Makers of Marlboro Laying Off Workers to Invest in More Vaping

[MyMagicMist]

That's why I think systems with pre-filled cartos/cartridges will not be the norm. In AR here where they passed the laws about online eliquid sales, that INCLUDES any device that has eliquid "in" it. Yet, hardware, all hardware of every kind, is totally okay to order online (as long as it doesn't have eliquid in it or on it). As a matter of fact, I asked the attorney for the ATC to explain to a few online companies who wouldn't sell me hardware, to EXPLAIN the law to them. And, he did.

They want to have bottles of eliquid with lot numbers on the shelves, inventories, so it can be taxed in 2 years from now. That is the plan. So they want you to have hardware to USE it in. That is how I got to thinking that the regs will see hardware as very separate. Because our Governor is "hooked up", homeland security and all that, he knows what he's doing when it comes to making tax $$ off vaping. I have a feeling he knows the 411 with regard to what's coming.

Have you ever seen a movie titled Kid Co.?

I ask because it illustrates something basic regarding taxes. Actually did some poking and saw what they suggest fictionally, is a realistic case and true.

In summary kids sell horse manure as fertilizer. The big fertilizer company comes at the kids hard. Finally, there is a trial regarding tax payment. The kids point out the family has paid tax on the feed, land, stables to provide for the end result, the dung. They're not required to pay tax on the dung as it's a normally unwanted by product.

Well, if people DIY with their juices, they already pay taxes on the supplies used to create juices. How can they be taxed again beyond maybe a sales/selling tax? Far as I'm aware nicotine is not a controlled substance, in the sense that it needs prescribed only and absolutely by a doctor. If you buy it from somewhere, do you not pay sales tax? Same with PG&VG, flavors.

Just some thought, all standard disclaimers apply ...

 

[MyMagicMist]

I don't think there is going to be Any Products that will not have to go the PMTA route.

For a Product to go down the Substantial Equivalence route, it would have to do this...

Substantial Equivalence Application (Section 905j report) for products substantially equivalent to an existing tobacco product,

• It requires a Substantial Equivalence Report:
  • demonstrating that the product is identical to the product marketed before February 15, 2007 or,
  • demonstrating an equivalent product has already been approved by the FDA (“predicated product”)
• Actions the manufacturer has taken to comply with any applicable standards (none are applicable to vaping products at present).

USA: FDA’s Deeming Rule explained by an expert


BTW - If anyone has not seen Patricia Kovacevic's FDA Regulations webinar, I Highly Recommend it.

Interesting: "The term 'tobacco product' does not mean an article that is a drug, a device, or a combination product."

What I take from this is that if nicotine is defined as a drug, it is not a tobacco product. I also see that our atomizers would be defined as devices. Putting nicotine together with devices, creates a combination product. Hm ....

Awe fiddlesticks, had to keep watching ...

 

[sofarsogood]

On the topic, the tobacco companies know what we know, cigarettes are doomed. I don't think they are as upset about that as some might think. It's the governments, who skim off most of the money, who aren't getting it.

The tobacco companies' strength is their vast distribution system. The weakness is it's all cash and carry and the real ecig market isn't a good fit for that at this point. The tobacco companies know that too. Can they adjust and get their share of the market? I don't think they can answer that yet. Governments are the villians this time, not the tobacco companies.

 

[skoony]

All the Major Tobacco Giants have an e-Cigarette. Albeit, crumby ones by Free Market Standards.

Good point zioD however, after the deeming regs won't their de facto crappy
products become the premium brands with FDA approval?
Regards
mike

 

[Toronnah]

Tobacco companies should focus on juice, not hardware. They are chemical processing companies, not electronics companies.

There is a plus in buying genuine Marlboro juice from Philip Morris. Tons of brand equity they are not tapping into.

 

[SeniorBoy]

Boys and Girls,

I'm still in the CEO chair and head honcho at Vuse. I thought you might wish to see what we are working on.

"VUSE Fob: Uses existing VUSE cartridges that retract into the unit, which has a screen to display battery and cartridge status levels. It also works with the VUSE app to allow the user to enable child-lock settings and track cartridge usage.

VUSE Port: Liquid tank system that uses a Dock & Lock system to refill the device. The closed system prevents users from opening the top or the tank. To refill, the port and bottle must be locked together."

And much much more!

"Vuse is available in more than 100,000 retail outlets nationwide.

Wells Fargo Securities analyst Bonnie Herzog estimates that overall industry e-cig revenue will increase up to $10 billion by 2017.

She also predicts Reynolds will have $4 billion in revenue from e-cigs in 2021, compared with $3.9 billion from traditional cigarettes. That's compared with minimal e-cig revenue and $6.4 billion in traditional cigarette revenue for 2013.

Reynolds committed in May 2014 to adding 200 jobs at its 2 million-square-foot Tobaccoville plant as part of ramping up production of Vuse beyond a contractor facility in Kansas. It plans to add 70,000 square feet of production space. It said the ramp-up could take up to four years."

Source

Good luck and best wishes to our competition! /sar

 

[zoiDman]

That's why I think systems with pre-filled cartos/cartridges will not be the norm. In AR here where they passed the laws about online eliquid sales, that INCLUDES any device that has eliquid "in" it. Yet, hardware, all hardware of every kind, is totally okay to order online (as long as it doesn't have eliquid in it or on it). As a matter of fact, I asked the attorney for the ATC to explain to a few online companies who wouldn't sell me hardware, to EXPLAIN the law to them. And, he did.

They want to have bottles of eliquid with lot numbers on the shelves, inventories, so it can be taxed in 2 years from now. That is the plan. So they want you to have hardware to USE it in. That is how I got to thinking that the regs will see hardware as very separate. Because our Governor is "hooked up", homeland security and all that, he knows what he's doing when it comes to making tax $$ off vaping. I have a feeling he knows the 411 with regard to what's coming.

Its just hard to say What direction the e-Cigarette Market will go based on what States are doing. Because I think if you are Able to talk with State Policy Makers, they will tell you that what is driving them Coo Coo for Cocoa Puffs is the FDA's lack of Timely Action. So States have had to Fend for themselves without Clear Guidance from the Feds.

People also needs to consider what the Transition Period will look like from when Deeming is Finalized to when the e-Cigarette Market is Fully Regulated. And How Long that transition period may be.

Not Including Hardware into a piece of State Legislation is Great. As long as there is No Federal Regulation that would Supersede State Law. And this is what States want. Challenges done on the Federal Level. Not in their individual State.

 

[zoiDman]

Good point zioD however, after the deeming regs won't their de facto crappy
products become the premium brands with FDA approval?
Regards
mike

It Isn't all that hard to have Market Share, even with a Crumby Product, if your product is "As Good as it Gets" in a Regulated Market.

And there is No Reason that I can think of to Not submit a PMTA for something like the Vuse. If RJ Reynolds didn't think that in a Fully Regulated Market (both in the USA and in other Markets) the Vuse wasn't going to be Competitive, they would Not have Spent the Money to Develop it.

 

[Vaslovik]

They want to have bottles of eliquid with lot numbers on the shelves, inventories, so it can be taxed in 2 years from now. That is the plan. So they want you to have hardware to USE it in. That is how I got to thinking that the regs will see hardware as very separate. Because our Governor is "hooked up", homeland security and all that, he knows what he's doing when it comes to making tax $$ off vaping. I have a feeling he knows the 411 with regard to what's coming.

So, what about those of us who DIY? Are they going to make the sale of nicotine to us illegal? Seems to me that BT wants to own vaping since they can't stop it.

 

[Toronnah]

So, what about those of us who DIY? Are they going to make the sale of nicotine to us illegal? Seems to me that BT wants to own vaping since they can't stop it.

Perhaps they do make it illegal, just like it's illegal to make booze at home.

 

[Vaslovik]

Perhaps they do make it illegal, just like it's illegal to make booze at home.

It's worth noting that making booze at home is a good deal easier than making nicotine at home.

 

[YoursTruli]

I feel (pretty) sure online sales of eliquid and nicotine will be the first causality followed quickly (if not before) by nicotine becoming a controlled substance that the average person will not be able to buy.

 

[Racehorse]

Perhaps they do make it illegal, just like it's illegal to make booze at home.

Homebrewing was federally legalized in 1978 (beer/wine) ...in every state. 100 gal per year per person.

Distilling is a whole 'nother story, aka moonshine. Mostly because you can blow up stuff, and/or poison somebody if not done right.

 

[zoiDman]

I feel (pretty) sure online sales of eliquid and nicotine will be the first causality followed quickly (if not before) by nicotine becoming a controlled substance that the average person will not be able to buy.

Yeah... I think the days of being able to Purchase Unlimited Nicotine mg's are Numbered.

 

[Toronnah]

Homebrewing was federally legalized in 1978 (beer/wine) ...in every state. 100 gal per year per person.

Distilling is a whole 'nother story, aka moonshine.

This is what I'm talking about. If pressed by a law enforcement agent, you will need to show a juice bottle with a tax band on it similar to those on cigarettes and alcohol.

 

[YoursTruli]

Oh, I realize the regs have basically been written for them to fit right in. But, it sounds like they're expecting an increase in sales. Maybe they expect us to switch to theirs? Lol!

They may have thought such case would be. I think they are finding out they're grasping at a large could be only to come up fistfuls of won't be happening.

As far as I am aware disposables, cigalikes, egos and the like still rule the market share so I would not be too sure about that. Sales in that market segment are brisk now and growing. A large percentage of advanced or longer term users still use this type of equipment in addition to or in place of the more advanced gear and if they become the only game in town sales would only increase.

 

[AndriaD]

Actually, you are an excellent candidate for a squonker and non afc Cyclone . Not all squonkers are expensive. And Cyclones show up in the classys pretty often. I bet you would love it.

If you were in my area, I would let you try it.

It does sound tempting. Especially if I could find a squonk mod that was regulated, and I know they make those nowadays; I kinda got over mechanicals after I got a couple of 'em for vapocalypse prep. Until/unless they're really needed, I really prefer regulated mods. Maybe instead of acquiring several more regular regulated mods this year, I'll see about a squonk mod; I've heard that a couple of the BF attys have pretty tight draw, and that's really the main thing, along with super-intense flavor, that I want from a vape -- hence my love of Achilles.

Andria

 

[roxynoodle]

It does sound tempting. Especially if I could find a squonk mod that was regulated, and I know they make those nowadays; I kinda got over mechanicals after I got a couple of 'em for vapocalypse prep. Until/unless they're really needed, I really prefer regulated mods. Maybe instead of acquiring several more regular regulated mods this year, I'll see about a squonk mod; I've heard that a couple of the BF attys have pretty tight draw, and that's really the main thing, along with super-intense flavor, that I want from a vape -- hence my love of Achilles.

Andria

The Kangxin Inoy from Focalecig . Cheap ($42), chip works well, no leaks, no logo one is attractive enough, decently made. I know you aren't interested in tc, but should you try it again, it works quite well. It also uses normal 10ml bottles. I plan to buy a second one when I can.

 

[roxynoodle]

So, what about those of us who DIY? Are they going to make the sale of nicotine to us illegal? Seems to me that BT wants to own vaping since they can't stop it.

Getting nicotine in a regulated market will likely be the biggest hurdle. I do expect online sales to be abolished, and perhaps all sales to non licensed individuals. In anticipation I have stocked up. Now its wait and see. Future vapers may be stuck with BT cigalikes as their only option, sadly. I just can't afford to buy and store nic for every smoker I know who may decide s/he wants to switch to vaping. If they wanted to buy their own nic, I would make them juice, but so far everyone I know wants me to buy it for them(of course).

 

[Vaslovik]

Getting nicotine in a regulated market will likely be the biggest hurdle. I do expect online sales to be abolished, and perhaps all sales to non licensed individuals. In anticipation I have stocked up. Now its wait and see. Future vapers may be stuck with BT cigalikes as their only option, sadly. I just can't afford to buy and store nic for every smoker I know who may decide s/he wants to switch to vaping. If they wanted to buy their own nic, I would make them juice, but so far everyone I know wants me to buy it for them(of course).

I think we may anticipate a black market in nicotine in the future.