Liquid is insanely expensive.

[Myk]

I vape a lot of flavors, so, while I could probably make a single flavor I like after a bit of work, making 15 would be a job in itself.

I get every other Sunday off, pretty much the entire year except for holidays and vacations. That day is dedicated to my wife.

Being a flavor ..... is even better suited to DIY IMO, your combinations are unlimited. Your schedule isn't

Single flavor mixes aren't hard at all. Just start small and low to get an idea and then increase. I think most of those with problems have them because they start big and with a lot of flavoring.

Hmmm. ProVape DOES in fact repeatedly claim their juice uses "Nicotine extracted in the USA from tobacco grown in the USA".
Which, according to most research, doesn't seem possible. Or if it IS possible, it worries me more - because there's no BIG nic extraction operation in the U.S. so where's it coming from? I think the people supplying pharmaceutical companies with Nic, from India and Ireland and China, have to maintain pretty high standards. AmeriNic is going to start making Nic here, but I don't think they're in production yet.

The story I know of is feasible. Maybe not likely but it could happen with the right connections and it would be difficult to verify. It's not exactly rocket science, people make harder extractions illegally.
If it came down to a ban I would be pressuring trailer park "labs" into making it. Of course I'd rather have it from a pharmaceutical lab.

 

[macmiddlebrooks]

Right. I know this subject is beat to death here but the whole argument about not wanting to vape huge vendors like Hangsen or Dekang because they are made in China is mind-boggling to me. Not only is the nicotine in U.S. made juices possibly coming from China, but these Chinese vendors have more to lose than Halo or whoever. They are serving people around the world, with an incredible volume.

Also until juice making is regulated, I just don't understand the cultural approach to U.S. juices somehow being more safe. Here is a list of recalled products, a lot of U.S. companies in there. These are operations with both internal and external oversight, and they still fail. IMO it's not if a e-juice recall happens, it's when. I personally don't trust Jeff and Laura at Booby Vapes more than I trust Dekang, just my opinion. It's about bottom lines and processes, thinking a U.S. vendor won't cut corners or make mistakes is faulty logic.

This. If price is your main concern, scoop up 250ml of RY4 from Hangsen for $50 shipped (takes two weeks from HK). Tastes great if your into tobacco flavors. Incredible value IMHO.

 

[fetalbounce]

I didn't say there weren't juices available that were $1/ml or more, I said it's not "common" like you had said.

It's an average price at the vape shops in my neck of the woods. It also seems to be roughly average online. For example, Alice in Vapeland sells for .75/ml, Uncle Junk's goes for around .85/ml, etc.

 

[fetalbounce]

well, I suppose that you are happy to be here now and that you have probably switched to refillable models - which work a lot better and save a ton of money

Yeah, I totally am. There was no way I could afford a $20-$30 per day vaping habit!

 

[fetalbounce]

I'll gladly pay for quality...

I will too if it makes sense.

 

[fetalbounce]

"Yeah. I'm not going to inhale anything that comes from China...."

"A poster mentioned FastTech., and I checked them out, and they ARE super-cheap-BUT, it's a foreign company"

I wasn't suggesting you do. Duh. I'm saying if you want cheap, you can get it. If not, you're going to have to pay more. I am willing to pay more, and don't have a problem with it.

best regards, larry mac

I'm willing to get the best value for my dollar.

 

[fetalbounce]

This. If price is your main concern, scoop up 250ml of RY4 from Hangsen for $50 shipped (takes two weeks from HK). Tastes great if your into tobacco flavors. Incredible value IMHO.

That is an incredible value. I went the the hangsen site and couldn't figure out how to place an order. Do they only sell to manufacturers?

 

[macmiddlebrooks]

That is an incredible value. I went the the hangsen site and couldn't figure out how to place an order. Do they only sell to manufacturers?

They sell to individuals but I think the smallest order is 20 bottles (all same flavor, all same ratio/all same nic lvl). Email them to order in bulk. There are other overseas vendors that will sell smaller amounts though. 250mls lasts me about 2 months. That's $25 a mo on juice and that's saving money!... which is one of my main goals with vapeing vs smoking.

 

[flowerpots]

You can also buy Hangsen in the States:

Hangsen E-Liquid, Hangsen E-Juice | MadVapes

Hangsen Essence Flavoring - E Cig eGo, E juice, Mods, Cartomizers, Liquid Nicotine, DIY Flavorings

 

[Fulgurant]

I don't look at how much things cost a manufacturer to make when deciding upon a purchase. I look at what said item is worth to me. Quality e-juice is worth $1 or more/ml to me.

That's fair, and I agree. Quality e-juice is worth $1/ml to me too.

Or it would be, if I had any assurance that the $1/ml stuff is better than the other stuff. The problem is that there are so so many vendors out there selling the stuff for much less money, and given that tastes are heavily subjective -- given that I've found great juices and juices I've hated at every price point thus far -- there's no good reason for me to gravitate towards the more expensive stuff. The tried-and-true axiom, "You get what you pay for," doesn't seem to apply in any meaningful way to the e-juice industry.

The e-juice industry is the Wild West these days. By themselves, high-end prices are as likely to be a marketing tactic as they are to be any sort of guarantor of quality. And when we discuss quality, what we're really talking about is a tiny fraction of the juice's recipe, the flavoring portion. After all, if you're genuinely concerned about the quality of the remaining ~90% of the liquid (the PG/VG/Nicotine), then you've gone way beyond the traditional and relatively benign issue of consumer choice, and wandered into the realm of serious ethical/legal accusations.

For my part, I've never actually bought a juice at $1/mL. I don't think I've even seen one yet, though I won't object if and when I do see one. I can certainly understand why a B&M might charge that much, given that online vendors fairly often go as high as $0.70/mL. I started my vaping journey with a company (Halo) that charges somewhere around $0.67/mL, and I will continue to order from them, but I will also continue to explore flavors offered by reputable cheap vendors like Mt. Baker Vapor, which charges as little as ~$0.17/mL.

Quality is too subjective in this context for me to do otherwise. Your mileage may vary.

 

[ambientech]

This is so stupid I can't even respond. This is just...

Must have struck a nerve. What is hilarious is you have nothing to counter so you insult. You have been measured..... Have fun bashing vendors I have better things to do.

 

[Kropotkin]

I don't get the complaining... diy, fasttech, mbv are plenty cheap...

I don't get it either. There are cheap options galore.

Maybe this is just one more example of lousy economic times bringing out the worst in people. It's like those complaining simply can't stand the idea that somebody else might be making a decent living or paying their workers a living wage - even if this has absolutely no effect on them personally.

It's a fascinating phenomenon in a way, but also pretty depressing.

 

[Myk]

I don't get it either. There are cheap options galore.

Maybe this is just one more example of lousy economic times bringing out the worst in people. It's like those complaining simply can't stand the idea that somebody else might be making a decent living or paying their workers a living wage - even if this has absolutely no effect on them personally.

It's a fascinating phenomenon in a way, but also pretty depressing.

How do you figure being price gouged on an item the people are buying has absolutely no effect on them personally?
If you're getting away with charging $1/ml that will encourage others to charge that much.

So you think if I see someone being raped I should just go on my merry way because the rape doesn't have an effect on me personally? There are plenty of options to not get raped.
Yes, it's obviously not the actual rape that people have a problem with, it's the fact that the ...... is getting something they want.

I've never gone to a mall kiosk and never will, but you can bet I'll complain about kiosks selling $30 kits for $300.

 

[flowerpots]

How do you figure being price gouged on an item the people are buying has absolutely no effect on them personally?
If you're getting away with charging $1/ml that will encourage others to charge that much.

So you think if I see someone being raped I should just go on my merry way because the rape doesn't have an effect on me personally? There are plenty of options to not get raped.
Yes, it's obviously not the actual rape that people have a problem with, it's the fact that the ...... is getting something they want.

I've never gone to a mall kiosk and never will, but you can bet I'll complain about kiosks selling $30 kits for $300.

I'm not the poster you responded to, but I don't really understand your rape analogy here. People who have been raped had no choice, no option, or they would have chosen that. That is a strong analogy to use for purchasing a product that is expensive to you, over which you have complete control to pass by and buy from whatever vendor you want. There may be vendors out there that sell above the average cost per ml, but at least in my experience of buying these more expensive liquids, they more often than not offer a better tasting product with perks (nice pkg, quick shipping, etc.). There will always be the exception, but there will also always be choices as long as we are buying from a free market. Do some use shady or questionable business tactics/marketing? Maybe. But, again, we have a choice. I can see your point that a company raising their prices will encourage another company to do the same, at least sometimes. But, I don't think this will always be the case. As many pricier vendors as there are, there are still less expensive options out there. Vendors and really any small businesses will decide what market niche they want to cater to, and what they want to focus on (i.e. providing value products or wanting to provide for a select group).

Mall kiosks are the worst place to buy anything. I think anyone who buys from them has no clue or they would simply go elsewhere. It's likely an impulse purchase, but at least one that gets them into vaping and away from smoking. It has a place and in some respects, I think it's even good because the general public is exposed to vaping more this way. Granted, the smile behind the sale is likely one that says "Gotcha" and for that you can loathe them, and rightly so. But, most people who start there end up moving to other options, it seems.

I don't see vaping vendors as any different than any other small business type. The free market this industry has enjoyed has provided the full spectrum of options, at least starting more recently, to buyers. If company A is selling overpriced, mediocre products, people will catch on and they will not prosper. If they are prospering by selling higher priced items, someone obviously likes them and is willing to pay. If company B sells a value priced option, then that will pull in that sector of buyers. It's when regulations start that you will see the truth more fully exposed, I think. When there are fewer options because people have been run out of business and only a few remain, you will see more accurately what is behind a vendor's business tactics.

 

[stevegmu]

That's fair, and I agree. Quality e-juice is worth $1/ml to me too.

Or it would be, if I had any assurance that the $1/ml stuff is better than the other stuff. The problem is that there are so so many vendors out there selling the stuff for much less money, and given that tastes are heavily subjective -- given that I've found great juices and juices I've hated at every price point thus far -- there's no good reason for me to gravitate towards the more expensive stuff. The tried-and-true axiom, "You get what you pay for," doesn't seem to apply in any meaningful way to the e-juice industry.

The e-juice industry is the Wild West these days. By themselves, high-end prices are as likely to be a marketing tactic as they are to be any sort of guarantor of quality. And when we discuss quality, what we're really talking about is a tiny fraction of the juice's recipe, the flavoring portion. After all, if you're genuinely concerned about the quality of the remaining ~90% of the liquid (the PG/VG/Nicotine), then you've gone way beyond the traditional and relatively benign issue of consumer choice, and wandered into the realm of serious ethical/legal accusations.

For my part, I've never actually bought a juice at $1/mL. I don't think I've even seen one yet, though I won't object if and when I do see one. I can certainly understand why a B&M might charge that much, given that online vendors fairly often go as high as $0.70/mL. I started my vaping journey with a company (Halo) that charges somewhere around $0.67/mL, and I will continue to order from them, but I will also continue to explore flavors offered by reputable cheap vendors like Mt. Baker Vapor, which charges as little as ~$0.17/mL.

Quality is too subjective in this context for me to do otherwise. Your mileage may vary.

While I would buy juice at $1/ml, I exclusively vape Halo, Alice In Vapeland and have just gotten into ProVape juices. All are significantly less than $1/ml, but far higher than DIY or bargain vendors. These vendors I trust to use high quality ingredients and provide a juice that vapes and tastes the same every bottle I buy. So far, they have lived up to my preferences; others I have tried, haven't. Is it because they cost more than bargain vendors? Don't know, but I don't have a stockpile of juices I can't bring myself to vape, as many bargain shoppers seem to have.

 

[Kropotkin]

I'm not the poster you responded to, but I don't really understand your rape analogy here. People who have been raped had no choice, no option, or they would have chosen that. That is a strong analogy to use for purchasing a product that is expensive to you, over which you have complete control to pass by and buy from whatever vendor you want

Well, I am the poster s/he responded to, and I don't understand all this crazy, over-the-top hyperbole either. (It probably costs 67 cents to produce a box of Oreo cookies. Are people who buy them the broken, powerless victims of unspeakable crime? Good gravy.) It just doesn't make any sense.

And all this hand-wringing about "price gouging" hasn't been directed at kiosk venders anyway. People are having apoplectic fits about pretty much anything costlier than DIY and by-the-gallon Chinese imports - that is, about products many of us love to vape, and love to discuss here on the forum.

And it's the same deal with small edition mods and atties: the very existence of these items seems to drive people crazy, even though they themselves are perfectly free to by Chinese versions of the same stuff at rock bottom prices.

It's very strange!

 

[Fulgurant]

While I would buy juice at $1/ml, I exclusively vape Halo, Alice In Vapeland and have just gotten into ProVape juices. All are significantly less than $1/ml, but far higher than DIY or bargain vendors. These vendors I trust to use high quality ingredients and provide a juice that vapes and tastes the same every bottle I buy. So far, they have lived up to my preferences; others I have tried, haven't. Is it because they cost more than bargain vendors? Don't know, but I don't have a stockpile of juices I can't bring myself to vape, as many bargain shoppers seem to have.

Good post. On that last point (bolding mine), you may be right -- but please do also keep in mind that some people are pickier than others. For example, I myself have tried almost every Halo juice. I'm flat-out in love with 3 of them (Turkish Tobacco, Tribeca, Malibu), and I find another 2-3 acceptable. The rest I gave away, because they were literally of no use to me.

The chocolates particularly disagree with me, which is funny both because Halo is renowned for its chocolate flavors, and because I'm a total choco-holic in any other context -- but toss any chocolate flavor, made by any vendor, in a vaporizer and I start to dry heave. Don't get me wrong; Halo's version is perhaps the most accurate replication of chocolate that I can even imagine. I'm not knocking the juice's quality; I just hate the way it tastes.

I think that experience was what made me come to appreciate Mt. Baker -- the realization that I have no earthly clue what flavors should/would/might appeal to me without trying them first. At the very worst, MBV offers people who want to experiment with basic flavor profiles an opportunity to do so without breaking the bank. And a couple of MBV's more complex/opaque blends are really good, I've found. (Right now I'm a helpless Pink Champagne addict.)

And then you have vendors like She Who Must Not Be Named, who blithely charges premium-juice prices but offers only contemptuous disregard by way of customer service. Suffice to say that I wasn't impressed enough by the quality of her product ever to give her another dime.

Anyway, the point is that there are good-quality and trustworthy vendors out there at every price point. There are also potentially lots of disappointments at every price point. If what you buy works for you, then great. You sound like you're a little less picky about the unmeasurables than I am too, which is a good thing. I wouldn't assume that people who have lots of unvapable (to them) juice lying around are victims of bad quality control, though.

 

[fetalbounce]

I'm a consumer. It would be plain stupid of me to desire higher prices for items I consume.

I don't get it either. There are cheap options galore.

Maybe this is just one more example of lousy economic times bringing out the worst in people. It's like those complaining simply can't stand the idea that somebody else might be making a decent living or paying their workers a living wage - even if this has absolutely no effect on them personally.

It's a fascinating phenomenon in a way, but also pretty depressing.

 

[autobiogphnation]

Local shop I go to has their own liquid made for their shops only, 18.5ml bottle in 12mg costs between 12 and 15 dollars. Then the other liquid they have sells even cheaper, like 9 dollars. Pretty fair on the price if you ask me.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Myk]

I'm not the poster you responded to, but I don't really understand your rape analogy here. People who have been raped had no choice, no option, or they would have chosen that. That is a strong analogy to use for purchasing a product that is expensive to you, over which you have complete control to pass by and buy from whatever vendor you want. There may be vendors out there that sell above the average cost per ml, but at least in my experience of buying these more expensive liquids, they more often than not offer a better tasting product with perks (nice pkg, quick shipping, etc.). There will always be the exception, but there will also always be choices as long as we are buying from a free market. Do some use shady or questionable business tactics/marketing? Maybe. But, again, we have a choice. I can see your point that a company raising their prices will encourage another company to do the same, at least sometimes. But, I don't think this will always be the case. As many pricier vendors as there are, there are still less expensive options out there. Vendors and really any small businesses will decide what market niche they want to cater to, and what they want to focus on (i.e. providing value products or wanting to provide for a select group).

Mall kiosks are the worst place to buy anything. I think anyone who buys from them has no clue or they would simply go elsewhere. It's likely an impulse purchase, but at least one that gets them into vaping and away from smoking. It has a place and in some respects, I think it's even good because the general public is exposed to vaping more this way. Granted, the smile behind the sale is likely one that says "Gotcha" and for that you can loathe them, and rightly so. But, most people who start there end up moving to other options, it seems.

I don't see vaping vendors as any different than any other small business type. The free market this industry has enjoyed has provided the full spectrum of options, at least starting more recently, to buyers. If company A is selling overpriced, mediocre products, people will catch on and they will not prosper. If they are prospering by selling higher priced items, someone obviously likes them and is willing to pay. If company B sells a value priced option, then that will pull in that sector of buyers. It's when regulations start that you will see the truth more fully exposed, I think. When there are fewer options because people have been run out of business and only a few remain, you will see more accurately what is behind a vendor's business tactics.

You don't understand it because you're focusing on the rape instead of the "no effect on them personally".
I don't need to be personally effected by something to say it's wrong.
And even when I'm not directly effected I may be indirectly effected. As in the case of rape, if we allow people to get away with that eventually they will get around to effecting me with something I'm not a willing participant in.

You speak of free market working itself out but part of that free market is free speech and here you are (not you but others you are defending) complaining about others using their free speech to condemn certain practices within the free market to let others know they have other choices. Which is it?

Well, I am the poster s/he responded to, and I don't understand all this crazy, over-the-top hyperbole either. (It probably costs 67 cents to produce a box of Oreo cookies. Are people who buy them the broken, powerless victims of unspeakable crime? Good gravy.) It just doesn't make any sense.

And all this hand-wringing about "price gouging" hasn't been directed at kiosk venders anyway. People are having apoplectic fits about pretty much anything costlier than DIY and by-the-gallon Chinese imports - that is, about products many of us love to vape, and love to discuss here on the forum.

And it's the same deal with small edition mods and atties: the very existence of these items seems to drive people crazy, even though they themselves are perfectly free to by Chinese versions of the same stuff at rock bottom prices.

It's very strange!

Good thing I didn't use abortion as the analogy, which the majority of those against will never PERSONALLY be effected by. I'm sure you're really lose the PERSONALLY EFFECTED aspect with that topic.
Guess what, paying $1/ml fits the colloquialism of "being raped", the people paying it just don't know that's what's happening. I'm here to tell them that if I can buy DIY liquid at retail prices for 4.8¢/ml and they're paying $1/ml they're getting raped.

If you want to pay $300 for $10 worth of metal be my guest. But don't cry about it when I point out that it's $10 worth of material at retail prices and you just paid someone $290 labor to farm the work out to a machine shop.

I don't know of anyone here complaining about "costlier than DIY". Costlier is to be expected. The complaints are about how much costlier.
You're not saying it's OK to complain about kiosks are you?