Mixing By Weight: Basics 101

[Kickingthesticks]

Just got my aws lb 501 from Amazon today. Did a few test runs with water and this scale is jumpy lol. I noticed any vibration would throw the scale off. Took it into the basement and it was better. I'm liking this mix by weight method. Now let's say I had 100 bucks to throw on a scale in the future what would you guys recommend?

 

[IDJoel]

A solid surface, properly adjusted feet, and an acclimated scale can help a lot. I leave my scale in the room where I mix (I have the luxury of having no children or pets to worry about ).

Also, part of the problem (I was suffering from it too) might be the "auto-zero" function that was discussed in this thread. There are several solutions suggested to alleviate the problem. You will notice the "auto-zeroing" with the first couple of drops being added. Especially if you are dropping them slowly.

 

[Capt.shay]

Just got my aws lb 501 from Amazon today. Did a few test runs with water and this scale is jumpy lol. I noticed any vibration would throw the scale off. Took it into the basement and it was better. I'm liking this mix by weight method. Now let's say I had 100 bucks to throw on a scale in the future what would you guys recommend?

Give it a week or two and you will see why we really don't feel the need to spend big money on a scale. The AW is a little jumpy but as joel said, you need to have a solid base. My mixing bench is some kind of Ikea type Scandinavian style table and it loosened up a bit on me so the when I shifted my weight on the wooden floor it would tilt the scale. I needed to tighten it up so it didn't sway.

As far as controlling your pour; You will learn when to slow down as you get closer to the end. You really need to have the ability to dispense drops so squeeze bottles with Yorker caps are pretty much mandatory for the VG and PG. I also go through a good deal of the disposable pipetes. E-bay a big bag of them from china and they are so cheap that you don't feel bad about one use-ing them. Also on the control thing, Remember how minuscule an amount .01g is. For most of my droppers that is only one third of a drop. Don't beat yourself up if your not spot on. You are still, in all likely hood, more accurate than trying to read a meniscus accurately. This is also why I personally never make less than a 10ml batch. It keeps the margin of error higher.

 

[DaveP]

I do my mixing on a kitchen counter next to the sink. It's a solid surface and the shakiness that results from dripping ingredients onto the scale settles in a second or so. I have this picture in my mind of those slow motion films where a drop of water looks like an elastic bag as it falls through the air and hits in a surface and violently reacts to the impact. I wonder what dripping PG and VG would look like hitting our bottle surface on the scale.

 

[atroph]

@Mactavish What do you use the repeater for? I remember looking at a thread dealing with it but may have missed the gist as I went off on a tangent researching what a repeater does, where to buy one, and how much they cost used and new. IMHO it would only help "me" for measuring my nic if my batches were the same size. FWIW I do 15mL batches and a shot of 0.9mL for my 6mg/mL would be its only use as my recipes vary.

@Capt.shay thanks for the thread and sorry for the crosstalk. I had a lightbulb moment when I checked my usual recipe calculator and noticed I could change from drops to weight. Seems so dead simple, and I will head to my local "smoke/vapor" shop (or hit up amazon) and pick up a portable scale to put in my vape toolbox.

 

[Mactavish]

@Mactavish What do you use the repeater for? I remember looking at a thread dealing with it but may have missed the gist as I went off on a tangent researching what a repeater does, where to buy one, and how much they cost used and new. IMHO it would only help "me" for measuring my nic if my batches were the same size. FWIW I do 15mL batches and a shot of 0.9mL for my 6mg/mL would be its only use as my recipes vary.

@Capt.shay thanks for the thread and sorry for the crosstalk. I had a lightbulb moment when I checked my usual recipe calculator and noticed I could change from drops to weight. Seems so dead simple, and I will head to my local "smoke/vapor" shop (or hit up amazon) and pick up a portable scale to put in my vape toolbox.

Check out my blog post on my experience using a medical repeater pipette. If you have any questions after reading it, I'll respond.

Using a medical Pipette for ejuice mixing and device review: Gilson Distriman Repeater Pipette | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Mactavish]

A solid surface, properly adjusted feet, and an acclimated scale can help a lot. I leave my scale in the room where I mix (I have the luxury of having no children or pets to worry about ).

Also, part of the problem (I was suffering from it too) might be the "auto-zero" function that was discussed in this thread. There are several solutions suggested to alleviate the problem. You will notice the "auto-zeroing" with the first couple of drops being added. Especially if you are dropping them slowly.

Hi Joel,
I have the AWS LB-501 scale, there is no mention of an "auto-zero" feature/function in the manual. I read that thread discussing it on other brand scales, and when I tested mine, could not see it. I don't believe it pertains to the AWS LB-501, is this the model you own, and if so have you seen any auto-zero behavior on yours?
Thanks!

 

[mhertz]

Sorry, not Joel, but as the thread he links to describes, it's for the SF-400(D2) and I don't believe it's been reported for the aw-lb-501.

This is an issue I sincerely hate, and which i've only seen once, on the most expensive scale I own and ditched immediately from use. The two others, for half the price doesn't have this issue. I just use cheap china scales though, and the "most expensive" was just some 20 bucks, and the others 10 and 12 bucks with free shipping from china. Still going strong btw for I think 2 years for the oldest(500/0.01g) and tested to have 0.01g precision as spec'ed(rarely 0.02g, which is still under a drop) with a 10xcoin-check-test.

 

[IDJoel]

Hi Joel,
I have the AWS LB-501 scale, there is no mention of an "auto-zero" feature/function in the manual. I read that thread discussing it on other brand scales, and when I tested mine, could not see it. I don't believe it pertains to the AWS LB-501, is this the model you own, and if so have you seen any auto-zero behavior on yours?
Thanks!

Good info Mac. Thanks for checking it out

No; I am using the SF400D (the other scale recommended by Capt.shay) and do not/have not used the AWS. What you suggest is a very valid point as I have no idea if the AWS uses an auto zero function. Hence why I said "might." While reading the previously linked thread I inferred that this was not unique to the SF400D (esp. posts #7, & 10 by @bussdriver and @Capt.shay ) so I was offering it as one suggestion of possible influences to the mentioned "jumpiness" @Kickingthesticks was experiencing.

If you can place a single drop onto the AWS, and it registers and does not return to zero after a few seconds, then it sounds like it does not have an auto zero function. All I can say is "lucky you; `cause it is kinda obnoxious."

It sounds like "auto zero" can be removed from the discussion of the AWS, but still something to think about, with those who might read this thread and be using a different brand of scale (like the SF400D that Capt.shay recommended in the second post).

 

[Capt.shay]

As I said before, with the SF I kept a nickle on the table and any time I was doing real small amounts I would add the 5g nickle and then weigh. It made the scale behave well with small numbers. I never ran in to the problem that some others mentioned in the other thread with adding drops slowly but enough people have reported it that I believe it to be an issue. If I could, I would probably go back and edit out the sf400, unfortunately it is timed out and I can not edit the original post.

 

[atroph]

Check out my blog post on my experience using a medical repeater pipette. If you have any questions after reading it, I'll respond.

Using a medical Pipette for ejuice mixing and device review: Gilson Distriman Repeater Pipette | E-Cigarette Forum

Ah ha! There it is again! Thanks for the link!

So I see you are a ingest-dispense-rinse...repeat user. I used to do that with luer-lock syringes but feared cross contamination with the flavor bottles and went with the drip into an empty syringe with my finger over the bottom, fill to line desired, and then put a finger to over the top, remove bottom finger, hover over bottle, and release top finger. Different ways to skin a cat and thanks for sharing your method!

Again sorry for the cross topics OP, I hope it helps other DIY-ers figure out their own method(s).

 

[Fozzy71]

..

..,... I used to do that with luer-lock syringes but feared cross contamination with the flavor bottles and went with the drip into an empty syringe with my finger over the bottom, fill to line desired, and then put a finger to over the top, remove bottom finger, hover over bottle, and release top finger. ........

wtf, y so hard

 

[Mactavish]

Ah ha! There it is again! Thanks for the link!

So I see you are a ingest-dispense-rinse...repeat user. I used to do that with luer-lock syringes but feared cross contamination with the flavor bottles and went with the drip into an empty syringe with my finger over the bottom, fill to line desired, and then put a finger to over the top, remove bottom finger, hover over bottle, and release top finger. Different ways to skin a cat and thanks for sharing your method!

Again sorry for the cross topics OP, I hope it helps other DIY-ers figure out their own method(s).

I think I may have read your technique description before, this time I'll say what I was thinking the last time, that sure "seems" like a LOT of effort! Now granted many don't want to spend the extra for a setup like I've put together, and I understand.

What made the biggest difference in streamlining the setup for the fastest cleanup possible is when I realized there would be NO contamination between flavors using the same pipette. Most if not all pipette repeaters have a fill slider on the handle, making filling and dumping 2-3 times with hot water just a matter of seconds, and I can't even smell the last flavor on the same pipette. You could do this with syringes, but sucking up and dumping water in the smaller size syringes would be slower, but doable. So now instead of having a pipette/syringe for each flavor, I use just one. As mentioned in the blog, all the other ingredients are dispensed from squeeze bottles, so no cleanup there.

So far, while I may make crappy juice, no one can make a batch faster from breaking out the tools, through minimal cleanup!

 

[Fozzy71]

I think I may have read your technique description before, this time I'll say what I was thinking the last time, that sure "seems" like a LOT of effort! Now granted many don't want to spend the extra for a setup like I've put together, and I understand.

What made the biggest difference in streamlining the setup for the fastest cleanup possible is when I realized there would be NO contamination between flavors using the same pipette. Most if not all pipette repeaters have a fill slider on the handle, making filling and dumping 2-3 times with hot water just a matter of seconds, and I can't even smell the last flavor on the same pipette. You could do this with syringes, but sucking up and dumping water in the smaller size syringes would be slower, but doable. So now instead of having a pipette/syringe for each flavor, I use just one. As mentioned in the blog, all the other ingredients are dispensed from squeeze bottles, so no cleanup there.

So far, while I may make crappy juice, no one can make a batch faster from breaking out the tools, through minimal cleanup!

100 disposable pipettes for $4 on amazon that will probably last me a year, how much was your repeater again?

 

[IDJoel]

If I could, I would probably go back and edit out the sf400

I am not unhappy with the scale. It responds quickly and is easy to read. I just needed to learn its idiosyncrasies (you're right about the nickle; it works). The "way of weigh" has made my DIY easier, and more enjoyable. If, for nothing else, not having to squint, and roll the syringe, and adjust the light, and squint some more, and get the air bubble(s) out, and did I mention squint, just to read the <deleted> graduation markings on the flippin' syringe. To weigh is my way! Thanks Capt.! This thread gave me the nudge to give it a try.

 

[atroph]

I think I may have read your technique description before, this time I'll say what I was thinking the last time, that sure "seems" like a LOT of effort! Now granted many don't want to spend the extra for a setup like I've put together, and I understand.

What made the biggest difference in streamlining the setup for the fastest cleanup possible is when I realized there would be NO contamination between flavors using the same pipette. Most if not all pipette repeaters have a fill slider on the handle, making filling and dumping 2-3 times with hot water just a matter of seconds, and I can't even smell the last flavor on the same pipette. You could do this with syringes, but sucking up and dumping water in the smaller size syringes would be slower, but doable. So now instead of having a pipette/syringe for each flavor, I use just one. As mentioned in the blog, all the other ingredients are dispensed from squeeze bottles, so no cleanup there.

So far, while I may make crappy juice, no one can make a batch faster from breaking out the tools, through minimal cleanup!

Hmm.. IMO my original way of doing business (suck w/ syringe, squirt, rinse w/ cup 'o hot water, repeat with different flavor) was similar to your repeater method and I assumed that the rinse water could lead to cross contamination and I would have to change the water between flavors to ensure there was no cross contamination. To be honest the contamination would be so minuscule, however the way I am "programmed" it matters.

I may have it wrong in interpreting the "fill" slider on the repeater. If you have a way to flush out the repeater from say a top fill then I get it, however if the fill lever just moves the repeater to max position or lack of better words max suck then I guess it really depends on the purity of the water that you are rinsing with.

I come from a food-service background from "way back when" and I compare it to handling chicken, rinsing your hands in a bucket, and then handling fresh fruit and veg. Next time you go back to the water bucket for a rinse it is contaminated w/ chicken juice.

My newer method with squirting flavors from the flavor bottle in an empty syringe "to me" seems less likely with cross contamination as I usually utilize a common flavor between mixes that is used as a rinse per se. Take for example my simpleton mix of blueberry custard and strawberry custard. 15% fruit and 10% custard. First is BB at 2.25mL and then 1.5mL of VC in the first bottle. Then 1.5mL again of VC then the 2.25 SB for the other bottle. In my mind I have effectively rinsed the syringe w/ VC prior to adding the strawberry for the second bottle. If that makes any sense

IMO my method is by volume in a single syringe without using the plunger by dropping it into the top with a finger over the bottom then doing a finger flip to the top to keep the flavor from running right out. To me it is dead simple and super fast for my small 15mL batches as I can use a 3mL syringe for flavors and a separate 1mL for nic accuracy (drawn from the nic bottle). I ALWAYS try and keep my nic source as pure as possible and it gets a fresh syringe each and every time.

Please @Mactavish don't take my dialog as negative or direct criticism as I am exploring new ways to make things easier "for me."

I'm all about the extra setup as long at the benefits are yielded in the long run of the entire "process"

In this point in my vaping journey I am leaning more towards the scale side of things as the worst you can do is over squeeze your ingredients IMO.

 

[atroph]

..., y so hard

It is not hard, however the rinse water becomes contaminated with the minuscule remnants of the flavor that was in the syringe prior to the rinse. I am lazy and the 15ft walk to the sink to get new rinse water was becoming a chore when I would do 6+ batches.

Not sure if I can clearly explain over the 'net, but if I draw a flavor in a 1mL syringe for example you can never really clear out the needle and that small portion of the mating part of the syringe that the plunger just can't force out. That is the contaminant that will taint the water and potentially taint your flavors if you so happen to overdraw and have to squirt some back into the tube.

As for the pipettes I see the benefits but I'd like to counter that I have been doing DIY for nearly 2 years on the same 1mL and 3mL syringes with what I believe is the least amount of cross contamination without a full distilled or de-ionized water rinse per flavor change. In college chemistry class a DI-water rinse was mandatory between chemical changes with the same measuring or dispensing device or you would skew the results of your experiment. (as my gray hair recalls )

 

[Mactavish]

100 disposable pipettes for $4 on amazon that will probably last me a year, how much was your repeater again?

Those 100 disposable plastic pipettes will LAST forever..... In a landfill someplace.

And then there is the push button accuracy of a few drops with a repeater if that's important. A "refurbished" repeater can be found for the price of a single high end RTA, or a used EBay unit for a lot less.

 

[Mactavish]

It is not hard, however the rinse water becomes contaminated with the minuscule remnants of the flavor that was in the syringe prior to the rinse. I am lazy and the 15ft walk to the sink to get new rinse water was becoming a chore when I would do 6+ batches.

Not sure if I can clearly explain over the 'net, but if I draw a flavor in a 1mL syringe for example you can never really clear out the needle and that small portion of the mating part of the syringe that the plunger just can't force out. That is the contaminant that will taint the water and potentially taint your flavors if you so happen to overdraw and have to squirt some back into the tube.

As for the pipettes I see the benefits but I'd like to counter that I have been doing DIY for nearly 2 years on the same 1mL and 3mL syringes with what I believe is the least amount of cross contamination without a full distilled or de-ionized water rinse per flavor change. In college chemistry class a DI-water rinse was mandatory between chemical changes with the same measuring or dispensing device or you would skew the results of your experiment. (as my gray hair recalls )

Well in my case I'm right next to a sink. I place a Pyrex mixing cup in the bottom of the sink. My tap water is very hot (120-135f). I draw up the water from the cup, dispense into sink drain, do it twice, dump the cup water, refill, then repeat. In 3 cycles there is no cross contamination, if one were OCD, you could cycle more. Once purged the medical pipettes I use might have a 1/2 drop of water or less left in them, but are almost completely dry. I don't think a bloodhound could detect any flavor contamination. If it were food I was preparing, sure one might want to use separate syringes for each ingredient.

As I mentioned, it may not be for everyone, but it's a great system for speed of setup and cleanup. I've given myself no excuse not to mix!

 

[Capt.shay]

I think the idea of one of these repeaters or syringes is completely and entirely counter intuitive to weight based mixing. They are completely unnecessary and represent a great deal more work. Use them if yo want but I have no interested in fooling around with that stuff that needs to be cleaned after each and every use. There is no wrong way to mix if it works for you but I will stick to the method that is the topic of this thread.