Is it all just an act of futility?

[Rule62]

What we really need is a referendum to set term limits. They were never supposed to be life time appointments.

I've never really understood the 'term limit' argument that seems to come up a lot lately.
In Presidential election years, we barely crack the 50% mark in voter participation. In mid term years, the participation rate is often in the low 40s. How can anyone argue for term limits, when less than 50% of eligible voters bother to vote, on average?
We have term limits now. It's called VOTING.
We don't always get the political leadership we want. But we get the leadership we deserve, due to lack of participation.

 

[DC2]

Guillotines are so messy and unhygienic.

Yeah, I doubt they are FDA approved.

I've never really understood the 'term limit' argument that seems to come up a lot lately.
In Presidential election years, we barely crack the 50% mark in voter participation. In mid term years, the participation rate is often in the low 40s. How can anyone argue for term limits, when less than 50% of eligible voters bother to vote, on average?
We have term limits now. It's called VOTING.
We don't always get the political leadership we want. But we get the leadership we deserve, due to lack of participation.

I do wonder if voting participation would go way up if term limits were imposed.

The flavoring will go untouched if it's food grade

But if you advertise a flavor as diketone-free, then intended use will shut you down.

 

[Marc411]

I've never really understood the 'term limit' argument that seems to come up a lot lately.
In Presidential election years, we barely crack the 50% mark in voter participation. In mid term years, the participation rate is often in the low 40s. How can anyone argue for term limits, when less than 50% of eligible voters bother to vote, on average?
We have term limits now. It's called VOTING.
We don't always get the political leadership we want. But we get the leadership we deserve, due to lack of participation.

Great point Rule and I've made my voice heard every election since I was old enough to vote. Problem is that you can't drag people to the polls.

 

[GeorgeS]

Is it all for naught? That depends. There could be or is more than one fight going on here.

• Local/State Use laws: where I live they have already made it illegal to vape when and where smoking is illegal.
• Local/State/Fed tax laws: my state ranks only 27th or so on the tax rates however it has long been estimated that as much as 75-95% of the cost of tobacco products is the taxes.
• Chemical and product regulation. The FDA and I'll bet a few more agencies might want to look at these devices.

Sadly during "fire season" you can only vape inside a enclosed mostly non-flammable area or on a body of water. Best not do it at work, in the car with kids or at any of our State or Federal parks. Currently in many areas "vaping" is enjoying no 'sin taxes'. If "tax free" 30ml costs ~$15 with taxes it could easily cost $100+ making vaping cost more than smoking analogs.

Just about everything you can purchase in a store and ingest or consume has ether or date code and lot code on the package. This makes the stuff traceable if a "batch" gets contaminated. While I can sell the veggies I grow in my garden at the local farmers market, if I make relish or something out of it, it better have been done in a state approved kitchen with state certified workers and I better keep damn good records where all my ingredents came from as well as their date+lot codes. (ever get a juice bottle with a safety seal? Yeah, me nether.)

How do you think they track illnesses and contaminated product and such back to the source?

Maybe the guy that invented the concept could not get a patent on the idea. Maybe all the manufacturers and suppliers have simply jumped into a "free-for-all" where anything goes and just doing their best efforts at a money grab while they can.

Personally I think the biggest hit will be the nicotine supply. I have 2.5L of 100mg base in the freezer and will have 5L by the end of the year. I've written my congress critters but don't have high hopes.

 

[Jman8]

It's impossible for the gov to stop us but it's possible for them to destroy the legal market for new vapers.

*Fixed for accuracy

 

[Rossum]

*Fixed for accuracy

No doubt.

But the real question is how many people who are not currently vapers will be still be willing consider the switch from smoking to vaping when they have to go "underground" in order to get vape gear and consumables?

 

[Jman8]

No doubt.

But the real question is how many people who are not currently vapers will be still be willing consider the switch from smoking to vaping when they have to go "underground" in order to get vape gear and consumables?

Less, for sure, than on the legal market. But some, for sure, cause our side's propaganda (aka truth) won't die.

 

[EBates]

Great point Rule and I've made my voice heard every election since I was old enough to vote. Problem is that you can't drag people to the polls.

Why not the Dems (socialists) have been doing it for years. How do you think they stay in office

 

[skoony]

Flavourings, PG, vg, wire, wick and batteries are safe far too many other applications

While it is true that there are many things that can not be regulated individually,
they all can be regulated for intended use. The systems are already in place or
will be in place in most places as point of purchase equipment is upgraded.
I am required to present my state ID when putting money on my pre-pay
card. All my info and ID number are manually entered at the cash register.
The newer systems will allow you to just swipe your ID. All that need to be done
is to amass a list of contraband uses and require verifiable ID for purchase.
By providing ID you acknowledge that you will not use said items for illegal
purposes.
Regards
Mike

 

[skoony]

Your Numbers are kinda Off.

Because the Federal Government alone get $1.01 for Every Pack of Cigarettes sold in the United States. Regardless of what State they are sold in.

Then, On Top of that, states have their own Separate Tax which Varies from State to State. Here is a Map of what State Taxes looked like on Jan 1st 2015...

Its nice to see Minnesota right up there in the top ten.
Unfortunately its only on these types of lists.
Regards
Mike

 

[roxynoodle]

While it is true that there are many things that can not be regulated individually,
they all can be regulated for intended use. The systems are already in place or
will be in place in most places as point of purchase equipment is upgraded.
I am required to present my state ID when putting money on my pre-pay
card. All my info and ID number are manually entered at the cash register.
The newer systems will allow you to just swipe your ID. All that need to be done
is to amass a list of contraband uses and require verifiable ID for purchase.
By providing ID you acknowledge that you will not use said items for illegal
purposes.
Regards
Mike

In Ohio, you have to that to buy decongestants or spray paint.

 

[Jdurand]

That's it, I'm going to just stockpile what would amount to 100 years of personal nic supply. I'll wait for the FDA to do whatever it is they are going to do and then i'll be the "Pablo Escobar" of vaping. I see an opportunity for many to become millionaires over this.

Is this what you want BG.....do you wish to turn us into criminals......all for just trying to save our lives from your tax laden poison?

I remember when my non smoking friends would cringe over the price of smokes. I would complain it's all taxes, while they would turn an uncaring cheek and say just quit. OK quitting was the best thing I ever did, but to get taxed into quitting was not the motivation I wanted to use. I used to warn them, wait till we all quit smiking and the government needs more money, this time they came after the vapers, next time it could be something that effects YOU directly. Even this new assault on the taxpayer is being ignored by those that feel they have no vices.

I hope they have a forum for their cause!

 

[bluecat]

They tried Prohibition in the 20s. It, well you know history.

They have already demonized smoking. In 1998 (I hope I have the day right), the tobacco companies settled their bribe with the states. 250 billion paid out over 25 years. 2008 - 10 years... 2016... 20 years.. 2021 25 year and end of payments. Anyone have an idea of what may be coming in the next 5-6 years?

The US Government tried to get their hands into the cookie jar for 280billion plus medicare reimbursements. They won but no $, just that the cigarette manufactures targeted kids, are racketeers and must say a few hail marys for their sins and maybe a spanking.

It is always about the money.

 

[Rule62]

While it is true that there are many things that can not be regulated individually,
they all can be regulated for intended use. The systems are already in place or
will be in place in most places as point of purchase equipment is upgraded.
I am required to present my state ID when putting money on my pre-pay
card. All my info and ID number are manually entered at the cash register.
The newer systems will allow you to just swipe your ID. All that need to be done
is to amass a list of contraband uses and require verifiable ID for purchase.
By providing ID you acknowledge that you will not use said items for illegal
purposes.
Regards
Mike

In Florida, this is the way fireworks are sold; and fireworks shops are quite common. The buyer has to sign an affidavit, stating they are for agricultural use, scaring away birds, etc.
You wouldn't believe the number of farmers that are buying fireworks, prior to 4th of July and New Year's Eve every year.

 

[bluecat]

I've never really understood the 'term limit' argument that seems to come up a lot lately.
In Presidential election years, we barely crack the 50% mark in voter participation. In mid term years, the participation rate is often in the low 40s. How can anyone argue for term limits, when less than 50% of eligible voters bother to vote, on average?
We have term limits now. It's called VOTING.
We don't always get the political leadership we want. But we get the leadership we deserve, due to lack of participation.

I am big proponent of term limits. There is term limits on the office of the president why not on the house and senate? It keeps out the career politicians. The offices were made to be a part time job, not a career like it has morphed into in this day and age. Then these nasty lobbyist can't get their grubby hands into politics. Make it a mandatory leave of absence. Just like the president, it would cut back on consecutive terms.

It would have unheard of to have a Robert Byrd in recent past. People didn't live to be a gazillion years old. They either died of disease or by way of duel. 59 years in the house and senate. We can go to the other side with Strom and 47 years in the senate. They get entrenched and voter apathy takes strangle hold.

 

[Rule62]

I am big proponent of term limits. There is term limits on the office of the president why not on the house and senate? It keeps out the career politicians. The offices were made to be a part time job, not a career like it has morphed into in this day and age. Then these nasty lobbyist can't get their grubby hands into politics. Make it a mandatory leave of absence. Just like the president, it would cut back on consecutive terms.

It would have unheard of to have a Robert Byrd in recent past. People didn't live to be a gazillion years old. They either died of disease or by way of duel. 59 years in the house and senate. We can go to the other side with Strom and 47 years in the senate. They get entrenched and voter apathy takes strangle hold.

Keep in mind, prior to Franklin Roosevelt, there were no term limits for President. FDR was elected to the Presidency 4 times. It required a Constitutional Amendment, to limit the President to 2 terms. It would require another Ammendment to limit Congreassional terms.
Also, keep in mind that Strom Thurmond and Robert Byrd were duly elected, and subsequently reelected by their constituents. Their reigns could have ended at any time, by the voters.

 

[Rossum]

In Florida, this is the way fireworks are sold; and fireworks shops are quite common. The buyer has to sign an affidavit, stating they are for agricultural use, scaring away birds, etc.
You wouldn't believe the number of farmers that are buying fireworks, prior to 4th of July and New Year's Eve every year.

Fishermen too. Don't wanna have to compete with the pelicans when I'm surf-fishing.

 

[bluecat]

Keep in mind, prior to Franklin Roosevelt, there were no term limits for President. FDR was elected to the Presidency 4 times. It required a Constitutional Amendment, to limit the President to 2 terms. It would require another Ammendment to limit Congreassional terms.
Also, keep in mind that Strom Thurmond and Robert Byrd were duly elected, and subsequently reelected by their constituents. Their reigns could have ended at any time, by the voters.

Correct but it was an unwritten rule prior to that. Some of us can live by unwritten rules but then are forced to write them. It won't come as a shock but WW2 was in the midst. The same could be said of house and senate members. The funny thing is Roosevelt won by saying we wouldn't go to war. Then December 7, 1941 came.

Yes, they were duly elected by an apathetic block of voters whose turnout is grim as you so stated.

Like it was time to change the voting after Roosevelt, it is time to change it now. Besides there is nothing stopping a president from taking 4 years off to run again except them

So futility or not? Believe in what you will and stand up for that. Don't let an apathetic class of voters do it.

 

[bobwho77]

One of these ddays, werwe're going to have to get ORGANIZED.

The National Rifle Association has about 4.5-5 million members. Look at THEIR effectiveness as a lobbying/political organization.

We have something like 9 million vapers. If as much as HALF of us joined/supported CASAA, we'd at least be able to equal them in numbers, if not in political clout
The only thing that's going to help at this point, is to make the message loud and clear, from town-halls, to state legislatures, to Capitol Hill, and the White House...

WE VAPE AND WE VOTE!

 

[Rule62]

One of these ddays, werwe're going to have to get ORGANIZED.

The National Rifle Association has about 4.5-5 million members. Look at THEIR effectiveness as a lobbying/political organization.

We have something like 9 million vapers. If as much as HALF of us joined/supported CASAA, we'd at least be able to equal them in numbers, if not in political clout
The only thing that's going to help at this point, is to make the message loud and clear, from town-halls, to state legislatures, to Capitol Hill, and the White House...

WE VAPE AND WE VOTE!

The thing is, most people claim to hate lobbyists, and 'big money' politics. But the reality is, we only hate the lobbyists who oppose our interests. We love the ones who support our interests, and willingly contribute to them. Everybody has lobbyists. It doesn't matter if you're a gun owner, anti gun, Union member, anti Union, Republican, Democrat, pro life, pro choice, pro vaping, anti vaping, etc. sadly, it's how the game is played. You either fish, or cut bait. I guarantee, $1 million in the hands of a lobbyist goes a lot farther than a million phone calls or letters to the White House or Congressmen.