Is this what wil replace vaping if FDA has it's way?

[JustMeB]

I saw this article, never heard of these things. Apparently they are a new design of an older product from BT.

What Is a Heat-Not-Burn Cigarette and Can It Help You Quit?

 

[Maiar]

I dunno... there's still tobacco in there. So my guess would be there's still more chemicals than vaping. Not going to lie though, those would have tempted me to try back at the start of vaping when I was more concerned with getting as close to the smoking experience as possible. Now though, I'm more into vaping and don't really care for the whole smoking experience anymore.

 

[Maiar]

And after reading the whole thing, it looks like it's just a hookah in a really small frame. And having used a hookah a bunch, it sure doesn't feel any safer than smoking tobacco.

 

[Stubby]

And after reading the whole thing, it looks like it's just a hookah in a really small frame. And having used a hookah a bunch, it sure doesn't feel any safer than smoking tobacco.

The idea of heat not burn has been around for some time and is a legitimate tobacco harm reduction approach. Heat not burn is nothing like a hookah.

There is no reason to believe these are more harmful then vaping. It actually is a form of vaping as the nicotine in the tobacco is vaporized below the point of combustion. It is simply using a whole tobacco product rather then extracted nicotine. Tobacco is not what causes issues. It's the smoke that kills, not tobacco.

 

[JustMeB]

I was just wondering on people's thoughts. Seeing the FDA wants to ban anything from 2007 on up, and these were out before that, or rather, the product was, but the design has changed. I wondered why BT never did anything beyond Blu or something like that as far as vaping goes.

 

[csardaz]

Seems about 20 years ago? My sister lived in an area that was a test market for one of these. You light a little pointed charcoal. I don't know if it had nicotine embedded in the charcoal or if it was baking nearby tobacco. They never sold them where I lived. They were harder to light and often weren't extinguished when you thought they were out. Didn't have much taste and the smoke(?) was barely visible. My sister got them cheap and cut down on real cigs but never stopped the real cigs. She did stop cigs when she got an Ego type device last Christmas.

There was another type I read about that actually evaporated liquid nicotine without any heat. They packed the capsule inside tobacco and paper in order for it to categorize as a cigarette instead of 'unknown' but the tobacco wasn't actually involved in its operation, just a filler and a means of qualifying as 'cigarette'.

I think the substantial equivilance to, and grandfathering of products from before the grandfather date requires that you supply invoices showing it was actually for sale on/about the required date. So a test-marketing from earlier years may not qualify.

 

[SPeteW]

The idea of heat not burn has been around for some time and is a legitimate tobacco harm reduction approach. Heat not burn is nothing like a hookah.

There is no reason to believe these are more harmful then vaping. It actually is a form of vaping as the nicotine in the tobacco is vaporized below the point of combustion. It is simply using a whole tobacco product rather then extracted nicotine. Tobacco is not what causes issues. It's the smoke that kills, not tobacco.

The tobacco leaf will contain TSNAs which is linked to cancer related problems. That is why swedish Snuss is less harmful then BT snuss, it has very low levels of TSNAs. Although heating the leaf should be harm reduction to burning it, especially if there are no additives. Technically this is still vaporizing, just of the dry variety, that is already in use for other leaves.

 

[Stubby]

The tobacco leaf will contain TSNAs which is linked to cancer related problems. That is why swedish Snuss is less harmful then BT snuss, it has very low levels of TSNAs. Although heating the leaf should be harm reduction to burning it, especially if there are no additives. Technically this is still vaporizing, just of the dry variety, that is already in use for other leaves.

Swedish snus does not have lower TSNA levels compared to american made snus. I am not at all saying they are equal in quality, but as far as health risk it is very unlikely the US made snus is any more risky then Swedish. I will take it a step farther and say american smokeless tobacco in general has essentially the same low risk as Swedish snus. There is a good amount of population studies to back that up.

As far as those of us interested in tobacco harm reduction, there are only two categories; combustion and non-combustion. The difference in risk between non-combusted tobacco/nicotine products is so trivial it is nothing more then splitting hairs. Stay away from smoke and your on the good side of tobacco and nicotine, no matter what form it may take.

If you can't stay away from the smoke, at least don't inhale it.

 

[Oliver]

As far as those of us interested in tobacco harm reduction, there are only two categories; combustion and non-combustion. The difference in risk between non-combusted tobacco/nicotine products is so trivial it is nothing more then splitting hairs. Stay away from smoke and your on the good side of tobacco and nicotine, no matter what form it may take.

I agree with the overall sentiment - but not specifically with this notion that there are only two categories - you've omitted partial combustion. I have no idea whether partial combustion occurs with HnB devices, but if it does I wouldn't venture to suggest that they're in the same reduced-harm category as chew/dip/snus/vaping etc

We might find that the continuum of harm (which exists currently as a "cliff of harm"- i.e. combustion versus non-combustion) is actually created by HnB.

 

[Oliver]

Also, we still don't know whether MRTP applications are ever going to be successful (waiting on the Swedish Match case), but imagine a scenario in which, say, iQos is approved as MRTP, but no vaping products are.

Not an impossibility, given that HnB is going to be monopolised by the TI. Ploom is now owned by JTI, PMI/Altria have launched iQos in test markets, and Reynolds is reviving Premier. I doubt vaping devices will ever be submitted, as the market's too fractured for it to be a commercial advantage for anyone to do the research/submission.

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

No

See: Barbarians at the Gate (HBO, 1993)--
This movie is about F.Ross Johnson's unsuccessful attempt to take over RJR Nabisco and the development of the PREMIER smokeless cigarette.


1st Scientist: [talking about the smokeless Premier cigarette survey] Well of all the people we surveyed the results were just about uniform

F. Ross Johnson: Uh huh.

Edward A. Horrigan Jr.: They all said they tasted like S#!T

F. Ross Johnson: Like S#!T?

2nd Scientist:S#!T was the consensus, yes sir.

F. Ross Johnson: They all said that? Nobody liked them?

2nd Scientist: Fewer than 5%

F. Ross Johnson: You said the results were gonna be terrific

Edward A. Horrigan Jr.: Well there's nothing wrong with 5%, Ross, I'll take 5% of the market anytime of the week

F. Ross Johnson: How much are we into right now?

1st Scientist: Right now?

F. Ross Johnson: To date, to here, to now?

1st Scientist: Upwards of 350.

F. Ross Johnson: We've spent 350 million dollars and we come up with a turd with a tip? God almighty, Ed! We put enough technology in this project to send a cigarette to the moon and we come up with one that tastes like it took a dump?

Edward A. Horrigan Jr.: We haven't even talked about the smell.

F. Ross Johnson: Oh what did they say that was like? A fart?

Edward A. Horrigan Jr.: Yep.

F. Ross Johnson: Oh you're not serious! They really said that?

2nd Scientist: We have an awful lot of fart figures.

F. Ross Johnson: Tastes like S#!T and smells like a fart! Got ourselves one hell of a product on our hands it's one unique advertising strategy I'll tell ya that.

 

[Kent C]

No

See: Barbarians at the Gate (HBO, 1993)--
This movie is about F.Ross Johnson's unsuccessful attempt to take over RJR Nabisco and the development of the PREMIER smokeless cigarette.

Great dialogue written by comedy writer Larry Gelbert who wrote for Bob Hope, Sid Caesar and wrote many MASH scripts.

“‘Barbarians at the Gate’ is a good piece of work. It just proved to me my own axiom of ‘Always take on something you don’t think you can do.’ Always be afraid of the source material. I was afraid of that because I can’t make change of two fives for ten – or is it three fives for ten – and I had to learn what that was about before I could write it. I was very pleased with how it turned out.” (Gelbart, IGN)

 

[Oliver]

Some time ago, I mooted the notion that even were e-cigarettes not to increase any further in the market, they would already have made an important change: they would have instilled in the minds of millions of smokers the notion of harm reduction - a concept that the ANTZ have spent years trying to hide.

Well, I'd suggest that this exactly what we're seeing with Reynolds Premier reintroduction: the product's never really gone away, it's just been unavailable for most smokers. Reynolds are riding on the back of the vape revolution.

And, if the quoted scientist is correct that less than 5% of smokers liked the product, that's still a hell of a lot of people, and a clear market for them. With a public that's looking for alternatives to smoking, they may well be very successful indeed. We might find that more people 'persevere' than when they were introduced in the late 80s and become regular users.

 

[WorksForMe]

And, if the quoted scientist is correct that less than 5% of smokers liked the product, that's still a hell of a lot of people, and a clear market for them. With a public that's looking for alternatives to smoking, they may well be very successful indeed. We might find that more people 'persevere' than when they were introduced in the late 80s and become regular users.

If I read Krashman's post right, less than 5% of the people liked the taste of this product. They've had 25 years to improve that. It wouldn't be very hard to add a little flavoring to the tobacco.

If the HnB products taste decent, and are easy to buy and use, they could be very successful. Especially if they are one the very few products left on the market after the smoke clears at the FDA.

 

[Kent C]

Some time ago, I mooted the notion that even were e-cigarettes not to increase any further in the market, they would already have made an important change: they would have instilled in the minds of millions of smokers the notion of harm reduction - a concept that the ANTZ have spent years trying to hide.

Well, I'd suggest that this exactly what we're seeing with Reynolds Premier reintroduction: the product's never really gone away, it's just been unavailable for most smokers. Reynolds are riding on the back of the vape revolution.

And, if the quoted scientist is correct that less than 5% of smokers liked the product, that's still a hell of a lot of people, and a clear market for them. With a public that's looking for alternatives to smoking, they may well be very successful indeed. We might find that more people 'persevere' than when they were introduced in the late 80s and become regular users.

Regarding 'bold' - I think you got that backwards - the THR aspect of Premiere predates ecigs. Their newer products are a different issue.

As for the "quotes" of a comedy writer in a movie, we don't know what was actually said, and I'm not sure if RJR ever made the actual surveys available. (I looked

 

[Oliver]

Well, the way I understood it was that the new product is exactly the same as the old one, primarily due to PMTA. I've also been informed that they will be using the same advertising as before - the "stick with it, even if it tastes disgusting at first: you'll get used to it"! - which doesn't make it sound like an updated product! And the Premier has never gone away - it's been available to Reynolds staff, and some retail locations.

I may well be misled here - I cannot remember the source right now.

On the quotes, I've never seen the movie but I have read the book, and the quotes rang a bell so I assumed they were lifted directly from the book. But my main point was just that a product doesn't need to capture much of this market to be a big seller.

I had a pint with the CEO of Voke a little while back and he said: look, if you get 1% of the smoking market, you're bigger than Advil! (well, he actually said Nurofen, the British ibuprofen brand equivalent).

Regarding 'bold' - I think you got that backwards - the THR aspect of Premiere predates ecigs. Their newer products are a different issue.

As for the "quotes" of a comedy writer in a movie, we don't know what was actually said, and I'm not sure if RJR ever made the actual surveys available. (I looked

 

[Oliver]

Also - on THR: yes, Premier and many other non-smoked products have been around for years, and some unknowable number of users have consciously moved over to them for HR purposes.

But only those who know about THR. THR is, I would contend, as much of a "communication intervention" as it is a matter of having THR products available. The scandal is that the communication has been so totally denied by ANTZ groups over the years. Put another way, it's a conversation smokers are having that they weren't having 10 years ago in quite the same way.

So, my point is: vaping has let the "cat out of the bag" - millions of smokers are now aware that there are, or should be (if they're not convinced about the current crop of products) available.

 

[Kent C]

Well, the way I understood it was that the new product is exactly the same as the old one, primarily due to PMTA. I've also been informed that they will be using the same advertising as before - the "stick with it, even if it tastes disgusting at first: you'll get used to it"! - which doesn't make it sound like an updated product! And the Premier has never gone away - it's been available to Reynolds staff, and some retail locations.

I may well be misled here - I cannot remember the source right now.

On the quotes, I've never seen the movie but I have read the book, and the quotes rang a bell so I assumed they were lifted directly from the book. But my main point was just that a product doesn't need to capture much of this market to be a big seller.

The Eclipse is the 'updated' Premier and is a bit different. (although there may be some Premiers still around as you say).The biggest complaint regarding the Premier was a charcoal taste, although those who used sulfur based matches got some sulfur transfer. The quotes are from the movie not the book, although there are references to the studies made in the book, of course. It was written by "investigative" journalists, not 'biographers' of Ross Johnson.

 

[Oliver]

Thanks for the info, Kent.

 

[jtpjc]

See: Barbarians at the Gate (HBO, 1993)--
This movie is about F.Ross Johnson's unsuccessful attempt to take over RJR Nabisco and the development of the PREMIER smokeless cigarette.

F. Ross Johnson: Tastes like S#!T and smells like a fart! Got ourselves one hell of a product on our hands it's one unique advertising strategy I'll tell ya that.

Just watched it. Liked this movie, thank you for mentioning it.