That is why US Vape industry is on the edge of destruction right now

[Bliss Doubt]

That’s why my spouse and I are saving up our pills .

Me too. I make jokes about it, but I save all of my leftovers from the dentist, the doctor, etc. I can almost cut it all short by saying "they don't want us to vape because they want us to die, soon, from smoking cigarettes, but pay plenty of taxes on the cigs on our way out".

 

[Bliss Doubt]

As I have stated before, I was merely interested in what it was all about, i. e. I had never heard the name before. So I googled again, this time with the keyword ‘Controversy’, which led me to an article written by Emanuel himself. Even though it’s really long, I’ve read it in its entirety, and there’s nothing in there that I would deem controversial. Also he does not advocate that ‘people’ shouldn’t receive treatment after 75, but he has decided that he himself doesn’t want any medical treatment after 75. That’s a big difference. Now unless I see something where he actually advocates this position (people over 75 shouldn’t get treatment), I think the Wikipedia entry is more or less accurate.

Edit: I will admit that there’s lots of stuff in this article that lends itself to selective quotes, which, taken out of context, would seem horrible.


Why I Hope to Die at 75

That wiki article has a lot of citations from Factcheck.org and Politifact, both fake checker organizations that leap over evidence and play with semantics in order to promote certain narratives. The real work, always, is to read the books and read the speeches of the person in question.

Myself, I've had it with people sitting in billionaire funded think tanks, your World Economic Forum (Klaus Schwab, currently age 83), your Open Society Foundation (George Soros, currently age 91), the latter of which spawned the Center for American Progress, where Zeke Emanuel is a senior fellow, sitting around thinking of sacrifices to demand of those of us who work and live honest lives, who tell us we are taking too much, that we need to die young, and in the mean time stay home and eat bugs.

In the 1990's when HRC began to say "we need us some health care reform!", I remember thinking, in listening to people talk about what they wanted from their elected monkeys, that I'd never, ever heard anyone say "we need health care reform". I knew immediately that "health care reform" was dog whistle language for something else, something that would bite the working class.

 

[dreamvaper]

It just isn't true that we aren't fighting for our rights.

If you feel angry and starting to name what exactly you did to fight through the last years, that's great, it means you belong to the minority who was fighting, kudos to you.
I still believe that the majority of US voters (and even ECF members) did nothing on that matter.
Not sure what is/was the critical amount of US voters/vapers to change the situation tho.

 

[jwbnyc]

You are ignoring the fact that vapers, and smokers, (who are lumped together) are a minority in this country. Politicians have made the calculation that this is a minority they can afford to ignore, and they have, by and large. The only time they pay attention to us is when their revenues fall below projected levels.

 

[KurtVD]

The real work, always, is to read the books and read the speeches of the person in question.

I agree, and as I explained in my previous post, I did read an article written by himself (yes, just 1, but a long one, which happens to deal with the subject that was mentioned, i.e. no health treatment after 75). Now even if he is associated with a bunch of orgs and people that you despise, based on this article it’s totally disingenuous to state that E. E. is advocating to suspend health care for the elderly. However I’m open to be proven wrong, and if you can
show me something where he actually says something like it, I will agree with you.

 

[Bliss Doubt]

If you feel angry and starting to name what exactly you did to fight through the last years, that's great, it means you belong to the minority who was fighting, kudos to you.
I still believe that the majority of US voters (and even ECF members) did nothing on that matter.
Not sure what is/was the critical amount of US voters/vapers to change the situation tho.

As I said, what I do is what most of us do who are posting here in the US, and having people from other countries tell us we are failures is not helpful.

I think my main point is that educating people, the ones who walk up to you and say "isn't that harmful", or "that's worse than smoking", all of them, is the way forward. We do have to pound the elected monkeys, but if each of us can educate/inform all the people who ask (and people do very often ask and comment, and like you, love to drop their opinions on us), then all of those who approach us will receive some real knowledge to carry forward to that many more, and so on, until enough people have some understanding of vaping for smoking cessation, that the gas bag politicians will have fewer interested people to spew on, and maybe will either help us or stop trying to hurt us.

 

[DaveP]

Government sucks up payments from tobacco companies on an annual basis. They'd hate to lose the Sin Tax.

Tobacco companies pay billions to compensate for smoking-related illness. Is it enough?

 

[CMD-Ky]

I agree, and as I explained in my previous post, I did read an article written by himself (yes, just 1, but a long one, which happens to deal with the subject that was mentioned, i.e. no health treatment after 75). Now even if he is associated with a bunch of orgs and people that you despise, based on this article it’s totally disingenuous to state that E. E. is advocating to suspend health care for the elderly. However I’m open to be proven wrong, and if you can
show me something where he actually says something like it, I will agree with you.

After your selective Wiki articles and an essay by Zeke, you find me to be disingenuous? I have read Zeke's stuff from when he first came to my attention a year or so before he joined the Obama administration. I found his thinking to be fascinating, even frightening at times.

I am not going to hunt down a lot of references and send them to you. I have done that before on forums. I send you articles and you find them insufficient. It would never end. Neither of us will move very far in our thinking; certainly no mind will be changed. It is waste of time. If you find his writings, speeches and interviews to be anywhere from innocuous to admirable or somewhere in the middle, fine with me.

I am out.

 

[dreamvaper]

Another "great" one from UC San Diego Tobacco Truth: UC San Diego Claims No Evidence for Quit-Smoking Via E-Cigarettes, Medicines or Cold Turkey

and another one: Vaping Doesn't Help Smokers Quit? Another Strange Cigarette 'Relapse' Study

 

[Bliss Doubt]

Another "great" one from UC San Diego Tobacco Truth: UC San Diego Claims No Evidence for Quit-Smoking Via E-Cigarettes, Medicines or Cold Turkey

and another one: Vaping Doesn't Help Smokers Quit? Another Strange Cigarette 'Relapse' Study

As for that first one, I do not know why UC San Diego wants to fiercely to defeat vaping, but they do pipe in regularly, using studies that look like they were designed by first year students in a garage, if you look closely at them. And, with "No Evidence for Quit-Smoking Via E-Cigarettes, Medicines or Cold Turkey", what are they really trying to say?

For the second one, if you read through, which I did a little bit, you'll see that the definition of "relapse" is ultimately questioned when it comes to progress toward tapering off to completely quitting cigarettes.

I'll read them further later on, but I have to make two dozen empanadas today for tonight. I promise to read further, but yah, it's a continuous game of wack a mole when it comes to all the so called experts who don't care what we eat, drink, rub on our skin, breathe from the air, or otherwise consume, except when it comes to vaping for smoking cessation. That seems to be the pet project of nuisance pseudo-scientists. It doesn't mean we give up.

You've been lucky on vaping in the UK, but keep in mind, it takes just one new elected monkey to climb on a soapbox and start trying to take away your vapes. It's the nature of the political beast.

 

[DaveP]

Another "great" one from UC San Diego Tobacco Truth: UC San Diego Claims No Evidence for Quit-Smoking Via E-Cigarettes, Medicines or Cold Turkey

and another one: Vaping Doesn't Help Smokers Quit? Another Strange Cigarette 'Relapse' Study

Those who want to switch are successful. The rest don't want to "believe" that the Vape is the answer.

 

[dreamvaper]

it takes just one new elected monkey to climb on a soapbox and start trying to take away your vapes

I don't think that's the case as I pointed on the 1st page what are the main points that lead to such a different approach between the UK and US towards vaping.
Not just the "bags with green" tossed towards US politics, even more important is the health/insurance policy difference. UK gov-t must care about UK ppl to stay as healthy as possible to avoid spending billions on treatment and US model can allow almost any US insured voter to get as sick as he/she wish to.

 

[tj99959]

Well, I'm 80 years old, and I find this all fascinating.
I can tell ya what I'm not going to do, I'm not going to stand on some soap box screaming about e-cigs.
Those days are over for me.

But what I might have to do is take a dermal and modify the chip sets in my Provaris' so that I can use flat top batteries. (again exercising my self reliance)
Plane and simple, the cat got out of the bag a long time ago. What can't you do for yourself?!?

add:
And, Hon Lik should still receive a Nobel Prize!!!

 

[dreamvaper]

I'm not going to stand on some soap box screaming about e-cigs.
Those days are over for me.

that's a shame, you should actually go to Oprah and tell her (and all the audience) -
- Mam, I'm an 80 years old vaper and I look better than you, no offense.
- Millions of smokers who watch this - switch to vaping ASAP or smoking will kill you sooner or a bit later

 

[Bliss Doubt]

I don't think that's the case as I pointed on the 1st page what are the main points that lead to such a different approach between the UK and US towards vaping.
Not just the "bags with green" tossed towards US politics, even more important is the health/insurance policy difference. UK gov-t must care about UK ppl to stay as healthy as possible to avoid spending billions on treatment and US model can allow almost any US insured voter to get as sick as he/she wish to.

US insurance companies don't want to pay out on their insureds any more than the UK health system wants to be swamped with the sufferers of smoking harm, and I have seen efforts in the UK to "medicalize" vaping, so that you have to see your doctor regularly to get your vapes. I doubt you can expect never again to see that attempt.

In the US and everywhere, none of it has anything to do with reality. It's about hegemony, profits, big tobacco, the pharmaceutical industry, the collection of taxes from us, and of course the ANTZ and nannies. The Campaign for Tobacco Free Children has a "Global Health Advocacy Incubator" which is coming for you sooner or later.

Here, the FDA has a swinging door to the pharmaceutical industry that has the smoking cessation methods that don't work, and neither the agency nor the industry will ever stop trying to grow in power.

Big tobacco is a mixed bag. it has, in some cases, worked toward defeating anti-vaping legislation, but in at least a couple of instances, tobacco companies bought vape companies which subsequently disappeared.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

I am not going to hunt down a lot of references and send them to you. I have done that before on forums. I send you articles and you find them insufficient. It would never end. Neither of us will move very far in our thinking; certainly no mind will be changed. It is waste of time.

So true. I couldn't have said it better myself.

The essence of what you wrote reminds me of an amusing place on ECF, the Outside, or the OuterWorld as I call it.

I get my kicks on Route 66 in OuterWorld 999 (not so much anymore).

 

[CMD-Ky]

I have been banned from the "Outside"; too mean, I suppose writing all those unacceptable ideas that permeate my feeble old mind. I lack the "privilege" so they tell me.

So true. I couldn't have said it better myself.

The essence of what you wrote reminds me of an amusing place on ECF, the Outside, or the OuterWorld as I call it.

I get my kicks on Route 66 in OuterWorld 999 (not so much anymore).

 

[tj99959]

- Mam, I'm an 80 years old vaper and I look better than you, no offense.

WHAT!! Ya don't like the Norman Rockwell sketch??

 

[ShowMeTwice]

I have been banned from the "Outside"; too mean, I suppose writing all those unacceptable ideas that permeate my feeble old mind. I lack the "privilege" so they tell me.

Honestly, I would like to see the Outside shut down like VU's version of the same was. Why? IMHO ECF is a vaping and social (Lounge) site. By my estimation there are about a dozen or so who post in the Outside. As you know well, that group dominates the land. Those who don't get along with, or run afoul of, that group get ushered off to never be seen again. I've run afoul of a few of the regulars there but haven't been booted. But, I also don't post much there anymore. I got bored with it all. To me it's always the "same old, same old" and like you said earlier nothing ever gets settled.

 

[tj99959]

^ Agree.
Anything worth reading gets posted here anyway.