"JUUL Exhales After Dodging Full Ban On Flavored E-Cigs"

[Irked Particle]

From Wired.com:

Juul Can Breathe After Dodging Full FDA Ban on Flavored E-Cigs

Interesting article about the FDA's decision not to ban flavors. Instead, retailers will display juul products where kids under 18 years old won't be able to see them, so they say.

Seems weird to me after reading about an imminent flavor ban coming next week.

What do y'all think?

 

[bombastinator]

I think juul finally managed to cognate how much trouble they were in. As soon as that video of a child vaping behind a teachers back went viral they should have pulled their flavored products and reformulated the rest, while publicly expressing shock and outrage.
People are very very protective of their children and they’re not necessarily rational about it. I think they lucked out and got off really lightly. I don’t think this one is over though. If kids simply start vaping the tobacco and menthol flavors, which I think likely, another round of ugly is going to happen

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

From Wired.com:

Juul Can Breathe After Dodging Full FDA Ban on Flavored E-Cigs

Interesting article about the FDA's decision not to ban flavors. Instead, retailers will display JUUL products where kids under 18 years old won't be able to see them, so they say.

Seems weird to me after reading about an imminent flavor ban coming next week.

What do y'all think?

Banning is the 1 thing that Congress specifically said they could not do when they outlined the rules and gave the FDA the reigns on tobacco products specifically ENDS.

 

[CarolT]

Banning is the 1 thing that Congress specifically said they could not do when they outlined the rules and gave the FDA the reigns on tobacco products specifically ENDS.

Those proposed reductions in nicotine levels amount to a de facto tobacco ban. If somebody took it to court, I think it could be thrown out as in violation of the intent of the law. The question is, who is going to stand up and challenge the FDA? Probably not the tobacco companies. They're controlled by the anti-smokers and never make any serious attempt to fight.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I have just spent the last hour reading USCODES chapter 9 on what they can and cannot do. Sadly, they have been given the authority to do this. Yeah, it could be challenged in court but the courts already found that the tobacco companies have altered the delivery of the nicotine and they were sited for it. It did not appear to change anything. I imagine they were just fined and nothing more done.
It also looks like the FDA is going to use these methods created by the tobacco companies against them by actually making them reduce the nic. Time will tell.

In August 2006 a United States district court judge found that the major United States cigarette companies have designed their cigarettes to precisely control nicotine delivery levels and provide doses of nicotine sufficient to create and sustain addiction while also concealing much of their nicotine-related research. USA v. Philip Morris, USA, Inc., et al. (Civil Action No. 99–2496 (GK), August 17, 2006)." [USC10] 21 USC: Front Matter ue&num=383&hl=true&edition=prelim&granuleId=USC-prelim-title21-section387


Another thing to note is the FDA has been really busy updating all of the rules for ecigs. Almost everyone I looked at has a fall date of 2018. Looks like god just took over. And I don't mean the man/lady upstairs......

 

[bombastinator]

Those proposed reductions in nicotine levels amount to a de facto tobacco ban. If somebody took it to court, I think it could be thrown out as in violation of the intent of the law. The question is, who is going to stand up and challenge the FDA? Probably not the tobacco companies. They're controlled by the anti-smokers and never make any serious attempt to fight.

You’re kidding right? More like the reverse is true.

 

[Bill Godshall]

FDA's proposal to ban the sale of 99% of flavored vapor products at all convenience, grocery and big box stores
(unless they ban children from entering) will harm JUUL more than any other vapor manufacturer.

Gottlieb said:
"Today, I’m directing the FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products (CTP) to revisit this compliance policy as it applies to deemed ENDS products that are flavored, including all flavors other than tobacco, mint and menthol. The changes I seek would protect kids by having all flavored ENDS products (other than tobacco, mint and menthol flavors or non-flavored products) sold in age-restricted, in-person locations and, if sold online, under heightened practices for age verification."

But Section 906 of the 2009 TCA prohibits FDA from banning "the sale of any tobacco product in face-to-face transactions by a specific category of retail outlets",
and could/will be argued in court (by injured manufacturers and/or retailers) that FDA is creating a "specific category of retail outlets" where the sale of many different tobacco products will be banned.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ31/pdf/PLAW-111publ31.pdf
‘‘(d) RESTRICTIONS.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary may by regulation require restrictions on the sale and distribution of a tobacco product, including restrictions on the access to, and the advertising and promotion of, the tobacco product, if the Secretary determines that such regulation would be appropriate for the protection of the public health. The Secretary may by regulation impose restrictions on the advertising and promotion of a tobacco product consistent with and to full extent permitted by the first amendment to the Constitution. The finding as to whether such regulation would be appropriate for the protection of the public health shall be determined with respect to the risks and benefits to the population as a whole, including users and nonusers of the tobacco product, and taking into account—
‘‘(A) the increased or decreased likelihood that existing users of tobacco products will stop using such products; and
‘‘(B) the increased or decreased likelihood that those who do not use tobacco products will start using such products. No such regulation may require that the sale or distribution of a tobacco product be limited to the written or oral authorization of a practitioner licensed by law to prescribe medical products.
‘‘(2) LABEL STATEMENTS.—The label of a tobacco product shall bear such appropriate statements of the restrictions required by a regulation under subsection (a) as the Secretary may in such regulation prescribe.
‘‘(3) LIMITATIONS.—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—No restrictions under paragraph (1) may—
‘‘(i) prohibit the sale of any tobacco product in face-to-face transactions by a specific category of retail outlets; or
‘‘(ii) establish a minimum age of sale of tobacco products to any person older than 18 years of age.

The only question is will any large retailer (e.g. Walmart, Giant, Krogers, Walgreen, Sheetz, 711, CoGos) or grocery or convenience store trade association sue the FDA claiming that FDA's ban on sales at a category of retailers (that allow youth access) violates the 2009 TCA.

Since JUUL already announced it will stop selling most of its flavored products in stores that allow youth access, JUUL won't be suing the FDA. Byt its possible that other injured vapor manufacturers could sue FDA.

The good news for vape shops is that FDA's proposal will increase sale of flavored vapor products at many/most vape shops (if they hang a sign on their door saying "nobody under 18 allowed").

 

[Beamslider]

Vape shops here already have had signs on the door stating "nobody under 21 allowed". You have to be 21 to buy Tobacco in California. Some other states too.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I think juul finally managed to cognate how much trouble they were in. As soon as that video of a child vaping behind a teachers back went viral they should have pulled their flavored products and reformulated the rest, while publicly expressing shock and outrage.
People are very very protective of their children and they’re not necessarily rational about it. I think they lucked out and got off really lightly. I don’t think this one is over though. If kids simply start vaping the tobacco and menthol flavors, which I think likely, another round of ugly is going to happen

It is not over by a long shot......The FDA can manipulate the stats to also show what they want them to. Even if someone points out they left a whole lot of data wrong, they will just say its a matter of interpretation and theirs is the one that counts.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

FDA's proposal to ban the sale of 99% of flavored vapor products at all convenience, grocery and big box stores
(unless they ban children from entering) will harm JUUL more than any other vapor manufacturer.

Gottlieb said:
"Today, I’m directing the FDA’s Center for Tobacco Products (CTP) to revisit this compliance policy as it applies to deemed ENDS products that are flavored, including all flavors other than tobacco, mint and menthol. The changes I seek would protect kids by having all flavored ENDS products (other than tobacco, mint and menthol flavors or non-flavored products) sold in age-restricted, in-person locations and, if sold online, under heightened practices for age verification."

But Section 906 of the 2009 TCA prohibits FDA from banning "the sale of any tobacco product in face-to-face transactions by a specific category of retail outlets",
and could/will be argued in court (by injured manufacturers and/or retailers) that FDA is creating a "specific category of retail outlets" where the sale of many different tobacco products will be banned.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ31/pdf/PLAW-111publ31.pdf
‘‘(d) RESTRICTIONS.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary may by regulation require restrictions on the sale and distribution of a tobacco product, including restrictions on the access to, and the advertising and promotion of, the tobacco product, if the Secretary determines that such regulation would be appropriate for the protection of the public health. The Secretary may by regulation impose restrictions on the advertising and promotion of a tobacco product consistent with and to full extent permitted by the first amendment to the Constitution. The finding as to whether such regulation would be appropriate for the protection of the public health shall be determined with respect to the risks and benefits to the population as a whole, including users and nonusers of the tobacco product, and taking into account—
‘‘(A) the increased or decreased likelihood that existing users of tobacco products will stop using such products; and
‘‘(B) the increased or decreased likelihood that those who do not use tobacco products will start using such products. No such regulation may require that the sale or distribution of a tobacco product be limited to the written or oral authorization of a practitioner licensed by law to prescribe medical products.
‘‘(2) LABEL STATEMENTS.—The label of a tobacco product shall bear such appropriate statements of the restrictions required by a regulation under subsection (a) as the Secretary may in such regulation prescribe.
‘‘(3) LIMITATIONS.—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—No restrictions under paragraph (1) may—
‘‘(i) prohibit the sale of any tobacco product in face-to-face transactions by a specific category of retail outlets; or
‘‘(ii) establish a minimum age of sale of tobacco products to any person older than 18 years of age.

The only question is will any large retailer (e.g. Walmart, Giant, Krogers, Walgreen, Sheetz, 711, CoGos) or grocery or convenience store trade association sue the FDA claiming that FDA's ban on sales at a category of retailers (that allow youth access) violates the 2009 TCA.

Since JUUL already announced it will stop selling most of its flavored products in stores that allow youth access, JUUL won't be suing the FDA. Byt its possible that other injured vapor manufacturers could sue FDA.

The good news for vape shops is that FDA's proposal will increase sale of flavored vapor products at many/most vape shops (if they hang a sign on their door saying "nobody under 18 allowed").

This has been update recently to say you have to prove over 18. Like I said in my last posting......lots of updates have a fall date of 2018, some Oct some Nov even.....FDA has been busy covering their behinds



http://uscode.house.gov/search.xhtm...:|true|[21::::::::false:]|[QWxsIEZpZWxkcw==:]

 

[WorksForMe]

But Section 906 of the 2009 TCA prohibits FDA from banning "the sale of any tobacco product in face-to-face transactions by a specific category of retail outlets", and could/will be argued in court (by injured manufacturers and/or retailers) that FDA is creating a "specific category of retail outlets" where the sale of many different tobacco products will be banned.

I'm not sure that Gottlieb thinks he can enforce a flavor ban in certain retail outlets. The plan could be to strong arm Juul and BT into voluntarily removing their flavored ecigs from retail stores. It's working to some extent. Juul and Altria have agreed to remove their flavored vapor products from retail stores. On the other hand, Fontem announced that it would not remove its flavored products(Myblu) from convenience stores and gas stations.

 

[CarolT]

You’re kidding right? More like the reverse is true.

Absolutely not. If they take the nicotine out, you might as well smoke nothing. It won't help your concentration, just as decaffeinated coffee doesn't increase your alertness.

 

[bombastinator]

Absolutely not. If they take the nicotine out, you might as well smoke nothing. It won't help your concentration, just as decaffeinated coffee doesn't increase your alertness.

The word is “reduce”. Not “eliminate”. Admittedly, places like britian have produced unreasonably low nicotine ceilings which do to some degree cause the problems you describe. The problem with sealed pod vapes like juul and vuse is that they do not allow the user to reduce nicotine as they see fit.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

The word is “reduce”. Not “eliminate”. Admittedly, places like britian have produced unreasonably low nicotine ceilings which do to some degree cause the problems you describe. The problem with sealed pod vapes like juul and vuse is that they do not allow the user to reduce nicotine as they see fit.

Anyone who has ever smoked knows that reducing the nic only increases the number of cigarettes smoked. The FDA has to know this also.....notice that BT isn't saying anything about the possibility of reducing the nic --they know they are the winners either way it goes......such a farce.

 

[bombastinator]

Anyone who has ever smoked knows that reducing the nic only increases the number of cigarettes smoked. The FDA has to know this also.....notice that BT isn't saying anything about the possibility of reducing the nic --they know they are the winners either way it goes......such a farce.

And anyone who vapes notices that a lot of vapers just naturally reduce their nic level over time (generally a fairly long time and not all of them)
We may be arguing at cross purposes here. I think I may have misread your initial statement.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

And anyone who vapes notices that a lot of vapers just naturally reduce their nic level over time (generally a fairly long time and not all of them)
We may be arguing at Ross purposes here. I think I may have misread your initial statement.

LOL...No argument here. I was responding to the subject of BT reducing the nic in cigarettes. About the FDA threat, etc.......not vaping or nic in vapes.

 

[Steamix]

prohibiting banning the sale of ANY tobacco product in face-to-face ...

...deeming regs classify pretty much anything as a tobacco product, upto and probably including the USPS delivery truck transporting your vapegear order...

Someone in the FDA just managed to kick their own crotch with that one ?

 

[sofarsogood]

I got familiar with the politics within a few months of starting to vape 4 years ago. My read of the situation back then was that everybody related to tobacco control wants ecigs banned while cigarettes remain for sale the same as always and that seems to be exactly what's happening. If the places where ecigs can be sold deserves to be limited that goes double for cigarettes. Hopefully there will be some press for that.

 

[Rossum]

Fontem announced that it would not remove its flavored products(Myblu) from convenience stores and gas stations

I'm happy to hear that at least one company has some intestinal fortitude. It's difficult to get standing for a court challenge if you comply voluntarily before any actual ban is in place.

 

[CarolT]

The word is “reduce”. Not “eliminate”. Admittedly, places like britian have produced unreasonably low nicotine ceilings which do to some degree cause the problems you describe. The problem with sealed pod vapes like juul and vuse is that they do not allow the user to reduce nicotine as they see fit.

Don't you realize that their end game is to be unreasonable? And that they are taking overt actions toward unreasonably low levels, while dishonestly denying that this is their intent with their mouths.

"Watch what they do, not what they say." Ancient words of wisdom.