Is vaping more dangerous than we think?

[mattiem]

alien Traveler" data-source="post: 17046009" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

I think near nothing documented concerning vaping. I believe it is irritant (throat hit, for example). In cigarettes (may be) it was impossible to separate effects of smoke and nicotine by itself.

True and in this case it is impossible to separate effects of nicotine and flavorings unless one vapes unflavored. My hubby is the perfect example of how some/most flavors are irritants to some folks. Anything over a few drops of any flavor in his e-liquid makes his throat sore. Some are just more prone to the effects than others.

 

[Falconeer]

I ask myself - how come we seem to have a spate of new members with Horror Stories - have we got an Invasion of the Trolls we ask?

 

[skoony]

The problem with vaping is the possibility that more and more people will do it, on the unproven basis that it's safe. More and more nonsmokers, anyway. People who may have never inhaled anything but air (although how clean is that these days, haha). For smokers, however, vaping is a fantastic alternative. Most ex smokers seem to feel considerably better after the switch, which says a lot.

With fruit loops cereal and jolly rancher flavors out there, however, it appeals to everyone. Whenever I vape, people around me want to try it, they smell the flavors and see the process of it all. For some reason people seem to like "smoke" in their lungs. And most all of us enjoy flavors. Fortunately, most of these people (in my experiences) decide to opt out of actively getting into vaping, because they realize it's an unknown risk. And I also actively persuade them not to unless they already smoke cigs.

There is no doubt that vaping has to potential to cause damage to our lungs/mouth/throats. Nicotine is an irritant and inflammatory agent, period. The science is in, people. I've experienced wheezing and mouth-sores after extending vaping. The convenience and cost also increases likelihood to chain vape, which may be considerably worse for our health (that's intuitive, no?). In addition, flavors are so diverse, that the potential for a toxic reaction to occur is not insignificant, as has seen with diacetyl. Statistically, it would make sense we will see similar cases in the future with different chemicals (Hell, it isn't good to even digest this stuff). In fact, all the different flavorings, temperatures, and coil materials are part of what make the health of vaping a complex topic. Maybe only overheated coils are damaging. Maybe only popcorn flavors are. Maybe TC nickel coils are. It all remains speculation at this point, and the tremendous amount of variables make the science more difficult.

If you can quit cigarettes by using an e-cig, do it. It's a godsend for many of us, and we should be free to vape. But please do not start vaping because you think it's safe or it has cool flavors. And please don't encourage friends and family to because it got you off cigs and you think it's safe.

Just my 2 cents.

Of course in the future there will be more non-smokers that will take up vaping
however most of them would have went right to smoking but for e-cigs.
As far as I am concerned if your of legal age make your own choice.
If you want my advice I'll give it to you.
On a more sober note. If you're experiencing wheezing and mouth sores
you're doing something wrong and its not indicative of vapers in general.
Regards
Mike

 

[DeAnna2112]

I think smoking is far more dangerous then we think or know. As far as vaping, diketones is the only risk i worry about so i opt to not vape them.

 

[VNeil]

No. FDA already consider nicotine an addictive substance. Alcohol and coffee also. It is not enough for them to be listed as controlled substances.

Buried in the middle of this FDA document discussing labeling changes...

Federal Register | Modifications To Labeling of Nicotine Replacement Therapy Products for Over-the-Counter Human Use

"We also note that although any nicotine-containing product has the potential to be addicting, based on the available evidence, currently marketed OTC NRT products do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence. A 2010 review of historical reports made to the Agency's Adverse Event Reporting System and to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's Drug Abuse Warning Network between 1984 and 2009 suggested that NRT products have a low potential for abuse. Several published studies have also found that the abuse liability and dependence potential of NRT products is low, especially compared to cigarettes (see West et al., 2000; Houtsmuller et al., 2002)."

I believe the above is beaurocrateze to suggest they don't consider nicotine, by itself, to be terribly addictive or dependency creating.

Alcohol has it's own Constitutional Amendment, making it quite special. If the FDA ever tried to make coffee and tea controlled substances there would be rioting in the streets.

 

[Asbestos4004]

Why do people switch to vaping and then come on to this forum and cry wolf? Just don't vape of you're so sure its deadly. Then go join a Vegan forum. I eat red meat and I vape. Doc says I'm fit as a fiddle.

 

[sparkky1]

Because the U.S. Congress has specifically denied them that authority.

I think smoking is far more dangerous then we think or know. As far as vaping, diketones is the only risk i worry about so i opt to not vape them.

So there's no "risk" associated with any of the other substitute compounds ?

 

[sparkky1]

Buried in the middle of this FDA document discussing labeling changes...

Federal Register | Modifications To Labeling of Nicotine Replacement Therapy Products for Over-the-Counter Human Use

"We also note that although any nicotine-containing product has the potential to be addicting, based on the available evidence, currently marketed OTC NRT products do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence. A 2010 review of historical reports made to the Agency's Adverse Event Reporting System and to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's Drug Abuse Warning Network between 1984 and 2009 suggested that NRT products have a low potential for abuse. Several published studies have also found that the abuse liability and dependence potential of NRT products is low, especially compared to cigarettes (see West et al., 2000; Houtsmuller et al., 2002)."

I believe the above is beaurocrateze to suggest they don't consider nicotine, by itself, to be terribly addictive or dependency creating.

Alcohol has it's own Constitutional Amendment, making it quite special. If the FDA ever tried to make coffee and tea controlled substances there would be rioting in the streets.

The FDA ‘Revolving Door’ Fosters Conflicts on Advisory Panels

 

[VNeil]

The FDA ‘Revolving Door’ Fosters Conflicts on Advisory Panels

If you want to ignore the science, the fact that never smokers that ingest nic for those studies do not get withdrawal symptoms, be my guest. Despite the desires of many here that vaping be reserved for smokers and ex smokers, there is a huge lab experiment going on right now with all the never smokers that are now vaping nic juice. Instead of the hundreds in those studies now we have thousands, maybe millions of new lab rats, and the grand experiment will go beyond the usual 6 months or so of those studies. We'll see soon enough.

 

[bigdancehawk]

I ask myself - how come we seem to have a spate of new members with Horror Stories - have we got an Invasion of the Trolls we ask?

I wonder too. Either they are incredibly stupid or they are trolls. Or both. In my experience, if you call out a certain brand new poster you believe to be an obvious troll, your post may be summarily deleted as "not appropriate" because "we do not allow abusive, overly aggressive or threatening behavior, or trolling." Ironically, the suspected troll's post will probably not be deleted.

 

[sparkky1]

If you want to ignore the science, the fact that never smokers that ingest nic for those studies do not get withdrawal symptoms, be my guest. Despite the desires of many here that vaping be reserved for smokers and ex smokers, there is a huge lab experiment going on right now with all the never smokers that are now vaping nic juice. Instead of the hundreds in those studies now we have thousands, maybe millions of new lab rats, and the grand experiment will go beyond the usual 6 months or so of those studies. We'll see soon enough.

So your saying the addiction from cigarettes comes from one or many of the toxic compounds and not the nicotine itself ?

 

[Falconeer]

Many thanks for your post bigdancehawk - trouble is I was Senior Mod on Pipesmoking Forums for some years and have been through this before - "My Dad switched to a pipe and three weeks later his nose fell off etc etc..." We learned delete such posts pronto, or posted "Do not Feed" images and banned such posters after warnings....

Point taken - "different ships, different lock splices."

 

[David Wolf]

I feel like the many people are too cocky about the healthiness of vaping. There are many harmful chemicals in the flavoring of the liquids. Sure, the ingredients may be "safe for consumption", but not necessarily for inhalation. I.e., popcorn lung, etc..

At this time I still support vaping as a crutch to quit smoking, but I worry about those who have picked up vaping recreationally.

No, vaping is not more dangerous than we think, at least not in this forum. We read studies, we read criticisms of studies, we find that vaping has far less harmful substances than cigarettes so we vape instead of smoke. Our health improves when we quit smoking and start vaping. So though there are risks our bodies tell us that vaping is far better than smoking. And many of us could not have quit cigarettes without vaping. It's without a doubt a healthier alternative.

 

[Racehorse]

I feel like the many people are too cocky about the healthiness of vaping.

I think until there are repeated studies, with large groups of people, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials that span a number of years, being cocky or not cocky is largely a matter of personality.

Just as the need to stockpile and / or hoard out of worrying is for some people and not for others.

Until you can have proven by SCIENCE, and not once, but more than once, it's all conjecture.

While waiting for that, people should just do what makes logical sense to them, and seek to mitigate any perceived "risks" in whatever way they see fit.

 

[VNeil]

So your saying the addiction from cigarettes comes from one or many of the toxic compounds and not the nicotine itself ?

First, as an aside, it wouldn't have to be a toxic compound. A non-toxic compound could do the job. In principle. I am saying that I *DO NOT KNOW WHY*. I don't have to know "why" in order to believe the observational evidence. Evidence stands by itself, it does not have to have a known WHY to make the observations valid.

If you search around here you will find some theories as to why nic is so much more addictive in cigs. But they are theories. The fact is that there is precious little research done on nicotine, at least research released to the public domain. BT surely knows many of these answers but they aren't talking.

Interestingly, and amazingly, no one has ever commissioned a study specifically to study nicotine addiction in NRTs and other non-tobacco delivery systems. What is known was more or less learned "by accident" as a byproduct of the mental health benefit studies. Nor are there any public studies on the other tobacco alkaloids in cigs, particularly those used in WTA. It's as if no one in a position to fund wants to know the answers. They'd rather spend money on junk science looking for trace elements in vape juice. My guess is they do not want to publish anything positive about nic, and they already know the answers.

If nicotine was thought to be highly addictive in NRT form, how could those studies have ever passed ethical standards? You can't get your test subjects hooked on highly addictive substances. It would be a violation of ethics, so I suspect that this behavior of nicotine had to be well understood before the studies I referred to could have been made.

 

[Racehorse]

But where are all the smokers dying of popcorn lung?

I believe Dr. Farasalinos addressed that in 2014. He felt that it was showing up as COPD, etc.

 

[DeAnna2112]

So there's no "risk" associated with any of the other substitute compounds ?

To clarify, i don't trust any flavoring period whether it's diketone free or not. I think there are more unknowns with flavoring to come so i opt to vape NO flavoring.

 

[sofarsogood]

It looks like they are. At least for some vapers.

I listened to an interview with a guy who studied the processed food business and he says the producers are getting so good at flavoring that a case can be made that it's responsible for some of the bad diet issues. I'm sure I don't want my vape to taste so good that I vape more because of it. I'd rather vape less actually.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I listened to an interview with a guy who studied the processed food business and he says the producers are getting so good at flavoring that a case can be made that it's responsible for some of the bad diet issues. I'm sure I don't want my vape to taste so good that I vape more because of it. I'd rather vape less actually.

Unflavored? I vape almost unflavored (not because of some danger, but because I like it that way).

 

[Susan~S]

In my experience, if you call out a certain brand new poster you believe to be an obvious troll, your post may be summarily deleted as "not appropriate" because "we do not allow abusive, overly aggressive or threatening behavior, or trolling."

No need to "call out" anyone. If you have reason to suspect someone of trolling just click on "report" (located at the bottom left hand side of the post) and let the moderators decide.