Is the nic bar becoming lower?

[smoked25years]

Kids drink beer too. Some of those kids die directly from alcohol poisoning or from secondary events like car crashes. But nobody is banning beer... or cans... or red solo cups.

juul created a very successful product (one that got me off cigarettes). They're getting a lot of attention by the government and the media because of that success.

Right now lots of companies in the industry are being targeted by the government for advertising and labels that are attractive to children. Dom, you were going to laser etch a cartoon panda on your mod. Some adults want cartoons on their mods. Some adults want a small and practical device like the juul because it fits their busy lives.

 

[Foggy Road]

I'm a Tootle cloud chaser. The visible vapor I exhale is a very important aspect of vaping for me. But I have no need for it to look like the steam blowing out the exhaust pipe of a cold engine on a below freezing morning.
But that is how every reviewer exhales (no matter what type device), so why would newbies not think that is what they should be striving for?
I like, what I'm sure most would consider, an extremely tight draw. Of my fave tanks 1 type has two .8mm fixed air holes. And that's the airy one. Another uses set screw for AFC and I run that even tighter than the first. I have a new relic AIO device about to be delivered that uses the same set screw setup for afc.
I've seen my type draw described as trying to suck a watermelon thru a coffee stirrer. I suppose that's entirely true, IF you MUST attack your vape that way. I just apply a gentle vacuum to the drip tip and take what it gives. Kinda like smoking a cig, ya know? And I do enjoy the vapor wafting all around my head as I exhale, just as slowly, back and forth between nasal and oral. No need to go to the patio door and try to agitate my neighbors with my cloud interfering with thier view of the tv in thier living room.
Sure, I can and have rebuilt every disposable coil I've gotten my hands on. Have a pile of real RTAs, all being ignored. Guess I'm getting lazy in my old age, but my current coils are practically a dime a dozen, last for weeks, and have been around a long time as I expect they will continue to be. So that's what I use.
I've also tired of recharging 18xxx batteries and gone back to ego and Evod batts or internal batt devices.

 

[vapdivrr]

You don't have to be 18 to buy and vape?

I'm pretty sure your suppose to be...

 

[vapdivrr]

. I just apply a gentle vacuum to the drip tip and take what it gives. Kinda like smoking a cig, ya know? .

I vape a similiar draw, 1.4 mm af is my sweet spot and I agree that I find it similar to the draw of a cig....I have tried a sub ohm tank a couple years ago, just to see what big af and wattage feels like and found it not to my liking. But I often hear people saying that mtl vaping was nothing like the draw from a cig, so they moved to big air and dtl to get that cig feeling back again......I totally don't see that at all

 

[Tim Wiseman]

In the EU Nic Shots are lower mg than the e-liquid i use to vape when i first started vaping.

 

[Foggy Road]

...I totally don't see that at all

I think they must be referring to the 'full lung' feel. Tho lungs are near useless for nic absorption the full feeling does have its own form of satisfaction.
My first DL experience was with a Lemo RTA and and it's preinstalled .99 ohm coil. And that lung sensation sucked me in. In spite of knowing I shouldn't go there with my old smoke battered lungs, emphysema, COPD and other crap I can't remember the name of.
Anyway was down as low as .3 and 20-25 Watts for about 18 months or so. Finally had to get away from it. All the phlegm and junk that my lungs were already full of just seemed to thicken from the vapor and become even more problematic, especially in the mornings..
So do understand the attraction but just can't be going there and never should have.

I do suspect that those driving the true 'gas guzzlers' will be the first to expose any long term ill effects from vaping and I appreciate their sacrifice, in advance.

 

[Rossum]

Tho lungs are near useless for nic absorption

I'd never vaped DL myself, but I have a hard time with that concept. People who vape DL seem to be able to absorb a satisfying amount of nicotine at much lower concentrations than people who don't. An increase in vapor volume flowing across the oral and/or nasal membranes doesn't explain that, since only a limited amount can "stick" there. It seems to me that for a lower concentration to produce the same results, it has to be absorbed over a greater surface area and there's only one place where that could be happening; in the lungs.

 

[dom qp]

I'd never vaped DL myself, but I have a hard time with that concept. People who vape DL seem to be able to absorb a satisfying amount of nicotine at much lower concentrations than people who don't. An increase in vapor volume flowing across the oral and/or nasal membranes doesn't explain that, since only a limited amount can "stick" there. It seems to me that for a lower concentration to produce the same results, it has to be absorbed over a greater surface area and there's only one place where that could be happening; in the lungs.

Nicotine can be absorbed through mucus membranes like the inside of the mouth and nose. But it also can be absorbed through the throat. That's a lot of additional surface area. I'd wager the throat has at least as much as the mouth.

We often talk about people perpetuating myths about vaping or non vaping. It's just as bad when it comes to MTL and DTL. People are biased, partisan, and don't want to learn about the other side.

Subohm vaping is not creating a teenage vaping epidemic. MTL Juuls aren't either. Big clouds aren't just about vanity and showing off, there's more surface area inside the body that helps absorb it into the blood and theres an undoubtedly higher volume of vape that some people find more satisfying in the lungs.

 

[Foggy Road]

@Rossum This sounds like an invite to a debate that could go on forever with no resolution. I do understand your reasoning but don't entirely agree with it.
My thinking is that with my wispy Tootle clouds carrying their 24 to 36mg nic. The vapor is so light and the portion of that light vapor that actually contacts anything is so minute that it comes nowhere near pushing the capacity of the limited surface area that you mention.
Now with the much lower concentration of nic in the cloud chuckers juice and the much higher concentration of vapor, keeping in mind that still only a small portion of that, much denser vapor is ever gonna contact anything, I do believe the oral and nasal membranes have the capacity to absorb the nic they're getting.

So... I guess we're just gonna believe what we believe?

 

[dom qp]

This sounds like an invite to a debate that could go on forever with no resolution. I do understand your reasoning but don't entirely agree with it.
My thinking is that with my wispy Tootle clouds carrying their 24 to 36mg nic. The vapor is so light and the portion of that light vapor that actually contacts anything is so minute that it comes nowhere near pushing the capacity of the limited surface area that you mention.
Now with the much lower concentration of nic in the cloud chuckers juice and the much higher concentration of vapor, keeping in mind that still only a small portion of that, much denser vapor is ever gonna contact anything, I do believe the oral and nasal membranes have the capacity to absorb the nic they're getting.

So... I guess we're just gonna believe what we believe?

The problem with that is it's not a belief topic. You can believe in unicorns, the tooth fairy, and in your local politicians' word. You can choose to believe or not believe in scientific truths, but belief doesn't change whether or not they are factual.

I don't MTL and I probably will never MTL again. But I don't care what people do. I just do what works for me, and nicotine absorption efficiency it won't change that.

I'm interested in learning the truth about the question though, not beliefs in whether or not they support my views.

The answer probably lies in the 'it doesn't matter' range.

Whether you do less mg over a larger surface area or more mg over a smaller surface area, you're likely going to vape up until the point the nicotine in your blood leave you satisfied.

 

[Jebbn]

I mtl 6mg juice this week. About 4ml a day. I dont take deep to lung draw, just a light draw in and partial lung and expel.
By partial lung I mean I inhale deep enough so I can expel through the nose.
Clouds arent wispy, theyre thick enough but not as much volume as when I DL using the NRG, which isnt often.
Im dont feel like Im relating to a lot of the posts in this thread

 

[Foggy Road]

The problem with that is it's not a belief topic. You can believe in unicorns, the tooth fairy, and in your local politicians' word. You can choose to believe or not believe in scientific truths, but belief doesn't change whether or not they are factual.

I don't MTL and I probably will never MTL again. But I don't care what people do. I just do what works for me, and regardless of nicotine absorption efficiency it won't change that.

I'm interested in learning the truth about the question though, not beliefs in whether or not they support my views.

Well, if you're willing to sponsor the scientific studies to provide quantified proof on way or the other feel free to do so.
Beliefs? My belief is in myself. The information I've read and the understanding of said info that I've arrived at with my limited capacity for interpretation of said info.
What I will never do is get so full of myself as to state what I believe that I know as irrefutable fact. I will always be open to the possibility that I might learn from an opposing point of view.

 

[vapdivrr]

.

I do suspect that those driving the true 'gas guzzlers' will be the first to expose any long term ill effects from vaping and I appreciate their sacrifice, in advance.

I hope not, but it does make sense. Personally I vape about 2 to 3mls per day , but some vape like 10, 20, or even 30mls a day, which is unfathomable to me, but even at those amounts, still believe it more safe then smokes

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[Foggy Road]

I hope not, but it does make sense. Personally I vape about 2 to 3mls per day , but some vape like 10, 20, or even 30mls a day, which is unfathomable to me, but even at those amounts, still believe it more safe then smokes

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

And I'm sure there may be sensitive folk among us who may have found my statement that you quoted to be offensive. Far from it. It was heartfelt, as I don't expect to be around see what the long term effects may or may not be, I felt like putting it out there.
My current doctor pointed at my vape hanging from my neck and growled about it being worse than smoking. Followed that with the statement... Doesn't matter, it's too late for you anyway!
But I really don't put much faith in doctors who tell you what they want you to hear.
I was told at 16 that I wouldn't live to see 21 so, at 64, I'm living on borrowed time anyway.

 

[smoked25years]

In 2014, an article in a scientific journal compared old and new technology. The new technology was capable of delivering more nicotine with the same 18mg/ml liquid. The authors hypothesized that it would take 50mg/ml to come close to the levels from smoking. The Juul became available the following year.

Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices

The technology is simple but has changed rapidly. In another 10 years some of our current mods may look as silly as the 1st cell phone.

 

[smoked25years]

And I'm sure there may be sensitive folk among us who may have found my statement that you quoted to be offensive. Far from it. It was heartfelt, as I don't expect to be around see what the long term effects may or may not be, I felt like putting it out there.
My current doctor pointed at my vape hanging from my neck and growled about it being worse than smoking. Followed that with the statement... Doesn't matter, it's too late for you anyway!
But I really don't put much faith in doctors who tell you what they want you to hear.
I was told at 16 that I wouldn't live to see 21 so, at 64, I'm living on borrowed time anyway.

@FoggyRoad Keep proving the doctors wrong and shoot for another 48 years! I agree that the high volume used by some will be helpful to research. It could be good news or bad news. I hope it's good.

 

[Rossum]

Nicotine can be absorbed through mucus membranes like the inside of the mouth and nose. But it also can be absorbed through the throat. That's a lot of additional surface area. I'd wager the throat has at least as much as the mouth.

Yeah, but every MTL vaper I know of pulls vapor at least as far as their throat. So it seems to me the only part of the anatomy that isn't seeing the vapor is the lungs.

My thinking is that with my wispy Tootle clouds carrying their 24 to 36mg nic. The vapor is so light and the portion of that light vapor that actually contacts anything is so minute that it comes nowhere near pushing the capacity of the limited surface area that you mention.

My MTL vape is by no means "wispy".

 

[Foggy Road]

In 2014, an article in a scientific journal compared old and new technology. The new technology was capable of delivering more nicotine with the same 18mg/ml liquid. The authors hypothesized that it would take 50mg/ml to come close to the levels from smoking. The Juul became available the following year.

Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices
View attachment 776129

The technology is simple but has changed rapidly. In another 10 years some of our current mods may look as silly as the 1st cell phone.

View attachment 776127

Hey I've still got a working wireless (not cell) phone that looks very similar to that.

 

[Foggy Road]

@FoggyRoad Keep proving the doctors wrong and shoot for another 48 years! I agree that the high volume used by some will be helpful to research. It could be good news or bad news. I hope it's good.

Oh good lord please don't condemn me to another 48!

 

[Foggy Road]

My MTL vape is by no means "wispy".

Lol, please keep in mind that I've been to the 'other world' and back. My MTL vape is impressive to me also but I still have no problem with calling it 'wispy' as compared to what I've belched forth at other times.