Lounge Lizards / Misfits / Free Thinkers / Bohemians & the Forgotten :: Young at Heart Only

[DavidOck]

the weird thing was, early on in the power outage, it was like I was getting half voltage .. lights were dim but functional, air would not kick on, same with the hot water heater .. I immediately unplugged or turned the breaker off on anything but lights .. low or fluctuating voltage can kill an appliance

Yep, right thing to do. Sounds like something was dragging down the system before it tripped off. Good to have everything off/unplugged in case the fault goes away on its own, and the voltage spikes before the system stabilizes. Those spikes are the real killers of electronics. And, over time, motors.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Yep, right thing to do. Sounds like something was dragging down the system before it tripped off. Good to have everything off/unplugged in case the fault goes away on its own, and the voltage spikes before the system stabilizes. Those spikes are the real killers of electronics. And, over time, motors.

Yeah, and my experience is, a low to medium end 'surge suppressor' is a glorified extension cord .. a UPS is better, but that's not something that will help with HVAC / Refrigerator / etc ..

My deductible is a grand now-a-days .. if it was still $250 before State Farm raised it out of the kindness of their hearts, I might have just rolled the dice ..

And, the voltage will spike upon full restoration ..

 

[DavidOck]

Yeah, and my experience is, a low to medium end 'surge suppressor' is a glorified extension cord .. a UPS is better, but that's not something that will help with HVAC / Refrigerator / etc ..

My deductible is a grand now-a-days .. if it was still $250 before State Farm raised it out of the kindness of their hearts, I might have just rolled the dice ..

And, the voltage will spike upon full restoration ..

Yep, that it will.

Most distribution systems have high voltage switches here and there, where the power is routed around. Those switches are commonly "reclosers", and are typically set for 3 times. The idea is that if, say, a branch goes across one of the lines briefly, the fault will open the switch, which then closes back in. IF it was just a momentary fault, it stays closed and everybody is happy. If not, it opens, closes again, and if necessary, opens and stays open.

Sometimes, that example fault is just resistive enough that it doesn't trip the recloser at once, since the fault current isn't of such a magnitude to trip the breaker. So that phase is now at a very low voltage point.

And keep in mind that the amp rating on fuses and breakers (from your house panel up to the 240,000 volt ones on the main lines) is what the protective device will carry, well, forever. So a 20 amp breaker can carry all 20 amps all day, sort of. (Ambient temp is a factor.) But unless it's a special kind of fuse/breaker, it will also carry 25 amps for some time, often measured in minutes! So that might be what happened to you. (That same 20 amp breaker would likely trip instantly if looking at, say, 30 amps. "Proper" semiconductor fuses will open instantly at milli-amps over their rated load, btw.)

Yep, low end, especially. The only protection is a few MOV, metal oxide varistors, that essentially "short" the line to the neutral/ground if over the MOV voltage rating. And those MOVs do deteriorate over time. If you shake the power strip and hear any rattle, it's probably a fried and broken MOV rattling around. And time for the round file.

 

[Uncle Willie]

 

[Uncle Willie]

I have not bought any PG since before the pandemic .. need to get some .. sure looks like prices have really increased ..

 

[DavidOck]

Morning, all.

Another nice day here, although that may be changing as they turn the thermostat back up for the weekend. But, still, they only think we'll make the mid 80s, so not as hot as it was. We'll take it. (Doh, we don't have any choice! )

Yep, PG has gone up, even at Tractor Supply. Although their gallon at about $50 would last a long time....

 

[Uncle Willie]

Yep, PG has gone up, even at Tractor Supply. Although their gallon at about $50 would last a long time....

Hola ..

Yeah, saw that .. the last time I bought PG at TSC it was maybe $20 bucks or so .. I almost did not buy it there because the bottle said something about it being for cow udders, I think .. .. oh well, at least they are local and an easy pick-up ..

 

[DavidOck]

Yep, a variety of uses in animal husbandry. But it does have the "right" rating... And a gallon will last a long time

 

[pwmeek]

And keep in mind that the amp rating on fuses and breakers (from your house panel up to the 240,000 volt ones on the main lines) is what the protective device will carry, well, forever. So a 20 amp breaker can carry all 20 amps all day, sort of. (Ambient temp is a factor.) But unless it's a special kind of fuse/breaker, it will also carry 25 amps for some time, often measured in minutes! So that might be what happened to you. (That same 20 amp breaker would likely trip instantly if looking at, say, 30 amps. "Proper" semiconductor fuses will open instantly at milli-amps over their rated load, btw.)

The entire purpose of the home fuses or circuit breakers at your electrical panel is to keep the wires in your walls from overheating and starting a fire. Simply put: a circuit protected with a 15 Amp breaker is supposed to be wired with 14 gauge wire which can carry 15 amps all day, and 20 amps for a few minutes before it gets hot. Those breakers are not intended to (and won't) protect the devices plugged into the circuit, so they won't protect against over- or under-voltage (as long as the current remains in safe-for-wiring territory).

Brown-outs like you describe are worst for anything with a motor (pumps, fans, refrigeration) since 1/2 voltage delivers 1/4 power into a given load and the device is still under 100% load. This drives the current up and overheats the windings until the insulation breaks down. Motors can draw 2 to 4 times their rated current for a second or so on startup (too short a time to overheat), so they are fused for multiples of their normal runtime current. This means that the fuse/breaker won't protect against the excess current caused by a brownout (remember, the fuses are to protect the wiring, not the devices).

 

[DavidOck]

Morning, all.

Another nice day here, although still no rain. Guess we in the PNW better hide from the rest of the country.

The entire purpose of the home fuses or circuit breakers at your electrical panel is to keep the wires in your walls from overheating and starting a fire.

Quite so! End devices are on their own. Hence the need for good surge strips, unless one wants to go to the expense of a whole house protector. And why some consumer electronics do have internal fuses, to protect themselves.

 

[pwmeek]

Hola ..

Yeah, saw that .. the last time I bought PG at TSC it was maybe $20 bucks or so .. I almost did not buy it there because the bottle said something about it being for cow udders, I think .. .. oh well, at least they are local and an easy pick-up ..

Fortunately, I will never need to buy PG since I get my nicotine base in 100% PG. I just have to add enough VG to bring it down from 10% nicotine to 6.5% nicotine and it's ready to vape. (Currently, it's a bit more complicated than that since I have a lot of nic base at 5% in a 50-50 mix to use up. I add two parts of my 5-50-50 to one part of 10-100PG to achieve the same final mix of 6.5-68-32. Once the 5-50-50 is gone I will revert to the simpler formula.)
I recently discovered that WizardLabs has gone out of business, so when I decided that I might outlive my supply of nic base, I was forced to look for a new supplier. Central Vapors out of McKinney, TX was able to fill my order of 3 liters of 10% in PG for $400 plus tax and shipping. Since I only use about one millionth of a liter of nicotine each day (~1 milligram), that should add a few decades to my stash. I also recently found a place with nine 5-packs in stock of Evolv nickel BVC for my Nautilus tanks; no point in giving the name since I bought all they had. At two or three coils per year, this also extends my supply considerably in case they all get banned by some nanny government.

 

[Rat2chat2]

the last time I bought PG at TSC it was maybe $20 bucks or so

I just bought a gallon of PG and a gallon on VG from Essential Depot on 04-02-2022. It was only $54.34. I find that very reasonable because the last time I bought it there on 02-19-2014 I paid $54.49. So it went down. heehee I absolutely love my lists.

 

[Rat2chat2]

Another nice day here

Well I should hope so since it's your birthday. Big HBD hug to you!

 

[LovesButtercups]

I have a question for you electrical folks!

Let’s say there is an emergency, and someone has flipped the main breaker off. Things were on in the building at the time like lights, computers, heating units, etc but no heavy equipment or anything out of the ordinary. Is it true that just flipping the main breaker back on (without first flipping all the other breakers off, THEN turning the main breaker back on, and then the other breakers back on one at a time) can cause a fire? If so, then how is it different than the power coming back on after an outage?

I ask because we had an emergency at work several years ago involving a broken gas line and a gas heater that was trying its best to ignite. I flipped the main breaker off, and after the gas was taken care of and the building was cleared for us to go back in and get to work, I flipped the main breaker back on. My boss, who was out of town at the time, chewed me out afterwards because he said just flipping the main breaker back on like that could have caused something to short circuit and burn the building down. But, if that’s the case, why doesn’t he turn off all the breakers when the power goes out so that nothing causes a fire when the power comes back on? Is there a difference in voltage etc between restoration of power to the lines vs. turning on the main breaker? (I hope that question made sense lol)

Clearly I don’t know much about that sort of thing, but (HEAVEN FORBID) there are any future emergencies, I just wondered if he was right about that.

 

[Nermal]

Since I don't actually know, I would have done exactly what you did.

 

[DavidOck]

Morning, all.

Seems they're turning the heat back up, for a couple days. Still not like so much of the rest of the country...

I have a question for you electrical folks!

Let’s say there is an emergency, and someone has flipped the main breaker off. Things were on in the building at the time like lights, computers, heating units, etc but no heavy equipment or anything out of the ordinary. Is it true that just flipping the main breaker back on (without first flipping all the other breakers off, THEN turning the main breaker back on, and then the other breakers back on one at a time) can cause a fire? If so, then how is it different than the power coming back on after an outage?

I ask because we had an emergency at work several years ago involving a broken gas line and a gas heater that was trying its best to ignite. I flipped the main breaker off, and after the gas was taken care of and the building was cleared for us to go back in and get to work, I flipped the main breaker back on. My boss, who was out of town at the time, chewed me out afterwards because he said just flipping the main breaker back on like that could have caused something to short circuit and burn the building down. But, if that’s the case, why doesn’t he turn off all the breakers when the power goes out so that nothing causes a fire when the power comes back on? Is there a difference in voltage etc between restoration of power to the lines vs. turning on the main breaker? (I hope that question made sense lol)

Clearly I don’t know much about that sort of thing, but (HEAVEN FORBID) there are any future emergencies, I just wondered if he was right about that.

In general, NO. As you correctly surmise, it usually doesn't start a fire when power comes back after an outage, where, basically, nobody has turned off the main breaker.

More specifically, if the cause of the outage was INside the building (bad enough to trip the main!) , turning all the breakers off before turning the main back on does make sense. When you turn on the faulted circuit it should trip and you'll have an idea where the problem is.

Otoh, if enough load is put on the system when it's trying to close back in, it might cause problems, but not likely to be in the home / business, rather in the distribution. The surge load might be enough to trip that back out. For that reason, power companies often recommend that, during an outage, most load is turned off, although the device switches are enough for that. (Leave one light on so you know when the power is back.) Motor loads will automatically default to OFF when the power goes away, and will stay off until manually turned on, so no problems there.

Any time there is a huge and sudden increase in load on the line - and after an outage it's trying to pick up the whole load all at once! - the delivered voltage will droop briefly. If it drops too far, it will trip out again. Ever see your mod drop voltage after a long pull, then pop back up after releasing the fire button? Same kind of thing happens on the line. But they do have better regulation

Good thinking to kill ALL the power with a gas leak!

 

[Janet H]

@DavidOck

Sorry I missed it, but hope you had a wonderful memorable day!!

 

[DavidOck]

Thanks, all.

Well, at this point, not really looking for "memorable" days Relaxed and laid back is fine and it was that.

 

[Janet H]

Good morning everybody. Just a fly-by to say hello.

We had our 2 grandsons here for this week. Mike took them fishing and we spent a hot day at the zoo and they had a blast in the pool. We went to our daughter's house for a b-day party for her oldest yesterday so we turned the boys back over to their parents. Whew! They were so good all week, but we're exhausted and happy to have our quiet house back today.

It's funny some would mention closet cleanout .. I went thru one clothes closet a couple weeks ago and weened out a good load .. you know, if you have not worn it in 20 years, it's probably time for it to go ..

I found my pair of Vasque Mountaineering Boots that I wore when I backpacked through Rocky Mountain National Park / Yosemite and Yellowstone around 100 years ago .. they had held up well .. no plans to put them back into service .. but they did bring back some great memories ..

These boots were expensive, even 100 years ago .. I don't know if they are still in business or not .. they were made in Italy .. but, one of the top rules of backpacking is 'Protect Your Feet or You're Screwed ..'

Love the boots Willie. They look like they've had some great use! The laces don't look as well worn as the boots though. Funny how something as mundane as a pair of boots can bring back so many memories.

 

[rosesense]

Happy belated @david sorry I missed it, was frantically cleaning and getting dogs out for a showing yesterday. Anyone ever tried being in the car for over 2 hours in 102 heat with 3 dogs, 2 whining and one being car sick?