Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside
- Thread starter Vapey_McVape
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Ya think they can learn to squonk too?
I wonder if a study of diketone-laden e-vapor vapor is done on rats, whether some here will insist that the test doesn't accurately reflect our exposure when vaping, or that human lungs aren't the same as rat lungs.
Until viable, conclusive and repeatable testing is done, this entire argument is like arguing about God. Neither side can prove that they are conclusively right or that the other is wrong.
Same way you get them to smoke ciggs. Wait until after they get their rat nasty on and then offer them a vape afterwards.
How do you get the rats to vape?
Same way you get them to smoke ciggs. Wait until after they get their rat nasty on and then offer them a vape afterwards.
Ya think they can learn to squonk too?
I wonder if a study of diketone-laden e-vapor vapor is done on rats, whether some here will insist that the test doesn't accurately reflect our exposure when vaping, or that human lungs aren't the same as rat lungs.
I think for a Very Small segment of members here, that No Amount of Scientific Evidence would ever be Enough.
I agree more research is needed but i don't think suspending diketones in PG and VG actually alters the chemicals in any way as far as presumable health impacts.....
So unless i'm missing something you issue with this all is you think that by mixing diketones in PG and VG that they should be less harmful or harmless correct??
I suspect the hypothesis is that vapor droplets do not penetrate deeply enough into the lungs to allow the diketones suspended in those droplets to do much damage. My personal guess is that whether this is true or not depends greatly on vaping style. If you're a MTl tootle-puffer like me who hardly pulls any vapor into their lungs, your lung cells probably don't get as much exposure to the whatever nasties might be in e-vapor as someone who's doing direct, full-lung inhales at 100W.
I think this parallels the situation with smoked tobacco, where pipe and cigar smoke (which traditionally weren't inhaled much at all) were considered considerably less hazardous (lower mortality and incidence of smoking-related diseases) than cigarette smoke (which was normally inhaled considerably more deeply). I doubt this was due to cigar or pipe smoke actually being less hazardous per se.
A competing Theory is that Diketones that are in VG/PG Suspension are more Readily absorbed because the VG/PG adheres to Body Tissues.
Whereas Diketone fumes in air have no such Adhesion.
I do not think it alters the chemicals in any significant way. All the studies concerning
Diacetyl have been done with Diacetyl alone dispersed more or less in the air. One of
the reason PG and VG were used first in medical inhalers and now in e-cigs is because
other things can be dispersed and suspended evenly in them and the dispersion will be
maintained more or less over a period of time before separation occurs. This allows
for an even dosage of whatever is suspended in them.
The problem as I see it is how the diacetyl disassociates itself from being suspended
in the mix and become free floating in the air in sufficient quantities to cause harm or,
would it remain suspended in the viscous liquid droplets and be absorbed naturally as
the PG and VG are?
Regards
Mike
fair enough but if Diketone fumes are being breathed in at say 6X safe levels (which i understand some ejuices have) I think is fair to say contact with lung tissue is inevitable regardless at unsafe levels. Also as Rossum points out direct inhalation is rather different to just free floating chemicals in the air as far as exposure go its substantial worse even if just MTL
I'm not sure. If you spend 8 hours in a room that has a concentration diketones then that's what every part of your lungs are exposed to, once the air in the deepest parts of your lungs has equalized with the air in that room. How long that takes probably varies with how deeply you're breathing, i.e. your exertion level. In any case it's probably on the order of minutes, not seconds or hours, because every breath you take contains that concentration.
I've never met a vaper who inhales vapor with every breath he takes. Even people who ostensibly chain-vape do take some breaths of just air, don't they? If so, that air reduces the average concentration a vaper's lungs are exposed to.
BTW, I'm not defending diketones. Personally, I try to avoid them despite the fact that I vape MTl (and there's a reason the 'l' is lower-case). I'm just wondering out loud whether it's actually possible to do an animal study that's truly representative of vaping.
I've never met a vaper who inhales vapor with every breath he takes. Even people who ostensibly chain-vape do take some breaths of just air, don't they? If so, that air reduces the average concentration a vaper's lungs are exposed to.
BTW, I'm not defending diketones. Personally, I try to avoid them despite the fact that I vape MTl (and there's a reason the 'l' is lower-case). I'm just wondering out loud whether it's actually possible to do an animal study that's truly representative of vaping.
??? dont get it, you have tiny lungs?? You dont breath much in??
Sure just put a mask on them or stick a tub down there throat and pump there lungs full vapour every now and then its a bit cruel but scientist hate mice
Otherwise place them in a small container flood it with vapour for say 10 secs then fill it with air.......
But im not 100% sure how these experiments would help in spotting long term damage if it only beings to appear after a few years or do diketones have short term notable impacts??
IMO the only good new is people have been vapin for a little while diketones and i have not hear off any reports of anyone suffering from them so presumably if there are any impacts they will be long term.....
I believe it could be done if their intent was to do just that. The hardest part would be to
establish a base line average. I would suggest simulating a typical ego/vision/evod set up
as the vast majority of vapers use these type devices. If definitive results are obtained it
then can be determined what direction further study should head. If the study shows harm
being done then lower the exposure to see if a lower threshold can be found. If the study
indicates no presence of harm then increase the exposure to see if a threshold of harm can
be established. Another thing I see as a problem is how long a study like this should run as
everyone would say it "may" take 20 years or more of exposure. Then we're right back to square
one. I think a 3 to 6 month study should indicate potential problems at the cellular level.
This may be sufficient to at least make an assessment.
regards
Mike
I actually have pretty large lung capacity, but I don't inhale my vape deeply at all, so very little vapor makes its way into my lungs. In other words, I vape in a manner similar to how a traditional pipe or cigar smoker would smoke.
IIRC, some of the factory workers who came down with popcorn lung did so after only 6-18 months, so from that perspective, I think it is feasible to study it. The question in my mind is just how representative any animal study will be of actual vaping (and what style of vaping).
No i don't think the concerns are being blown out of proportion.
Kurt said to listen to our bodies and when i switched from flavoring to non-flavoring i did not realize how much irritation flavoring was causing my lungs. I bought the old "it's just from smoking and your lungs are healing lines"... Well no it wasn't because if that was the case my lungs would still be irritated regardless if i am vaping flavors or not.
It was Kurts posts in this thread that prompted me to try vaping without flavor and that is how i discovered the culprit. Aside from vaping a favorite every now and then as a treat..i just stay away from flavoring altogether now. Thing is all the flavors i was vaping were tested and diketone free...so there is something more going on with flavors in general as far as i am concerned. I certainly don't need a slew of studies or documented vapers having problems to tell me something is just not right with vaping flavors...my lungs already answered that for me.
Course that is just me, a COPD sufferer, and where my verdict stands on the matter right now. It may be that flavoring may only be a problem for some like me who already have respiratory problems. Still i find that concerning regardless given many vapers are x-smokers.
Kurt said to listen to our bodies and when i switched from flavoring to non-flavoring i did not realize how much irritation flavoring was causing my lungs. I bought the old "it's just from smoking and your lungs are healing lines"... Well no it wasn't because if that was the case my lungs would still be irritated regardless if i am vaping flavors or not.
It was Kurts posts in this thread that prompted me to try vaping without flavor and that is how i discovered the culprit. Aside from vaping a favorite every now and then as a treat..i just stay away from flavoring altogether now. Thing is all the flavors i was vaping were tested and diketone free...so there is something more going on with flavors in general as far as i am concerned. I certainly don't need a slew of studies or documented vapers having problems to tell me something is just not right with vaping flavors...my lungs already answered that for me.
Course that is just me, a COPD sufferer, and where my verdict stands on the matter right now. It may be that flavoring may only be a problem for some like me who already have respiratory problems. Still i find that concerning regardless given many vapers are x-smokers.
I think for a fairly significant segment of the vaping members (that are here for more than info on equipment or doing the social forum thing) that fear mongering claims by anyone will work for them. If it is type of claims that are substantiated with "research has found" then that will be enough to have that be the dominant consideration in any argument going forward.
Because the "only good news" is the only actual news we have when it comes to vaping and the diketone scare. All other considerations at this point are conjecture. The other side has to concede to the ANTZ position of "we just don't know" (if vaping is not harmful) as well as "we have no idea what the long term effects are" (but safe to assume that it is perhaps very dangerous).
Thus, it ain't really science that we are basing our current knowledge (or conjecture) with regard to diketones scare. For surely science has shown that all ex-smoking vapers have been inhaling large amounts of diketones for however long they were a smoker. To then assume that it will take long term vaping to make the difference and make it so the diketone concerned crowd has something more than fear to back up their emotional, overhyped concern, is NOT what science is purporting.
In essence of current reality, it is no different than saying that inhalation of nicotine from vaping will possibly/likely make your arms fall off. Not that it will do that today, but it could happen tomorrow and might for sure happen in the long term. And we can substantiate this sort of claim by noting that vaping nicotine is nothing like smoking / inhaling nicotine, and therefore we need long term data to know for sure, but to be safe in the immediate term, it would be best to not vape nicotine.
Then get a whole bunch of people who believe that vaping nicotine will cause your arms to fall off within the next 30 years. And also to claim that their concern is not blown out of proportion, just because there are currently zero cases of people vaping nicotine and their arms haven't fallen off.
That is where we stand right now with the diketone scare.
The one where clearly things are overblown.
The good news is when 30 year magical number rolls around and no significant issues are found, this crowd will claim it is because of their concerns and hard work 30 years earlier. Kinda like how ANTZ can take credit right now for less smoking in society, given all the hard work and great concern they have for humanity.
We are all unique individuals with our own minds who has taken the information we have about diketones and made our own decisions. We are merely SHARING OUR THOUGHTS, not here to create fear mongering or to partake in ANTZ rhetoric (seriously some really need to grow up). I think it's unfortunate that some have chosen to take that route in responding to some post. Thing is, one could reverse that view and turn it back around on those doing it. The fact that some refuse to acknowledge that diketones are without doubt a health concern, yet refuse to accept that it does play a part in vaping given it's presence in some flavors shows denial and insecurity..... which as we have all seen has resulted in an intolerance for others views because of their denial and insecurities. The intolerance comes when labels start flying..not because you simply express diketones are not a concern for you in regards to vaping them.
There are those who want to vape as safe as possible, then there are those who refuse to accept that there could be any harm associated with vaping...for me, the later is the one who is overly consumed with things that are not a priority when it comes to my health. I don't care about the ANTZ nor do i care about those who oppose vaping. I will not resist or deny anything at the expense of my health just to push back against them. Some want to make this a toggle war, for me my health comes first regardless if the other side happens to be right on something. I have seen it time and time again, a red flag gets raised and discussed and here comes the one's to base their denial on the ANTZ winning a round, and not on exercising a concern for their health first and foremost.
We know their have been documented cases in the food industry and factories...we also know diketones are in flavors we vape. We know Dr. F and Kurt have voiced their positions on diketones as well...trusted individuals who are a friend to this community. They say they don't need to be there AT ALL and it's a unnecessary risk. Those of us with concerns are not basing our concerns on unfounded emotional responses and fear mongering...we have a good reason for having them. Do we know what role diketones play when vaping them...no...but we do know they are present and have caused health problems in other industries where cooks and factory workers have been exposed to them on a daily bases, we just don't know how that translates to vaping it. I don't care that vapers have not fallen over left and right from vaping it, nor do i want to be one to find out if that will come over a duration of time either. I will fight the good fight to preserve vaping, but i will not turn a blind eye and put on rose glasses at the expense of my own health all in the name to push back against the ANTZ just because they may score a few points on a possible harm that is completely avoidable anyway related to vaping.
There are those who want to vape as safe as possible, then there are those who refuse to accept that there could be any harm associated with vaping...for me, the later is the one who is overly consumed with things that are not a priority when it comes to my health. I don't care about the ANTZ nor do i care about those who oppose vaping. I will not resist or deny anything at the expense of my health just to push back against them. Some want to make this a toggle war, for me my health comes first regardless if the other side happens to be right on something. I have seen it time and time again, a red flag gets raised and discussed and here comes the one's to base their denial on the ANTZ winning a round, and not on exercising a concern for their health first and foremost.
We know their have been documented cases in the food industry and factories...we also know diketones are in flavors we vape. We know Dr. F and Kurt have voiced their positions on diketones as well...trusted individuals who are a friend to this community. They say they don't need to be there AT ALL and it's a unnecessary risk. Those of us with concerns are not basing our concerns on unfounded emotional responses and fear mongering...we have a good reason for having them. Do we know what role diketones play when vaping them...no...but we do know they are present and have caused health problems in other industries where cooks and factory workers have been exposed to them on a daily bases, we just don't know how that translates to vaping it. I don't care that vapers have not fallen over left and right from vaping it, nor do i want to be one to find out if that will come over a duration of time either. I will fight the good fight to preserve vaping, but i will not turn a blind eye and put on rose glasses at the expense of my own health all in the name to push back against the ANTZ just because they may score a few points on a possible harm that is completely avoidable anyway related to vaping.
I can't speak for others. I have always acknowledged that diketones may be a potential (not actual) health concern.
Popcorn lung (OB) was and is an extremely rare form of lung disease with less than 30 cases ever having been diagnosed
in non-lung transplant patients. Most cases that were diagnosed with popcorn lung occurred between the late ninety's
through the early two thousands with the exception of two cases diagnosed this past year in workers at a coffee roasting
plant in Texas. All but two case occurred in in a commercial industrial setting. Prior to the late ninety's and after the early two
thousands popcorn lung has not been a factor aside from the two cases again in an industrial commercial setting. So I ask,where are all the sick vapers? There should be some now. Where are all the sick smokers? there is way more diketones in cigarettes
than is found in juice containing the highest amount of diketones. I have done a lot of reading up on popcorn lung as
to when,where and, how it likely occurred. I came to the conclusion that much if not all of this concern over
diketones, diacetyl in particular although may having a potential for harm (not actual harm) it certainly doesn't
mean that everyone should be testing for it voluntarily or by government fiat. For this I have been accused of
condemning my fellow vapers to a horrifying death from OB. So whom is in denial and showing insecurity?
Your consern for your personal health is admirable however it does not trump my wish to have vaping regulated
out of existence for some thing that "might" happen twenty years down the road. There is a better chance of
vaping to be quite safe having maybe negligible health concerns than posing serious health risks 20 years down
the road.
No one has said they are in fact a risk when used in e-juice. Some have acknowledged them as a potential risk
(not actual) that could and or should be avoided with out actually having evidence that in fact they are causing
harm.
Regards
Mike
I can't speak for others. I have always acknowledged that diketones may be a potential (not actual) health concern.
Popcorn lung (OB) was and is an extremely rare form of lung disease with less than 30 cases ever having been diagnosed
in non-lung transplant patients. Most cases that were diagnosed with popcorn lung occurred between the late ninety's
through the early two thousands with the exception of two cases diagnosed this past year in workers at a coffee roasting
plant in Texas. All but two case occurred in in a commercial industrial setting. Prior to the late ninety's and after the early two
thousands popcorn lung has not been a factor aside from the two cases again in an industrial commercial setting. So I ask,where are all the sick vapers? There should be some now. Where are all the sick smokers? there is way more diketones in cigarettes
than is found in juice containing the highest amount of diketones. I have done a lot of reading up on popcorn lung as
to when,where and, how it likely occurred. I came to the conclusion that much if not all of this concern over
diketones, diacetyl in particular although may having a potential for harm (not actual harm) it certainly doesn't
mean that everyone should be testing for it voluntarily or by government fiat. For this I have been accused of
condemning my fellow vapers to a horrifying death from OB. So whom is in denial and showing insecurity?
Your consern for your personal health is admirable however it does not trump my wish to have vaping regulated
out of existence for some thing that "might" happen twenty years down the road. There is a better chance of
vaping to be quite safe having maybe negligible health concerns than posing serious health risks 20 years down
the road.
No one has said they are in fact a risk when used in e-juice. Some have acknowledged them as a potential risk
(not actual) that could and or should be avoided with out actually having evidence that in fact they are causing
harm.
Regards
Mike
We know the harm is real in factory workers and those who work in the food industry...now if that is not enough to concern you with vaping the stuff then that is your choice. My point was those who go around labeling people as fear mongers and partaking in ANTZ rhetoric or being a ANTZ for having concerns...not those who have looked at the information and simply sharing their verdict on the matter. Also, why does the damage always come down to OB? if it can cause OB it can cause a whole host of other problems as well which should be equally concerning all the same..it's just OB is among the worst outcomes. I respect your verdict as you have weighted the information and come to a conclusion and shared it...and did so without immature label slinging which is appreciated.
I've have been labeled myself. Didn't you know that I am totally heartless and, have no compassion nor
concern for my fellow vapers?
Regards
Mike
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