Met another vaper in public for the 1st time ever, and it was sad

[optsmk]

So this means that vaping is identical to smoking? I guess that does it for me then. I'm going back to analogs tomorrow.

 

[Nuck]

So this means that vaping is identical to smoking? I guess that does it for me then. I'm going back to analogs tomorrow.

Yes. That's exactly what it means. Enjoy your smokes.

 

[Vocalek]

You stated the risk of miscarriage was doubled. Stillbirth, as you know, is death of the fetus after 20 weeks of gestation. The causes for stillbirth are a little different from the causes for miscarriage.

•Placental Problems: The placenta serves as the baby’s main source of nourishment within the womb. Sometimes, the placenta can peel away from the uterus before birth, depriving the baby of oxygen and nutrients vital to his survival. Known as placental abruption, this condition is believed to be responsible for up to 16% of stillbirths.
•Birth Defects: Sometimes a fetus is created with faulty chromosomes, leading to problems in a baby’s genetic code. This can cause a number of serious birth defects, which makes it impossible for a baby to survive to term. Approximately 5% to 10% of stillbirths are the result of such genetic birth defects. Birth defects can also be the result of environmental toxins, such as chemical exposure or cigarette smoking.
•Infection: Some women develop infections that are dangerous to a baby during pregnancy. Bacterial infections, such as toxoplasmosis, listeria, and rubella, can cause serious health problems in a baby. STDs, such as syphilis, can also be responsible for stillbirths.
•Maternal Illness: Certain maternal health conditions can be a cause of intrauterine and intra-partum death. Women with diabetes and preeclampsia are at increased risk for having a stillborn baby. Women with maternal liver disease (obstetric cholecstasis) are also at risk for having a stillbirth. In fact, 5% of all stillbirths can be attributed to this disease.
•Birth Trauma: Babies sometimes suffer from trauma during delivery that leads to stillbirth. Babies can get their umbilical cords wrapped around their necks, causing asphyxiation. Some babies suffer from shoulder dystocia (dislocated shoulder) during delivery, which can sometimes result in stillbirth.

None of the above are included in the risk adjustment for study you quoted.

Conclusions were not changed after adjustment in a logistic regression model for the sex of the child; parity; or maternal age, height, weight, marital status, years of education, occupational status, and alcohol and caffeine intake during pregnancy.

In "Risk factors for first trimester miscarriage--results from a UK-population-based case-control study" BJOG: An International Journal of Obstetrics & Gynaecology 2007 Feb;114(2):170-86

RESULTS: After adjustment for confounding, the following were independently associated with increased risk: high maternal age; previous miscarriage, termination and infertility; assisted conception; low pre-pregnancy body mass index; regular or high alcohol consumption; feeling stressed (including trend with number of stressful or traumatic events); high paternal age and changing partner. Previous live birth, nausea, vitamin supplementation and eating fresh fruits and vegetables daily were associated with reduced risk, as were feeling well enough to fly or to have sex. After adjustment for nausea, we did not confirm an association with caffeine consumption, smoking or moderate or occasional alcohol consumption; nor did we find an association with educational level, socio-economic circumstances or working during pregnancy.

Let's get something straight here. I am not out to prove that smoking during pregnancy is a harmless past-time. My goal is to make sure that we stick to the facts. When I had my children, half the population smoked. The advice I was given, and followed, was to reduce the amount I smoked. I gave birth to two full-term, normal weight, healthy babies.

Nuck, I don't know what your experience has been when you totally abstain from nicotine. For me, total nicotine abstinence is beyond stressful. It is highly traumatic.

 

[Nuck]

You stated the risk of miscarriage was doubled. Stillbirth, as you know, is death of the fetus after 20 weeks of gestation. The causes for stillbirth are a little different from the causes for miscarriage.

None of the above are included in the risk adjustment for study you quoted.


In "Risk factors for first trimester miscarriage--results from a UK-population-based case-control study" BJOG: An International Journal of Obstetrics & Gynaecology 2007 Feb;114(2):170-86



Let's get something straight here. I am not out to prove that smoking during pregnancy is a harmless past-time. My goal is to make sure that we stick to the facts. When I had my children, half the population smoked. The advice I was given, and followed, was to reduce the amount I smoked. I gave birth to two full-term, normal weight, healthy babies.

Nuck, I don't know what your experience has been when you totally abstain from nicotine. For me, total nicotine abstinence is beyond stressful. It is highly traumatic.

I saw you cherry pick from a previous study which is why I mentioned for you to take it up with the authors. I have no interest in debating semantics on an internet forum. It is little comfort to a woman who has just lost her child that it isn't technically a miscarriage but rather a stillbirth.

I'm glad you were fortunate enough to have two successful pregnancies...I was lucky enough to have seven healthy children myself. Unfortunately, that doesn't change that fact that smoking while pregnant is a very real risk to the child's life and health and there are a portion of women who will suffer the loss of a child because they chose to continue feeding their addiction.

 

[trog100]

The level of intelligence on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

kind of an ambiguous statement that one.. are you talking the highs and lows or just the disparity between the two..

all i know is that life as regards what we should do and what we should not do gets more difficult the more we know.. or think we know.. ignorance really is bliss sometimes.. and a surfeit of information can be a curse..

i tend to take the gay (true meaning of the word) frolicking and l leave it to the will of god what comes out the hole that seems by gods design or not too small to permit none injurious entry into the world for all new participants..

trog

 

[irq]

And now, the phrase "genetic predisposition" takes on another twist...
As far as saying something to her, it's a no-win, especially standing beside her doing the same thing. You did what you thought was right. What a knucklehead she must have for a Dr...

Nicotine make you do crazy s*** mahn !

 

[Vocalek]

I'm glad you were fortunate enough to have two successful pregnancies...I was lucky enough to have seven healthy children myself. Unfortunately, that doesn't change that fact that smoking while pregnant is a very real risk to the child's life and health and there are a portion of women who will suffer the loss of a child because they chose to continue feeding their addiction.

Nuck: We are not in disagreement that smoking while pregnant can be a risk to the child's life and health.

There is, however, a dose-response relationship. Another study that I saw said that the risk of miscarriage increases 20% for every 5 cigarettes smoked. So yes, it would add up to double if you smoked 25 cigarettes a day.

But if you had no history of miscarriages and no other strong risk factors for miscarriage, you might be willing to take on an extra 20% risk if you had tried to quit before becoming pregnant and learned that you are one of the folks who sacrifices your cognitive and emotional health when you abstain from nicotine.

I have not seen any study whatsovever that shows increased risk to the fetus from using nicotine that does not come from cigarette smoke. If you were an OB, and your patient followed your orders and quit smoking and consequently developed severe agitated depression, bordering on suicidal, which would you prescribe: antidepressant medication, or NRT? I have no proof either way, but I suspect that NRT would be a lot less risky.

 

[Nuck]

Nuck: We are not in disagreement that smoking while pregnant can be a risk to the child's life and health.

There is, however, a dose-response relationship. Another study that I saw said that the risk of miscarriage increases 20% for every 5 cigarettes smoked. So yes, it would add up to double if you smoked 25 cigarettes a day.

But if you had no history of miscarriages and no other strong risk factors for miscarriage, you might be willing to take on an extra 20% risk if you had tried to quit before becoming pregnant and learned that you are one of the folks who sacrifices your cognitive and emotional health when you abstain from nicotine.

I have not seen any study whatsovever that shows increased risk to the fetus from using nicotine that does not come from cigarette smoke. If you were an OB, and your patient followed your orders and quit smoking and consequently developed severe agitated depression, bordering on suicidal, which would you prescribe: antidepressant medication, or NRT? I have no proof either way, but I suspect that NRT would be a lot less risky.

I can't really answer the hypothetical question because I don't have the required training to put it in proper perspective. I would think the best course of action would be to discuss it with your doctor and to follow their recommendations. I also found references to NRT's that were not conclusive but leaned toward them as a much safer alternative for those that could not completely quit while pregnant.

 

[Vocalek]

Just ran across this, when wondering what the absolute odds of miscarriage are.
Odds of Miscarriage - Risk Factors and Odds of Miscarriage

I have no idea how accurate the information is, but this is a good plain-English explanation of how increased risk calculations work.

An odds ratio shows the percentage of increased risk rather than the risk of miscarriage. For example, a odds ratio of 1.5 would mean that a woman was 1.5 times more likely to miscarry because she had a particular risk factor (that is, 50% more likely). This would not mean that a person has a 50% chance of miscarriage, but rather that if a person without that risk factor had a 20% risk of miscarriage, someone with that risk factor would have a 30% risk of miscarriage (because 30% is 50% more than 20% -- is your head spinning yet?)

The table below illustrates overall estimated miscarriage rates by specific risk factor. Note that some of these factors are not yet well understood and that the exact figures vary by individual study.


Miscarriage Rates Associated with Risk Factors

Risk Factor Percent Who Will Miscarry
Mother's age 30-39 25%
Mother's age 40-44 ~50%
Mother's age >45 ~95%
2 prior miscarriages 20%
3 prior miscarriages 40%
4 or more prior miscarriages 54%

Odds Ratio of Miscarriage
Obesity 1.2
Being underweight (BMI < 18.5) 1.24
Father's age >40 1.6
Drinking 5 or more units/alcohol per week 4.84
Smoking >10 cigarettes daily 1.4

Reading these odds makes me feel very lucky that my nearing-40 daughter-in-law managed to produce two beautiful healthy children before they decided not to have more children.

This just in:

For women with no vaginal bleeding, most estimates suggest that the odds or having a miscarriage after seeing a heartbeat are about 4%.

http://miscarriage.about.com/od/pregnancyafterloss/f/oddsheartbeat.htm

 

[LadyPamela]

Sorry to say but she obviously knew the dangers herself and had made an informed, and considered, decision. Do you really think that your input and/or put downs, made a positive impact on her? Or was it much like non-smokers opinions, rules, and laws being crammed down the throats of smokers because they believe they know best?

I saw a show once where the guest was a woman who's father died from a smoking disease. She was a rabid non-smoking advocate and she had the gall to tell the host that she didn't think smokers knew the dangers. The host immediately disagreed with her but that really is the mind-set of these people. They think that THEY are the only ones intelligent or mature enough to make an informed decision so they need to legislate all of us dumb-a$$es who don't know what we're doing.

Which also reminds me of reading an article by a man who was an anti-porn crusader. He wrote that he had the revelation about himself that he truly thought that HE was able to determine what was right for him, that it was OK for him to see porn because HE knew what it was, and what it wasn't, and it wasn't going to harm him but that other people needed it done for them. When he realized that this was his motivation he stopped his crusades. THIS is what so many people truly feel in the heart of themselves that allow them to think that they know better than someone else does.