolitis Obliterans. This is serious and its not about bashing. It is about finding information, making choices, and sorting out the real truth from fiction.



I personally do not want to die with respitory failure or anything similar to that

 

[ScottB]

If, by some odd chance, someone with influence in the industry were to poke their nose into this thread to find out where they need to improve, thru this point they would find:

3 posts establishing the thread
13 posts asking for juice-maker regs
10 posts in an "other" category - manfuacturer consolidation, branding, advocacy/trade groups, etc.
8 posts asking for hardware improvement
127 posts of position defense, philosophy, and just conversation
(no, it won't add up - there are a few posts with multiple points of issue. And I was careful not to count redundancies)

They would infer that the "juicers" are the "loudest", the most passionate, but don't represent a far & away dominant concern. They would infer that they need to work in many areas.

Thought I'd tally it up now to put a better lens filter on the original question. (and so it wouldn't be overwhelming later)

 

[shanagan]

If, by some odd chance, someone with influence in the industry were to poke their nose into this thread to find out where they need to improve, thru this point they would find:

3 posts establishing the thread
13 posts asking for juice-maker regs
10 posts in an "other" category - manfuacturer consolidation, branding, advocacy/trade groups, etc.
8 posts asking for hardware improvement
127 posts of position defense, philosophy, and just conversation
(no, it won't add up - there are a few posts with multiple points of issue. And I was careful not to count redundancies)

They would infer that the "juicers" are the "loudest", the most passionate, but don't represent a far & away dominant concern. They would infer that they need to work in many areas.

Thought I'd tally it up now to put a better lens filter on the original question. (and so it wouldn't be overwhelming later)

LOL at juicers.

It's my belief that if we could work on the trade association angle first, the rest would follow.