Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[DeAnna2112]

I've have been labeled myself. Didn't you know that I am totally heartless and, have no compassion nor
concern for my fellow vapers?
Regards
Mike

That's the problem skoony, it stems from both sides. Sometimes i am not sure who is worse...the ANTZ or the Anti-ANTZ folks. Neither side are concerned about anyone but their agendas and their hate for one another. The rest of us just want to make vaping as safe as possible regardless of who is right or wrong.

 

[skoony]

That's the problem skoony, it stems from both sides. Sometimes i am not sure who is worse...the ANTZ or the Anti-ANTZ folks. Neither side are concerned about anyone but their agendas and their hate for one another. The rest of us just want to make vaping as safe as possible regardless of who is right or wrong.

That's fare enough. Do me a favor though and keep the government out of it.
Regards
Mike

 

[DeAnna2112]

That's fare enough. Do me a favor though and keep the government out of it.
Regards
Mike

Just for the record I do not think diketones should be regulated, i think vapers should have that choice. I also do not believe sellers should be required to test their liquid. I do however believe it should be a requirement of sellers to note whether their liquids have been tested or not for it.

 

[Vapntime]

I love vaping but we are blinded by our addiction:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25979079

 

[skoony]

Just for the record I do not think diketones should be regulated, i think vapers should have that choice. I also do not believe sellers should be required to test their liquid. I do however believe it should be a requirement of sellers to note whether their liquids have been tested or not for it.

Your absolutely correct hence, the diketone free vendors thread.
Regards
Mike

 

[skoony]

I love vaping but we are blinded by our addiction:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25979079

The health effects of inhaling nicotine are well known. nicotine inhalers are considered
safe for lifetime use by the FDA.
Regards
Mike

 

[Vapntime]

The health effects of inhaling nicotine are well known. nicotine inhalers are considered
safe for lifetime use by the FDA.
Regards
Mike

Not in the form of current e-cig vapor and what about the rest of the study.

 

[skoony]

Not in the form of current e-cig vapor and what about the rest of the study.

There are other studies that have confirmed the opposite is true.
here's one of several.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0024320596001002 ingredientof nic inhalers

Here is what the the monumental 1964 Surgeon Generals Report On Smoking has to
say about nicotine.
"
page 41
The habitual use of tobacco is related primarily to psychological and
social drives, reinforced and perpetuated by the pharmacological actions
of nicotine.
Social stimulation appears to play a major role in a young person’s early
and first experiments with smoking. No scientific evidence supports the
popular hypothesis that smoking among adolescents is an expression
rebellion against authority. Individual stress appears to be associated more
with fluctuations in the amount of smoking than with the prevalence of smoking.
The overwhelming evidence indicates that smoking-its beginning,
habituation, and occasional discontinuation-is to a very large extent psychologically
and socially determined.
Nicotine is rapidly changed in the body to relatively inactive substances
with low toxicity. The chronic toxicity of small doses of nicotine is low
in experimental animals. These two facts, when taken in conjunction with
the low mortality ratios of pipe and cigar smokers, indicate that the chronic
toxicity of nicotine in quantities absorbed from smoking and other methods
of tobacco use is very low and probably does not represent an important
health hazard. "
http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/nnbbmq.pdf

Regards
Mike

 

[Vapntime]

There are other studies that have confirmed the opposite is true.
here's one of several.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0024320596001002 ingredientof nic inhalers

Here is what the the monumental 1964 Surgeon Generals Report On Smoking has to
say about nicotine.
"
page 41
The habitual use of tobacco is related primarily to psychological and
social drives, reinforced and perpetuated by the pharmacological actions
of nicotine.
Social stimulation appears to play a major role in a young person’s early
and first experiments with smoking. No scientific evidence supports the
popular hypothesis that smoking among adolescents is an expression
rebellion against authority. Individual stress appears to be associated more
with fluctuations in the amount of smoking than with the prevalence of smoking.
The overwhelming evidence indicates that smoking-its beginning,
habituation, and occasional discontinuation-is to a very large extent psychologically
and socially determined.
Nicotine is rapidly changed in the body to relatively inactive substances
with low toxicity. The chronic toxicity of small doses of nicotine is low
in experimental animals. These two facts, when taken in conjunction with
the low mortality ratios of pipe and cigar smokers, indicate that the chronic
toxicity of nicotine in quantities absorbed from smoking and other methods
of tobacco use is very low and probably does not represent an important
health hazard. "
http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/nnbbmq.pdf

Regards
Mike

The study is about nicotine and solubles in current e-cig vapor. 1964 Surgeons generals report...Really. Thanks for your time skoony.

 

[skoony]

The study is about nicotine and solubles in current e-cig vapor.

"These results suggest that soluble components of e-Cig, including nicotine, cause dose-dependent loss of lung endothelial barrier function, which is associated with oxidative stress and brisk inflammation."
What was the dose? As far as e-juice in general there are several studies confirming
there was no lasting effects on the lungs.
http://ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2013/135-evaluation-of-the-cytotoxic
http://ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2013/127-no-adverse-effects
http://acsh.org/2015/07/e-cig-vapor...ng-cells-while-cigarette-smoke-wreaked-havoc/
Regards
Mike

 

[Vapntime]

"These results suggest that soluble components of e-Cig, including nicotine, cause dose-dependent loss of lung endothelial barrier function, which is associated with oxidative stress and brisk inflammation."
What was the dose? As far as e-juice in general there are several studies confirming
there was no lasting effects on the lungs.
http://ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2013/135-evaluation-of-the-cytotoxic
http://ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/research/2013/127-no-adverse-effects
http://acsh.org/2015/07/e-cig-vapor...ng-cells-while-cigarette-smoke-wreaked-havoc/
Regards
Mike

The first two are cardiology studies. Yes, the last study is promising but it is still inline with the results of http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25979079

 

[zoiDman]

That's the problem skoony, it stems from both sides. Sometimes i am not sure who is worse...the ANTZ or the Anti-ANTZ folks. Neither side are concerned about anyone but their agendas and their hate for one another. The rest of us just want to make vaping as safe as possible regardless of who is right or wrong.

I think you Pretty Much Nailed it right there.

It seems that with some people, everything is All or Nothing, Black or White, Either you are For Us or you are Against Us. There is No Middle Ground.

 

[skoony]

@Vapntime
I forgot to mention earlier nicotine inhalers contained the same ingredients
as e-cigs with a few more added.
Regards
mike

 

[Vapntime]

@Vapntime
I forgot to mention earlier nicotine inhalers contained the same ingredients
as e-cigs with a few more added.
Regards
mike

Yes, but they are not heated. Believe me I want it to be safe too or relatively safe.

 

[skoony]

The first two are cardiology studies. Yes, the last study is promising but it is still inline with the results of http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25979079

How so? Your study said dose dependent. What was the dose?
I did find the rebuttal of your study.
http://vapeaboutit.com/that-effects...-study-is-filled-with-misleading-information/
Regards
mike

 

[Vapntime]

How so? Your study said dose dependent. What was the dose?
I did find the rebuttal of your study.
http://vapeaboutit.com/that-effects...-study-is-filled-with-misleading-information/
Regards
mike

Yes, it is a rebuttal but not a peer review.
From the rebuttal "Disclaimer: I am not a doctor, nor a scientist. The above expressed views are those of mine only. Please read the study to make your own conclusion."
I hope he is right. However, the study is not about cell death as implied by the rebuttal.

 

[skoony]

Yes, it is a rebuttal but not a peer review.
From the rebuttal "Disclaimer: I am not a doctor, nor a scientist. The above expressed views are those of mine only. Please read the study to make your own conclusion."
I hope he is right. However, the study is not about cell death as implied by the rebuttal.

"Researchers are saying nicotine at sufficient concentrations did not trigger cell necrosis (death). In other words, nicotine does not kill your lung cells."
Where does this say he is claiming researchers claimed nicotine causes call death? Not here.
Nor here.
"Once again, researchers are admitting to using a high concentration of nicotine (exact amount not shown) and applying the “relatively high concentration” to cells in cultures. They go on to say that they ensured the nicotine effect on the lung barrier cells was not due to cell toxicity/necrosis, or cell death. However, they don’t show the data."
Regards
Mike

 

[Jman8]

We are all unique individuals with our own minds who has taken the information we have about diketones and made our own decisions. We are merely SHARING OUR THOUGHTS, not here to create fear mongering or to partake in ANTZ rhetoric (seriously some really need to grow up).

Some of us have, and don't resort to FUD to help make our points regarding vaping.

I think it's unfortunate that some have chosen to take that route in responding to some post. Thing is, one could reverse that view and turn it back around on those doing it. The fact that some refuse to acknowledge that diketones are without doubt a health concern,

If there is no doubt about diketones as a health concern for vaping, then show me the cases where it has been an issue for the vaper. I'm sure you'll have a long list given your rhetoric about it being beyond doubt. I mean just one case would show that it is reason to not be a little doubtful. I'll be waiting.

yet refuse to accept that it does play a part in vaping given it's presence in some flavors shows denial and insecurity..... which as we have all seen has resulted in an intolerance for others views because of their denial and insecurities. The intolerance comes when labels start flying..not because you simply express diketones are not a concern for you in regards to vaping them.

The denials come from honestly and accurately looking at the spectrum of vapers around and then observing the reality of diketone dangers among the current vaping population. If it were say 5% of all vapers, then those saying "nope, not a problem at all" would be in denial. But as it is close to 0% (if not actually, zero cases), then those claiming "it is without a doubt a health concern" are the ones in denial. It is same as anti-freeze scare or claims of "just as bad as smoking." When that is your message and you are wanting to engage in debate, it be wise to separate emotional rhetoric and purely personal choice from any points of "industry needs to change its path due to this viable health concern." As stated in earlier post I wrote, if it were only, "this is not something I want" then likely no debate. But when it crosses over into, "nobody should want this, as this is just dangerous," then well, be prepared to back that up with more than just emotion.

There are those who want to vape as safe as possible, then there are those who refuse to accept that there could be any harm associated with vaping...for me, the later is the one who is overly consumed with things that are not a priority when it comes to my health. I don't care about the ANTZ nor do i care about those who oppose vaping. I will not resist or deny anything at the expense of my health just to push back against them. Some want to make this a toggle war, for me my health comes first regardless if the other side happens to be right on something. I have seen it time and time again, a red flag gets raised and discussed and here comes the one's to base their denial on the ANTZ winning a round, and not on exercising a concern for their health first and foremost.

So, it is either you are vaping as safe as possible or you frame vaping as entirely harmless? And this is how we can justify the diketone "concern?" Could say same thing about nicotine. Either you vape as safe as possible (meaning without any nicotine), or you are in denial and only think of vaping as entirely harmless. Cause I heard vaping nicotine will make your arms fall off in 30 years. There is no doubting this will happen. It is a legitimate concern, and thus everyone should be vaping without nicotine to be as safe as possible. Ask me to back this up, and I'll tell you that you'll see 30 years from now just how right we are about this concern, but that industry must change and get rid of nicotine or risk killing all its consumers by making them armless. Who wants that?

We know their have been documented cases in the food industry and factories...we also know diketones are in flavors we vape. We know Dr. F and Kurt have voiced their positions on diketones as well...trusted individuals who are a friend to this community. They say they don't need to be there AT ALL and it's a unnecessary risk. Those of us with concerns are not basing our concerns on unfounded emotional responses and fear mongering...we have a good reason for having them. Do we know what role diketones play when vaping them...no...but we do know they are present and have caused health problems in other industries where cooks and factory workers have been exposed to them on a daily bases, we just don't know how that translates to vaping it. I don't care that vapers have not fallen over left and right from vaping it, nor do i want to be one to find out if that will come over a duration of time either. I will fight the good fight to preserve vaping, but i will not turn a blind eye and put on rose glasses at the expense of my own health all in the name to push back against the ANTZ just because they may score a few points on a possible harm that is completely avoidable anyway related to vaping.

We also know that nicotine has caused problems in human history and that it is used as a pesticide (to kill).

We also know that vapers have bragged often and in great numbers about vaping flavors, about being way more healthy than they were as smokers, about having lung tests to establish that they are more healthy, all during the diketone-rich era. I would call it entirely reasonable that due to wide array of flavor options in vaping is reason (#1) that vaping is better received than smoking. Not the only reason, but the #1 reason. It is possible to still have great variety of flavors, and not have diketones, and that is a great thing for those with personal concern. It does leave room for questions that even Dr. F. and Kurt have spoken to, as in "we don't know that the alternatives are without problems." But the real issue is understanding the actual degree of actual harm to the vapers by vaping diketones in eLiquid. In the other industries, problematic cases had symptoms occur within 18 months (or less) from exposure. Vaping has been around for 7 years and please remind us how many cases of (serious) lung damage there have been to vapers in that time frame.

 

[Jman8]

I think you Pretty Much Nailed it right there.

It seems that with some people, everything is All or Nothing, Black or White, Either you are For Us or you are Against Us. There is No Middle Ground.

For the diketone free crowd, it is all or nothing. Their response is "nothing" as in no diketones is the only righteous path. For those of us taking on their arguments in open public forum, it is any and all of the following:
- if you have personal concern about diketones, find vendors that match what it is you say you want. There are at least some, and the choice for none is legitimate and no one is stopping you. Please be happy with what it is you want to vape.
- if you are unsure about the concern or perhaps clueless (but just learned about it today), then just realize that data after first 7 years of vaping has produced zero cases of serious lung damage to vapers. The concern for diketone damage would plausibly manifest in 18 months, or less, and thus it is reasonable to consider that it is a non-issue for vapers. Especially considering that many vapers are ex-smokers and have been inhaling diketones (among 3999 other chemicals) for decades and the specific condition associated with inhalation of diketones has not been diagnosed as something that is a known problem for smokers.
- no one is saying vaping is harmless. If you find someone like that, see what other products on this planet they would also deem harmless. That ought to be interesting considering there are exactly zero products that are harmless.
- because of the concern (and even fear mongering), the free market / industry will likely change, but it won't be all or nothing. There will likely be a great many companies that stick with diketone laced eLiquid for various reasons, but near the top is the FACT that this has not impacted any vapers thus far in human history.
- it'll also take time for things to change in a dramatic way because of the whole deeming regulations. That adds a very huge wrench into things as businesses first need to see that to determine if their 5 year plan for staying in business is even realistic, or they will essentially be forced to exit the market due to zealous regulations, designed in part to make smaller companies leave the market. Therefore, if selling lots of eLiquid, that tastes great and has lots of buyers right now, but has more than trace amount of diketones, it would be wise to continue on that course in the free market. There will be the all or nothing types that think this is very bad, and may even wish you an early exit, but they are essentially anti-free market and are literally only looking out for their agenda. The one based on over emotional hyped up, non observational, data.

 

[zoiDman]

...

- because of the concern (and even fear mongering), the free market / industry will likely change, but it won't be all or nothing. There will likely be a great many companies that stick with diketone laced eLiquid for various reasons, but near the top is the FACT that this has not impacted any vapers thus far in human history.
- it'll also take time for things to change in a dramatic way because of the whole deeming regulations. That adds a very huge wrench into things as businesses first need to see that to determine if their 5 year plan for staying in business is even realistic, or they will essentially be forced to exit the market due to zealous regulations, designed in part to make smaller companies leave the market. Therefore, if selling lots of eLiquid, that tastes great and has lots of buyers right now, but has more than trace amount of diketones, it would be wise to continue on that course in the free market. There will be the all or nothing types that think this is very bad, and may even wish you an early exit, but they are essentially anti-free market and are literally only looking out for their agenda. The one based on over emotional hyped up, non observational, data.

I just Don't Think you Understand how a Post FDA Deemed market is Going to work. And your Thinking is somehow Stuck in a "Free Market" where OEM's can put anything they want into an e-Liquid.

Diketones aren't going to be in any FDA Approved e-Liquids.