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Of course. They’re a corporation. Corporations are by definition literally hardwired to throw ANYTHING and EVERYTHING including the lives of not only the public at large but also customers and non executive level employees under the bus to save or increase stock market price for the relatively short period that whoever is in charge is in charge.
They work anyway because they’re supposed to be hemmed in by people (like theoretically at least, the government) who prevent them from over acting. Lately this hasn’t been happening.
They work anyway because they’re supposed to be hemmed in by people (like theoretically at least, the government) who prevent them from over acting. Lately this hasn’t been happening.
There was a thread around here somewhere earlier talking about the FDA head (forgot his name again. Yes. I know..) and his options for reclassification of ecigs. I babbled about various right wing style solutions that might help. There is a left wing one though:
Make salts prescription only.
Not I unprotonated nic products. JUST salts.
It’s got problems and I’m not over fond of it but it would shoot JUUL/Altria/RJR/PM right in the face.
It's not Juul, it's Altria.
Juul still "trusts" Altria.
Juul will learn soon enough.
Cheers
I
Juul still "trusts" Altria.
Juul will learn soon enough.
Cheers
I
Is JUUL the Problem?
Or is the FDA/US Media the Problem?
Easy to Turn JUUL into the Big Bad Bogeyman which All Sides can Hiss and Throw Stones at. But the Sad Fact is that just about All Flavors were on the Green Mile way before Altria captured National Headlines by buying into JUUL.
Or is the FDA/US Media the Problem?
Easy to Turn JUUL into the Big Bad Bogeyman which All Sides can Hiss and Throw Stones at. But the Sad Fact is that just about All Flavors were on the Green Mile way before Altria captured National Headlines by buying into JUUL.
I cannot support that considering I DIY salts for my wife.
Do people really have time to watch these 1 hour videos?? I took a look at some of the transcript. Several minutes of video can be read in a few seconds.
"17:28
see Juul is a disease that needs to be
17:30
cut out of this industry Lock Stock and
17:33
Two Smoking Barrels
17:34
they need to be bankrupted that's what
17:37
needs to happen to them and here's why"
Is this type of division within the vaping community good for vaping?
"18:40
what you're reading here folks as Altria
18:44
and jewel no announcing that they are
18:49
going to lobby the US government to get
18:53
read of all non traditional flavors what
18:56
do they mean by non traditional flavors
18:58
anything that's not tobacco or menthol"
Wasn’t that the idea of the US government, not Juul?
"20:03
announced over in the United States
20:04
they're gonna pull out of convenience
20:06
stores because thank younger children
20:08
and yet over here in the UK they are
20:10
going to aggressively market themselves
20:13
and two convenience stores Juul is a
20:19
disease that needs to be cut out of this"
This isn't necessarily contradictory behavior.
I thought that in the US, they were just pulling NON traditional flavors (e.g. mango, fruit, custard), not their traditional flavors (e.g. tobacco, menthol). They are still selling their traditional flavors in LOTS of convenience stores in the US. They sell other flavors on their website and supposedly they use a good age verification system on their website.
Are they going to market traditional or non traditional flavors in the UK convenience stores?
"17:28
see Juul is a disease that needs to be
17:30
cut out of this industry Lock Stock and
17:33
Two Smoking Barrels
17:34
they need to be bankrupted that's what
17:37
needs to happen to them and here's why"
Is this type of division within the vaping community good for vaping?
"18:40
what you're reading here folks as Altria
18:44
and jewel no announcing that they are
18:49
going to lobby the US government to get
18:53
read of all non traditional flavors what
18:56
do they mean by non traditional flavors
18:58
anything that's not tobacco or menthol"
Wasn’t that the idea of the US government, not Juul?
"20:03
announced over in the United States
20:04
they're gonna pull out of convenience
20:06
stores because thank younger children
20:08
and yet over here in the UK they are
20:10
going to aggressively market themselves
20:13
and two convenience stores Juul is a
20:19
disease that needs to be cut out of this"
This isn't necessarily contradictory behavior.
I thought that in the US, they were just pulling NON traditional flavors (e.g. mango, fruit, custard), not their traditional flavors (e.g. tobacco, menthol). They are still selling their traditional flavors in LOTS of convenience stores in the US. They sell other flavors on their website and supposedly they use a good age verification system on their website.
Are they going to market traditional or non traditional flavors in the UK convenience stores?
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That pretty much sums it up. Gov was supposed to protect the consumers and unions could protect the workers. The unions are gone and politics has become a for profit business. Now there's nothing standing in their way and they gear everything towards short term profits to make the senior executives rich. Someone like Juul can use the levers of power to manipulate the market and make really big money so why wouldn't they?
People know something is wrong with the world. Democracy and the free market don't seem to be working any more so they yearn for Il Duce to ride in and fix things. Or socialism.
There's a bunch of BS in that video (beside the incessant f-bombs that make it a rules violation to post it here):
* Juul is not pulling out of convenience stores. They are only pulling their "non-traditional flavors" out of convenience stores, and they're doing that due to the outrageous level of scapegoating they've experienced from the press/media and the FDA themselves. Heck, one of the points he told his viewers to ignore even stated that Juul will limit its expansion to "only" 20,000 additional stores this year. How the heck is that "pulling out"?
* Juul does not have a "70 to 75 percent market share in the vaping industry in the United States". They have that kind of market share in the convenience store and gas station market, which itself is only a small fraction of the overall vaping industry market.
* He blames Juul for the "over-regulation" in the US market when the only regulations we have (which are hardly being enforced) were written and proposed a year before Juul even existed, and then he cites the TPD's 20 mg/ml limit as though it were a positive thing. I know quite a few people for whom 20 mg would not have been enough to get them over the hump of putting down combustible tobacco. Then there's there's the TPD's wonderful 10 ml limit on anything that contains nicotine, which has effectively killed off DIY in the EU. Yet somehow we're over-regulated and they're not?
Sorry, but BS like this makes his argument dubious at best.
Perhaps what we should be asking ourselves is how/why Juul managed to get 70% of the convenience store market in just a few short years? Could it be because it's the only product ever sold in that market that's actually effective at getting smokers to switch?
* Juul is not pulling out of convenience stores. They are only pulling their "non-traditional flavors" out of convenience stores, and they're doing that due to the outrageous level of scapegoating they've experienced from the press/media and the FDA themselves. Heck, one of the points he told his viewers to ignore even stated that Juul will limit its expansion to "only" 20,000 additional stores this year. How the heck is that "pulling out"?
* Juul does not have a "70 to 75 percent market share in the vaping industry in the United States". They have that kind of market share in the convenience store and gas station market, which itself is only a small fraction of the overall vaping industry market.
* He blames Juul for the "over-regulation" in the US market when the only regulations we have (which are hardly being enforced) were written and proposed a year before Juul even existed, and then he cites the TPD's 20 mg/ml limit as though it were a positive thing. I know quite a few people for whom 20 mg would not have been enough to get them over the hump of putting down combustible tobacco. Then there's there's the TPD's wonderful 10 ml limit on anything that contains nicotine, which has effectively killed off DIY in the EU. Yet somehow we're over-regulated and they're not?
Sorry, but BS like this makes his argument dubious at best.
Perhaps what we should be asking ourselves is how/why Juul managed to get 70% of the convenience store market in just a few short years? Could it be because it's the only product ever sold in that market that's actually effective at getting smokers to switch?
The only good thing about the TPD is that it seems like it might have hit bottom. Over here we have the possibility of an almost complete shut down. One day we might think how nice it would be to be able to buy a tiny bottle of nic.
Good point there. People buy stuff they like and that works, instead of junk that doesn't do either. Amazing.
Capitalism (like Democracy) can be terrible system, but its way better than any other system.
.
Like any system there's always room for improvement. Free markets only work when they're really free. But not so much from regulation. Regulation is still required to help protect workers and consumers from predation by a corporate mentality focused on profit at any cost. That type of regulation does not change how a market functions, although it may affect the cost to industry which will have to be built into their financial models. I'm a given industry where all the players meet the same regulatory requirements then they're still operating without control of the market itself. Now we know that's not how it really works, but only because the regulatory framework can be manipulated to provide unfair advantage to a particular influential corporation.
The fact remains money pays for election campaigns, and lobbyists walk the halls not only of Congress but State capitals as well. So regulations are not enacted in an impartial process, but one constantly being swayed by multiple segments of the corporate and private communities. The hope after every election is to get rid of those sorts of influences of lobbyists and industries but it never quite seems to happen. Despite any campaign promises it's as bad today as at any other point in time (I'd say worse but no need to go too far into the politics of it).
I think the theory is that your wife, as an ex- or quitting smoker (I presume) rather than someone new to nicotine, would qualify for a prescription. Of course, requiring a prescription does have its own problems. It strikes me as being an option worth discussing though well short of ideal.
As well as impartiality, we also lack omniscience. There are times when there are no truly good options and it's hard to tell what the best choice is - even with the best of intentions.
The thing about capitalism (and communism, as far as that goes) is that the initial theories fail to take human nature into account. Pure capitalism simply can't exist because it requires people to behave in ways we just don't. At the same time, capitalist-based systems do tend to be more successful in the real world and I'm very happy to be living in one, but the worship of capitalist ideology that exists in some places leaves me a bit bemused.
I like my JUUL's .. they deliver a solid hit, are refillable and nicely portable ..
In fact, I'd consider the Pod to be the future of the Vape, at least within us Regular People that just want a nicotine fix, easily, quickly and conveniently ..
In fact, I'd consider the Pod to be the future of the Vape, at least within us Regular People that just want a nicotine fix, easily, quickly and conveniently ..
For their sake, I hope so, but you know what tends to happen once the camel's nose is in the tent, right?
You mean a tiny bottle of e-liquid? I don't consider 20 mg to be "nic".
Pretty rare, but I disagree with a whole lot of what's said in this thread.
I own a corporation and a franchising parent LLC, and I'm not hard wired to do evil, although being publicly traded would dramatically change my level of control, and open up a lot of temptations for many. Juul, as I so often hear on this forum, is not inherently evil - irrespective of what you might think about any social media marketing tactics they are rumored to have used in the past (I never saw any that were objectionable, and searched but can't find them). BT buying in doesn't make them automatically evil, either, but it certainly didn't make me happy.
So many seem to think they just lucked into their success: put together a device and some juice, and sales just took off. They did tons of research and testing, and came up with a formulation for juice (pioneering a combination of benzoate & other salts), and a device that delivers vapor at a near optimum for virtually matching cigarettes to sate the smoking/nicotine cravings. They tested nic absorption rates into the bloodstream with various formulas, at different temperatures, using multiple suction pressures. And their product works. They executed a great marketing and distribution plan. And they're doing what they set out to do - offering a viable option for those that want to quit smoking. Literally millions of cigarettes are not being smoked every day because of them...by people that would likely never join this forum, never go to a vape shop, build or swap coils, and don't want to be bothered with what many here consider a hobby.
Just over the holidays, I was amazed at how many of my own family, lifelong smokers, hadn't had a cigarette in months. Six using Juul, one using Suorin Air. I'd tried to get them into vaping, but they all picked up a Juul in a convenience store, and gave up smokes. I'm not one of them - I still build rta's, but a very small percentage of the public is willing to do something like that.
I won't make this a mile long post getting into the politics of it all, or responding to everything said here, but the problem isn't Juul. Or even BT. Of course they'll lobby for their advantage. It's the way we regulate and enforce (or don't). Anyone happen to see how we came into an opioid crisis? How the FDA, ignoring the law, behind closed doors with lobbyists, changed the labeling requirements for Oxycontin, opening the floodgates? Yes, BT cheated & lied, and Juul probably eventually will too. But it's our own government that is the real problem. Juul just gave the public what it wanted.
I own a corporation and a franchising parent LLC, and I'm not hard wired to do evil, although being publicly traded would dramatically change my level of control, and open up a lot of temptations for many. Juul, as I so often hear on this forum, is not inherently evil - irrespective of what you might think about any social media marketing tactics they are rumored to have used in the past (I never saw any that were objectionable, and searched but can't find them). BT buying in doesn't make them automatically evil, either, but it certainly didn't make me happy.
So many seem to think they just lucked into their success: put together a device and some juice, and sales just took off. They did tons of research and testing, and came up with a formulation for juice (pioneering a combination of benzoate & other salts), and a device that delivers vapor at a near optimum for virtually matching cigarettes to sate the smoking/nicotine cravings. They tested nic absorption rates into the bloodstream with various formulas, at different temperatures, using multiple suction pressures. And their product works. They executed a great marketing and distribution plan. And they're doing what they set out to do - offering a viable option for those that want to quit smoking. Literally millions of cigarettes are not being smoked every day because of them...by people that would likely never join this forum, never go to a vape shop, build or swap coils, and don't want to be bothered with what many here consider a hobby.
Just over the holidays, I was amazed at how many of my own family, lifelong smokers, hadn't had a cigarette in months. Six using Juul, one using Suorin Air. I'd tried to get them into vaping, but they all picked up a Juul in a convenience store, and gave up smokes. I'm not one of them - I still build rta's, but a very small percentage of the public is willing to do something like that.
I won't make this a mile long post getting into the politics of it all, or responding to everything said here, but the problem isn't Juul. Or even BT. Of course they'll lobby for their advantage. It's the way we regulate and enforce (or don't). Anyone happen to see how we came into an opioid crisis? How the FDA, ignoring the law, behind closed doors with lobbyists, changed the labeling requirements for Oxycontin, opening the floodgates? Yes, BT cheated & lied, and Juul probably eventually will too. But it's our own government that is the real problem. Juul just gave the public what it wanted.
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