MBV pulls cinnamon juices
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Thanks for the help on vanillin, I should have thrown out my concerns knowing the publisher of this "study". I'm aware of TFA Vanilla Bean Ice Cream containing Acetyl Propionyl, and that some but not all cream/custard/butter flavors containing diacetyl. Moot point really, especially to the topic raised by the OP. Apologies, I blame the "study".
Also, thanks for linking and quoting the information provided by Dr. Farsalinos. Prue Talbot was already on my poop list. I don't care for cinnamon vapes personally, but hopefully MBV and others will get a wake up call soon. Causes of hysteria deserve a long, hard look... no matter the topic.
Also, thanks for linking and quoting the information provided by Dr. Farsalinos. Prue Talbot was already on my poop list. I don't care for cinnamon vapes personally, but hopefully MBV and others will get a wake up call soon. Causes of hysteria deserve a long, hard look... no matter the topic.
Useless fear-mongering? I hope not.
The one thing I'd like eliquid manufacturers to do is LABELING; I'd like to know when an eliquid contains cinnamon or any of the diacetyl replacements so that I can make my own choice. I also think PG/VG should be on the label.
I think this would benefit eliquid manufacturers too. If these items are mentioned then it's my choice. If they aren't mention, they probably need to be concerned about liability since I didn't have "choice".
I tend to react strongly to cinnamon. Recently I got another eliquid with cinnamon in it, not mentioned in the description, not mentioned anywhere. It's frustrating. I expect that from corporations, not from eliquid manufacturers. The more transparency, the better.
The one thing I'd like eliquid manufacturers to do is LABELING; I'd like to know when an eliquid contains cinnamon or any of the diacetyl replacements so that I can make my own choice. I also think PG/VG should be on the label.
I think this would benefit eliquid manufacturers too. If these items are mentioned then it's my choice. If they aren't mention, they probably need to be concerned about liability since I didn't have "choice".
I tend to react strongly to cinnamon. Recently I got another eliquid with cinnamon in it, not mentioned in the description, not mentioned anywhere. It's frustrating. I expect that from corporations, not from eliquid manufacturers. The more transparency, the better.
Could some of you beautiful & intelligent posters come help out on the other thread. Appreciated! http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/494609-research-cinnamon-cytotoxic.html
Good thread. I'm copying from that thread the comment Dr. Farsalinos had published today..
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Created on Thursday, 21 November 2013 17:51
Cinnamon flavours in e-cigarettes: how inappropriate research can misinform the public and the (amateur) professionals
By Dr Farsalinos
Considerable debate has been focused on the issue of cinnamon flavors after a study was published in a toxicology journal declaring that such flavored liquids are cytotoxic. Just one month ago, a study published by our group also found that a cinnamon-flavored liquid was slightly cytotoxic (although still 10 times less toxic that tobacco smoke). I have already sent a letter to the editor of Toxicology in Vitro raising concerns about the latest study they published on cinnamon, however due to significant misinformation spread throughout the social media, I decided to publish this comment.
First of all, it was surprising to see a vendor removing cinnamon flavors from his sales list. According to a well-known e-cigarette activist, When a juice maker that fills thousands of bottles a day does this - you should listen. My response to this is: If the juice maker who fills thousands of bottles a day knew what he was doing, he should have found out about it before any research was published. What I mean is that makers have no idea about the cytotoxicity of their products. They are doing no research, so how would they know? But it is even worse that they are making such moves (to remove cinnamon flavors) without even reading (or understanding) the research they quote.
Let me explain. The latest study by Talbots group discussed about the cytotoxicity of cinnamon flavors in e-cigarette. Interestingly however, IF SOMEONE READS THE PAPER, he will find that the researchers never used any e-cigarette. Moreover, they never produced vapor! They tested the liquids in liquid form, not in vapor. How can you support that the results have implications for e-cigarette users when no e-cigarette was used and no vapor was produced? However, there is a bigger mistake. The authors mentioned that they tested 8 refill liquids with cinnamon flavor. They mention the names of the liquids and the companies they got them from. After personally searching on the internet and communicating with some companies, I found out that 4 of the samples were concentrated flavors, not refills. The authors themselves found cinnamaldehyde (the substance giving the cinnamon flavor in the liquid) at levels that differed between samples by up to 100 times. This confirms what I found: some of their samples were concentrated flavors.
Finally, there is still another problem in their study. They tested the substance itself (cinnamaldehyde) to see how toxic it is. They found it toxic at levels 400 times lower than currently approved for food use. This is a very strange result and it is hard to explain how regulatory authorities have accepted cinnamaldehyde to be available at such high levels (of course, before the approval, several tests were performed and it was not found toxic).The authors have to explain why their findings contradict previous research.
As I mentioned above, a letter to the editor has been sent and is currently evaluated for publication. In short, the results of this study have nothing to do with e-cigarette use and are more applicable to cinnamon use in food (since they tested the liquid in liquid form and they used several concentrated samples). Besides that, the reactions from manufacturers show that, unfortunately, they cannot accept their ignorance and instead of asking an expert so that they get informed, they react in a way that produces panic to vapers, does nothing to protect consumers and only results in a game of public relations tactics. This is even more unfortunate than the mistakes in the research protocol. As a final note, let's not forget that research has shown cinnamon to have anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidant and maybe anti-cancer properties...
More BS. Does it ever stop? Cinnamon is known irritant, some acidic fruit flavors also. People with allergies are more sensitive to those. Doesn't mean it's going to kill you. Common sense if it irritates, don't use it.
Which means that common sense then decrees that we shouldn't use any of Talbot's "scientific" studies as they irritate.
Which means that common sense then decrees that we shouldn't use any of Talbot's "scientific" studies as they irritate.
How could this post not make one chuckle? Good one.
Funny thing I just received probably the last batch of Cinnamon Roll from MBV yesterday! Still gonna vape it anyways LOL
Well I already posted this in another thread earlier, but it really should have been here:
I've now got 3 out of my 5 AROs filled with Cinnamon Roll, Sticky Bun, and Dutch Apple Pie. The other 2 have American Tobacco and Butterscotch. All are MBV. I guess I'm a rebel.
PS- ......Dolphin!
and I have been vaping the crap out of some Cinnamon Roll for a few hours now this evening. Born on 10/4 man it is yummy. nom nom nom
I've now got 3 out of my 5 AROs filled with Cinnamon Roll, Sticky Bun, and Dutch Apple Pie. The other 2 have American Tobacco and Butterscotch. All are MBV. I guess I'm a rebel.
PS- ......Dolphin!
and I have been vaping the crap out of some Cinnamon Roll for a few hours now this evening. Born on 10/4 man it is yummy. nom nom nom
Well I already posted this in another thread earlier, but it really should have been here:
I've now got 3 out of my 5 AROs filled with Cinnamon Roll, Sticky Bun, and Dutch Apple Pie. The other 2 have American Tobacco and Butterscotch. All are MBV. I guess I'm a rebel.
PS- ......Dolphin!
and I have been vaping the crap out of some Cinnamon Roll for a few hours now this evening. Born on 10/4 man it is yummy. nom nom nom
Please sir, step away from the cinnamon and put your hands behind you back.
Some do and some don't. The best policy is to ask the vendor about it before making a purchase. That goes for anything in juice you might have an issue with like PG/VG content if they don't say or, in my case for instance, aspartame used for sweetening. A good vendor (or maybe all depending on the State and licensing) will have a list of ingredients for every flavoring (or juice) they use that is comprehensive. We consumers just get "flavorings" listed as ingredients but they have a list of contents in that flavoring.
I don't order from online vendors for various reasons - mostly that I have a fabulous local blocks away from my house that I trust implicitly. however, I would not stop ordering from a company who was simply trying to take care and caution with their customer base by being preventive in selling something that has at least some substantial backing supporting being possibly toxic. I stayed away from cinnamon because I had heard it can damage tanks, which made me think that didn't bode to well for my body either.
None of us really know for sure what chemicals in vaping are potentially dangerous or deadly. But I can assure you that I personally can't live my life ruminating over what will or can cause cancer. Everything in our world has that potential these days, from viruses to toxins. heck, some doctors believe that some cancers can be started from the common cold gone haywire. I heed warnings and base my decisions from that point. No cinnamon for me. Fine. They are hundreds of other flavors out there. And I applaud a company that will be forthcoming with concern rather than just try to make some money by abiding by the "what they don't know won't hurt them" philosophy.
None of us really know for sure what chemicals in vaping are potentially dangerous or deadly. But I can assure you that I personally can't live my life ruminating over what will or can cause cancer. Everything in our world has that potential these days, from viruses to toxins. heck, some doctors believe that some cancers can be started from the common cold gone haywire. I heed warnings and base my decisions from that point. No cinnamon for me. Fine. They are hundreds of other flavors out there. And I applaud a company that will be forthcoming with concern rather than just try to make some money by abiding by the "what they don't know won't hurt them" philosophy.
You know, I don't know what I think about MBV pulling cinnamon flavors. Perhaps a warning would have been enough.
As for me, I've got 236 ml of Cinnamon Roll in my freezer and I'm not sure what I'll do with it. I've never had any problems with this flavor, and it's quite tasty. If it get to the point that it's the only juice I have, I'll certainly vape it before I smoke -- no doubt about that! But I'll probably leave it in my apocalypse reserve.
Regular MBV Cinnamon is another matter, though. I just bought 50 ml of it for the first time recently, since I had never tried it and I like cinnamon. And I really loved the taste, mixed 50/50 with MBV Red Apple and some other flavors. But... it was really, really, really rough on my throat and lungs, even diluted. And that was weeks ago, before this whole kerfuffle, so it wasn't psychosomatic on my part. I'm going to be getting rid of this particular juice, but only because it makes me suffer.
As for me, I've got 236 ml of Cinnamon Roll in my freezer and I'm not sure what I'll do with it. I've never had any problems with this flavor, and it's quite tasty. If it get to the point that it's the only juice I have, I'll certainly vape it before I smoke -- no doubt about that! But I'll probably leave it in my apocalypse reserve.
Regular MBV Cinnamon is another matter, though. I just bought 50 ml of it for the first time recently, since I had never tried it and I like cinnamon. And I really loved the taste, mixed 50/50 with MBV Red Apple and some other flavors. But... it was really, really, really rough on my throat and lungs, even diluted. And that was weeks ago, before this whole kerfuffle, so it wasn't psychosomatic on my part. I'm going to be getting rid of this particular juice, but only because it makes me suffer.
This is the truth of the matter.
The problem is that science has one set of priorities and journalism has another, and the are often mutually exclusive.
At the heart of it, science's goal is to determine, with as much certainty as possible, just how likely something is to be true. That requires many, many studies of a given phenomenon. Each study that shows the same thing adds evidence that the original finding wasn't a fluke, a mistake, a result of bad equipment or experimental design, a misinterpretation, etc. After a certain point we can feel confident that what's being researched is true.
Journalism's goal is to sell ads and news product. That means that what journalism thrives from is scoops, dramatic headlines, stories that personally affect consumers, fear mongering, etc. Even the best journalism falls prey to this. The NYT can very responsibly headline with something like "Study shows citrus fruit, cancer link" because... a study showed that! So they're telling the truth.
And they feel no obligation to say something like "This study is supported by no previous research, and it has not been determined whether it suffers from methodological shortcomings, misinterpretation, data dredging, contaminated lab equipment or other errors". That's a class in scientific method, and the media feel --rightly, when it comes down to it-- that a news story is not the place to supplement or repeat lessons from high school.
And so it goes... the conflict between science and journalism will undoubtedly never end, because it has its roots in the very foundations of each of these disciplines.
It should be noted that with a research study or not, real science or not, some people (like me) stay away from cinnamon (cinnamaldehyde and eugenol, which Ms.T and others use) because of first-hand encounters with very negative reactions. Frankly, I couldn't care less what the science says about it and didn't know until after I had nasty reactions--if a flavor makes my lungs and throat hurt with intense inflammation, that's all the science I need.
I do think that "regular" cinnamon is completely different than cinnamaldehyde isolate as cinnamaldehyde isolate is approximately 2% of "regular" ground cinnamon bark. I have vaped a cinnamon roll flavor with zero reaction as the small addition of regular cinnamon flavor is in such a low quantity that the 2% cinammldehyde is virtually non-existent.
I do think that "regular" cinnamon is completely different than cinnamaldehyde isolate as cinnamaldehyde isolate is approximately 2% of "regular" ground cinnamon bark. I have vaped a cinnamon roll flavor with zero reaction as the small addition of regular cinnamon flavor is in such a low quantity that the 2% cinammldehyde is virtually non-existent.
"I don't order from online vendors for various reasons"
"None of us really know for sure what chemicals in vaping are potentially dangerous or deadly"
You made some very good points, but the lines above got me thinking... There are some extremely well educated on-line vendors who are masters of their craft. They understand chemistry fundamentals and will tell you exactly what you're vaping; a few vendors to the molecule.
I trust a hand-full of select on-line vendors much more than I would any local B&M. More often then not, local B&M's only mix liquids made by others- and..many will say anything to make a sale- On a recent visit to a local store, the clerk told me that their juice was 100% organic because they it made with VG not PG; that the PG sold at other local stores was toxic and that PG is a component of anti-freeze. Many B&M's employ uninformed clerks who are taught to say keywords like organic, natural, healthy, USA, etc.... Not all are like this, but many, many that I've seen first hand are.
Words have meaning.... there is something very definitive and clear when a vendor discloses his/her components and toxicity risk in words on a website; a promise of sorts has been made to the consumer.
As consumers, the golden rule applies to both on-line and B&M vendors: buyer beware.... it is up to us to question claims made by juice vendors; we're all we have in an otherwise unregulated market- and I hope it stays that way.
Just my 2 cents...
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