Mech vs Mech Box

[TheKman]

It seems to me there is a little misinformation here. I'd like to clear it up if I can.

1) 26000 series batteries have a higher internal resistance than 18000 series. While this may be true, it has little to do with the size and more to do with development of the chemistry. Any given cell has to make a trade-off between energy storage (specific energy) and energy delivery (specific power). It may be that the larger cells have been tuned for capacity rather than power. You'll note that all of the real batteries with higher capacity have a lower current limit.The reverse is also true. Recently the improvements in chemistry have raised both to an extent. Choose a battery system based on specs, not generalisations.

2) you can build an atomizer with a basically good coil setup and it will work on a mech. Unfortunately there is a lot to know about electronics before this becomes possible. Most people learn what works through trial and error, but it's possible to design a coil system if you have some basic tools.

My experience? Kanthal has a high resistance and requires heavy gauge wire to draw enough power, this means more surface area and mass, which makes it inefficient. Two cell series is a simple way to overcome this, but introduces greater complexity when charging. Titanium seems to me to be a good balance for single cell systems; lower resistance per mass is easier for lower voltages.

If you can state in simple terms what you want to achieve I'm sure I can make it happen. Want 70W from your 18650 tube mech? I can help you do that.

 

[Outcast]

Maybe just my opinion, but pulse ratings shouldn't really be considered the safe current rating for a battery. Much safer to run based on continuous discharge ratings. The MNKE 26650 allows builds down conservatively to 0.4 ohm; supposedly the Sony 26650VT is good to 0.1 ohm. Also, battery diameter has little effect on current ratings, some 26650's have higher discharge ratings than some 18650's, and vice-versa.

For a super solid and economical set up look at the Cartel Boss mod clone. I have one I run with a Magma 30 mM RDA, a Fat Buddha 30 mM RDA, and a Big Buddha 30 mM RTA. All run nice on the Boss mod.

The MNKE 26650 battery is a 25amp good to .2 that's ware I run with mine

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[entropy1049]

The MNKE 26650 battery is a 25amp good to .2 that's ware I run with mine

Agreed. I run mine at 0.2 ohms routinely as well. Which is why I said "conservatively" in response to a question from a member who's expressed unfamiliarity with certain facets of battery performance.

Any given cell has to make a trade-off between energy storage (specific energy) and energy delivery (specific power). It may be that the larger cells have been tuned for capacity rather than power. You'll note that all of the real batteries with higher capacity have a lower current limit.The reverse is also true. Recently the improvements in chemistry have raised both to an extent.

Yup. I frequently paraphrase a common analogous anecdote:
You can have 1) safe, 2) lots of current, or 3) longer lasting. Pick two.

I also certainly agree there is a substantial performance gap between seat-of-the-pants "Koilz Brah", and a build produced by someone with a good grasp of circuit theory.

 

[T0mmy1977]

It seems to me there is a little misinformation here. I'd like to clear it up if I can.

1) 26000 series batteries have a higher internal resistance than 18000 series. While this may be true, it has little to do with the size and more to do with development of the chemistry. Any given cell has to make a trade-off between energy storage (specific energy) and energy delivery (specific power). It may be that the larger cells have been tuned for capacity rather than power. You'll note that all of the real batteries with higher capacity have a lower current limit.The reverse is also true. Recently the improvements in chemistry have raised both to an extent. Choose a battery system based on specs, not generalisations.

2) you can build an atomizer with a basically good coil setup and it will work on a mech. Unfortunately there is a lot to know about electronics before this becomes possible. Most people learn what works through trial and error, but it's possible to design a coil system if you have some basic tools.

My experience? Kanthal has a high resistance and requires heavy gauge wire to draw enough power, this means more surface area and mass, which makes it inefficient. Two cell series is a simple way to overcome this, but introduces greater complexity when charging. Titanium seems to me to be a good balance for single cell systems; lower resistance per mass is easier for lower voltages.

If you can state in simple terms what you want to achieve I'm sure I can make it happen. Want 70W from your 18650 tube mech? I can help you do that.

I basically would like to achieve 60 watts on my mech with fair amount of wraps for good coverage. With 24 g I can only get like 6 wraps per coil which is not enough coverage for good vapor production IMO. 22 g takes like 9 wraps and like you said is inefficient because of it's mass. I never used titanium. Is that the answer? Thanks!

 

[entropy1049]

An 0.3 ohm coil is your target build for 60 w at 4.2 v. Sony VTC4 is a good, safe battery for this application. In a single coil set up with a 2mM inside diameter, you can achieve this with:
7/6 turns of 22g Kanthal D
5/4 turns of 24g Kanthal D
9/8 turns of 22g NiCr 80
6/5 turns of 24g NiCr 80
6/5 turns of 28g Ti 1
4/3 turns of 30g Ti 1
for some examples...

Thank you steam-engine.org: Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

Play with the link to find your golden fleece.

Also, keep in mind that it's material conductivity that affects electrical efficiency. But for any conductor, larger diameter wire = less resistance = more current.

Also keep in mind, greater surface area is desirable for vaporizing a greater volume of ejuice, producing more flavor or bigger clouds.

 

[T0mmy1977]

An 0.3 ohm coil is your target build for 60 w at 4.2 v. Sony VTC4 is a good, safe battery for this application. In a single coil set up with a 2mM inside diameter, you can achieve this with:
7/6 turns of 22g Kanthal D
5/4 turns of 24g Kanthal D
9/8 turns of 22g NiCr 80
6/5 turns of 24g NiCr 80
6/5 turns of 28g Ti 1
4/3 turns of 30g Ti 1
for some examples...

Thank you steam-engine.org: Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

Play with the link to find your golden fleece.

Also, keep in mind that it's material conductivity that affects electrical efficiency. But for any conductor, larger diameter wire = less resistance = more current.

Also keep in mind, greater surface area is desirable for vaporizing a greater volume of ejuice, producing more flavor or bigger clouds.

I think I'm gonna give Titanium 26 g a try. I don't think any B&Ms near me sell it though.

 

[edyle]

My Scorpion x mod is a beast, but still fits in the palm of my hand. View attachment 506902

Wow!
A top fired mech!
Rare!

 

[edyle]

I am underwhelmed with the performance of my mech mods. I have an RDA with dual coil, 24 g, 6 wraps each, 3 mm ID. I get better performance if I throw this RDA on a regulated box at 55 watts. Would a mech box give me the performance I am looking for? They allow you to build at lower resistances than a single 18650 mech, correct? Should I just stick with regulated mods for my RDAs?

I basically would like to achieve 60 watts on my mech with fair amount of wraps for good coverage. With 24 g I can only get like 6 wraps per coil which is not enough coverage for good vapor production IMO. 22 g takes like 9 wraps and like you said is inefficient because of it's mass. I never used titanium. Is that the answer? Thanks!

1: Yes you should just stick with regulated mods
2: people use titanium for temperature control mods, not mech mods

 

[mhertz]

It seems to me there is a little misinformation here. I'd like to clear it up if I can.

1) 26000 series batteries have a higher internal resistance than 18000 series. While this may be true, it has little to do with the size and more to do with development of the chemistry. Any given cell has to make a trade-off between energy storage (specific energy) and energy delivery (specific power). It may be that the larger cells have been tuned for capacity rather than power. You'll note that all of the real batteries with higher capacity have a lower current limit.The reverse is also true. Recently the improvements in chemistry have raised both to an extent. Choose a battery system based on specs, not generalisations.

Sorry if I worded it wrong, but that was what I meant... Atleast at the time of the posts i've read about it, it was said that the best 26650 cells available had higher internal resistance than the best 18650 cells... Atleast I was just refering to that at the same load, an optimal 26650 mod/cell combo wouldn't be hitting harder than an optimal 18650 mod/cell combo...

T0mmy1977, A 0.3ohms dual 3mm 6/7 wrap 24gauge KA1 build is my goto build and it brings very much vapor and flavor imho at 4.2v or 60 watts(on a mech with full batt and voltage-drop/sag 50'ish watts at 3.8'ish volts). It sounds like you need an rda with more airflow if that isn't giving you clouds in spades imho... I use a velocity clone btw, with half to 3/4 open airslots, no indirect air, as I like a slightly restrictive lunghit and not a non-restrictive one, and I fog up the room i'm in VERY quickly

 

[TheKman]

1: Yes you should just stick with regulated mods
2: people use titanium for temperature control mods, not mech mods

I don't mean to offend, but that's a rather obtuse response isn't it? Clearly the OP has an interest in advancing knowledge, hence the thread.

I have eight tanks and two drippers all built with Titanium, only two of them live on top of TC mods, and they're all built to run on mechs so they can be interchanged. Your statement is simply incorrect.

 

[TheKman]

@mherts: I have no personal experience with the larger cells so I have submit to your experience. It's possible they've not been given the same development attention because of the popularity of the smaller cells. *shrugs*

@T0mmy1977: 60W is a lot of power, but ok. For Kanthal you should be targetting around 0.25 Ohms to account for voltage sag. Titanium around 0.13 to account for resistance increase and SS around 0.22.

24g Kanthal, 3mm 6 turns: should work well but a little cool maybe. Spaced coils shouldn't be required.

26g Titanium, 3mm 6 turns: hotter vapour, spaced coils a must.

26g SS, 3mm 6 turns: similar to ti, spaced coils a must.

Kanthal and SS will take longer to warm up but put less stress on your battery. Titanium will heat faster but stress the battery more. My pick would be the Titanium.

Safety note: this is getting close to the practical limit for most batteries and should be treated with the appropriate care. Check your build on a mod first before firing on a mech.

Good luck!

 

[sig-cmt]

I never used titanium. Is that the answer? Thanks!

Yes is it, IMHO. I use titanium exclusively in all my mechs, Kanthal in regulated devices. Titanium is a durable wire (vs Ni80) which allows for low wire mass (improved ramp time) and reasonable resistances.

 

[T0mmy1977]

Thank everyone for your replies. As always it has been a learning experience.

 

[edyle]

I am underwhelmed with the performance of my mech mods. I have an RDA with dual coil, 24 g, 6 wraps each, 3 mm ID. I get better performance if I throw this RDA on a regulated box at 55 watts. Would a mech box give me the performance I am looking for? They allow you to build at lower resistances than a single 18650 mech, correct? Should I just stick with regulated mods for my RDAs?

Thank everyone for your replies. As always it has been a learning experience.

Just don't jump into learning the hard way;
a mech box will not give you any more active performance than a regulated box nowadays;
what a mech is good for nowadays is backup.

A dual battery mod will allow you to run higher power because 2 batteries can provide more power than one, whether its mech or regulated.

 

[T0mmy1977]

Just don't jump into learning the hard way;
a mech box will not give you any more active performance than a regulated box nowadays;
what a mech is good for nowadays is backup.

A dual battery mod will allow you to run higher power because 2 batteries can provide more power than one, whether its mech or regulated.

I just bought an extra iStick 100 watt to use with my RDAs. I like working with mechs on the side. It's fun. Gotta love the simplicity of the way it works and learning to build coils to the required resistance.

Just watched a youtube video on cleaning your mech. I'm going to give that a shot.

 

[TheKman]

a mech box will not give you any more active performance than a regulated box nowadays;
what a mech is good for nowadays is backup.

Very true. However they are getting more and more complex. One of the founding principles of testing in Engineering is the 'shake and bake' test, which essentially involves heating and mechanical vibration. As you can imagine, a high powered mod being carried around is a perfect recipe for testing it's durability.

I, for one, prefer mechs as primarily devices while on the move. Having been a serious nicotine addict for 25 years I can't bear the thought of buying cigarettes if my mod fails. If I'm leaving the house and taking just one device, it's a mech, every time. Better still, a tube mech, with only one necessary moving part.

 

[mhertz]

I know a lot of people don't think mechs have any use now(other than as backup!) and has been obsoleted by high-powered regulated box mods, but please don't generalise like that...

A mech hits faster, as it has not in-between regulation/safety circuitry.

A mech has better battery life than a comparable battery-count regulated device, although just not as consistent(I keep reading otherwise!)... - A regulated can run longer on the same power level, though...

A mech is much more durable and can be fixed by oneself easily, unlike regulateds...

If I don't wanna change battery because i'm lazy, then it's f'ing annoying that the mod decides that I can not even take 5 more hits before going to sleep, but is forced to go change those bloddy cells! I should be in charge, not it!

Lastly(but certaintly not least), the hobby aspect of it's simplicity and total control'ishness without any hand-holding or "cheating"...

No, mechs are more than just merely backup devices! The only way mech's could be seen as obsoleted, is if people only where using them previously as the only means to reach e.g. 100+ watts, but that wasen't the only reason for many!

 

[TheKman]

A man after my own heart! I'll bet you still drive manual transmission too?

 

[mhertz]

LOL, of course, mate!

 

[Smellybelly]

Yeah I started with a regulated and then got a nice snow wolf and love it and then I got a vanilla clone and it's just wonderful. Obviously not as powerful as the snow wolf can get but i don't need it to get that powerful as I mainly use it with a tank. Still nice instant power and so easy to carry and drive with. I just got my first 18350 too and I'm really digging that. Doesn't last long but that's a nice pocket vape for while I'm busy at work