Mouth, lungs or both?

[patkin]

As the controversy goes on, I'll use personal experience to decide. For me, both nic in smoke and nic in vapor get absorbed in my mouth and nose. Lung inhaling is totally unnecessary as most cigar and pipe smokers know and some vapers know.... from personal experience with scientific controversy aside. Tomatoes used to be poisonous, animals couldn't think nor feel and second-hand smoke would kill you. I cleaned my lungs out of all the debris from 58 years of smoking. I'm not gonna put anything I don't have to in them and I don't have to to get nic nor enjoy my flavors. But that's just me. If inhaling is what turns you on... have at it.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Dr. Farsalinos' recent study (Dr. F discussed the study starting at 23:59 in this audio, VapeTeam Live replay - 2/26/2014 - Dark Day in Europe ) shows how slow nicotine absorption is from vaping which would argue against the idea of getting something described as a rush from vaping. It takes 35 minutes of vaping 15 mg. juice in an Evod at 9 watts to reach the same level of nicotine saturation from smoking a cigarette for 5 minutes. I think this study and the nicotine particle size study would argue in favor of an explanation aside from nicotine as being responsible for anything one might describe as a rush one might get from vaping.

I feel iffy about his conclusion. It's not that I don't trust his findings, but I guess what doesn't sit right with me is the take-away from his findings. I am someone who likes high nic -- not TropicalBob levels -- but higher than most. When I vape as high as 36 mg/mL of nic-only liquid, I barely can make it to 5 minutes (32 mg is as far as I can go comfortably for extended periods), but I can easily smoke an unfiltered cig in a heartbeat (even now).

He posits that liquids as high as 50 mg/mL should be available to better approximate the absorption of nicotine from cigs for vaping to be a legitimate smoking "substitute." Here it's ALL about nicotine absorption of cigs vs. ecigs -- that's too simplistic in my view, and sort of perpetuates the notion that smoking is primarily an issue with nicotine. Of course, even as the study states (in an aside), "although recent data suggest that other substances in tobacco cigarette may reinforce the addictive properties of nicotine," I think his conclusion is mistaking in trying to mock-up vaping/absorption of nicotine vs. smoking/absorption of just nicotine for the case of substitution. Nicotine by itself does not quite act on the body (at least not MY body) the same as it does while working in concert with all the other alkaloids/chemicals.

So if I had to choose to vape 50 mg/mL for 5 minutes or smoke a cig for 5 minutes, I would sooner smoke because that high of just nicotine in vaping would cause me, and many who even currently smoke, immediate discomfort (heart racing, dizziness, upset stomach -- and that's not all in my head). I don't doubt that some "hard cases" do need such heavy levels to succeed, but I can only speculate that those people are indeed rare birds.

I understand that capping nicotine levels is a very bad decision, but I also don't think that on-par absorption is needed for vaping to be an effective substitute -- once nicotine has been isolated (that's a huge distinction that needs to be addressed when comparing), we are talking apples to oranges with vaping and smoking.

 

[peraspera]

...I understand that capping nicotine levels is a very bad decision, but I also don't think that on-par absorption is needed for vaping to be an effective substitute -- once nicotine has been isolated (that's a huge distinction that needs to be addressed when comparing), we are talking apples to oranges with vaping and smoking.

Scientific studies often as not raise more questions than they answer because they deal with a single variable at time while mother nature operates exclusively at an elegantly complex level. The question that immediately popped into my head when thinking about the study was why was it so easy for me to quit my 2 1/2 pack a day smoking habit with a cig-alike using 24mg. nic only for an hour or so in the morning and 18 mg. the rest of the day? Never had the slightest craving for a cigarette, ever.

As an anecdotal matter I completely agree with you that, for whatever reason, the body reacts to vaped nicotine differently than smoked nicotine. It appears as though the body needs less nicotine from vaping. It would be wonderful to see studies that would shed some insight into this type of anecdotal evidence.

 

[Ss96evo]

I do both. Depends on what setup I am using


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[AQUASCAPE]

rda = lung inhale
rba tanks = mouth to lung .

 

[Mr.Mann]

Scientific studies often as not raise more questions than they answer because they deal with a single variable at time while mother nature operates exclusively at an elegantly complex level. The question that immediately popped into my head when thinking about the study was why was it so easy for me to quit my 2 1/2 pack a day smoking habit with a cig-alike using 24mg. nic only for an hour or so in the morning and 18 mg. the rest of the day? Never had the slightest craving for a cigarette, ever.

As an anecdotal matter I completely agree with you that, for whatever reason, the body reacts to vaped nicotine differently than smoked nicotine. It appears as though the body needs less nicotine from vaping. It would be wonderful to see studies that would shed some insight into this type of anecdotal evidence.

Agreed.

I never once felt nic-sick from all my days of smoking (though it made me sick. LOL)

I know people that seriously smoked a lot (including some that still do), and they are the same people that will get quite nic-sick if they go above 12 mg for even short periods (not even subohming or anything like that). But according to what's been implied from the latter parts of the study, they should already have a super-high threshold for nicotine; but as many of us know, smoking is so much more than nicotine absorption, no matter how much or fast it delivers it.

I am all for Dr. F 's work and I donated what I could to his latest study, but seriously?! 50 mg/mL just to be able to get equal absorption at a similar rate of smoking? I am all for people doing what they must, and am all for others suggesting what they will, but I pause at that 50 mg/mL bit -- it might look legit on paper, but whom among us really wants to go there? Maybe a few, but I suspect not many; and I bet there are plenty of us that could easily go smoke a cigarette easier than vape 50 mg/mL. Yet, apparently, considering damn near all of us used to smoke, we all should've been able to comfortably accept vaping that high of nicotine since that was roughly what we were used to in terms of absorption rates.

I don't know if Dr. F smoked and/or vapes, but I would love to see a scientist (ahem, DVap! LOL) weigh-in on this that has been on both sides. Or maybe Dr. F can take some current heavy smokers and try it out -- I suspect with that high of nicotine, they may get so stimmed-out that some will end up needing a cigarette! haha

All in all, I did like appreciate the majority of his study that focused on (first generation) ecigs vs. (new generation) ecigs for absorption -- that was a true gfit!

 

[jasonandalysha]

i do all of the above..

 

[peraspera]

...I am all for Dr. F 's work and I donated what I could to his latest study, but seriously?! 50 mg/mL just to be able to get equal absorption at a similar rate of smoking? I am all for people doing what they must, and am all for others suggesting what they will, but I pause at that 50 mg/mL bit -- it might look legit on paper, but whom among us really wants to go there? Maybe a few, but I suspect not many; and I bet there are plenty of us that could easily go smoke a cigarette easier than vape 50 mg/mL. Yet, apparently, considering damn near all of us used to smoke, we all should've been able to comfortably accept vaping that high of nicotine since that was roughly what we were used to in terms of absorption rates.

I don't know if Dr. F smoked and/or vapes, but I would love to see a scientist (ahem, DVap! LOL) weigh-in on this that has been on both sides. Or maybe Dr. F can take some current heavy smokers and try it out -- I suspect with that high of nicotine, they may get so stimmed-out that some will end up needing a cigarette! haha
...

I got the impression that, specifically in the context of the EU capping juice nicotine percentages, Dr. Farsalinos was posing the question of whether or not it would be healthier to inhale less volume of vapor at nic higher levels versus more volume of vapor at lower levels. I think the question is valid and was posed to point out the hypocrisy of the EU claiming any concerns about health.

However, I don't think there should be any dispute that there is ample anecdotal evidence that the vast majority of vapers prefer more vapor at lower nic levels rather than vaping something as high as 50 mg.!

Somewhere it sticks in the far recesses of my admittedly addled brain that Dr. Farsalinos may have been a smoker and then vaper but I could easily be mistaken about that. However, that issue aside, he does seem to be in touch with real world vapers and vaping.

I'm all in with you in wanting more science about the 50 mg. versus lower levels. However, Dr. Farsalinos' comments in the VapeTeam broadcast leads me to believe that his further research will be likely focused on fighting overly restrictive vaping legislation rather than trying to pinpoint what types of things work best to help people quit smoking. It's sad, but sensible in light of the current political climate that is so hostile to vaping.

 

[bcastela]

I feel iffy about his conclusion. It's not that I don't trust his findings, but I guess what doesn't sit right with me is the take-away from his findings. I am someone who likes high nic -- not TropicalBob levels -- but higher than most. When I vape as high as 36 mg/mL of nic-only liquid, I barely can make it to 5 minutes (32 mg is as far as I can go comfortably for extended periods), but I can easily smoke an unfiltered cig in a heartbeat (even now).

He posits that liquids as high as 50 mg/mL should be available to better approximate the absorption of nicotine from cigs for vaping to be a legitimate smoking "substitute." Here it's ALL about nicotine absorption of cigs vs. ecigs -- that's too simplistic in my view, and sort of perpetuates the notion that smoking is primarily an issue with nicotine. Of course, even as the study states (in an aside), "although recent data suggest that other substances in tobacco cigarette may reinforce the addictive properties of nicotine," I think his conclusion is mistaking in trying to mock-up vaping/absorption of nicotine vs. smoking/absorption of just nicotine for the case of substitution. Nicotine by itself does not quite act on the body (at least not MY body) the same as it does while working in concert with all the other alkaloids/chemicals.

So if I had to choose to vape 50 mg/mL for 5 minutes or smoke a cig for 5 minutes, I would sooner smoke because that high of just nicotine in vaping would cause me, and many who even currently smoke, immediate discomfort (heart racing, dizziness, upset stomach -- and that's not all in my head). I don't doubt that some "hard cases" do need such heavy levels to succeed, but I can only speculate that those people are indeed rare birds.

I understand that capping nicotine levels is a very bad decision, but I also don't think that on-par absorption is needed for vaping to be an effective substitute -- once nicotine has been isolated (that's a huge distinction that needs to be addressed when comparing), we are talking apples to oranges with vaping and smoking.

This study is very interesting. And absolutely matches my personal experience.

I have no scientific background in this area, but from my experience, nicotine absorption is different between analogs and vaping.

I'm a heavy smoker (around 35 cigarretes a day on average) trying to quit. Right now i'm vaping for about a month, but haven't completely drop the analogs. Sometimes i only have 1 cigarette a day, sometimes up to 15.
This is completely subjective, but i am the kind of guy that gets out of bed in the morning just to have a smoke. I found that the hardest time to skip the old cigarrete is right after i get out of bed. It seems to me there is a delay between vaping and feeling satisfied. My typical day i try to vape for 15m but i get anxious and end up going to the old habit. After those first moments, if i'm feeling committed, i can keep vaping for the rest of the day without much trouble. Usually i vape around 5ml of 18mg a day, which was supposed to be more nicotine than what i was taking before, but i never feel any overdose symptoms what so ever.

On my bad days (usually when i forget to charge my evic and it dies middle of the day) i smoke something like 2-3 ml and 15 cigarettes. Im fairly stable on my nicotine habits, so the math doesn't add up. 2ml of 18mg was supposed to be 36mg, more than enough to feel satisfied. But i really need those extra cigarettes.

Like i said, i have no scientific background on medicine to even try to explain the reasoning for this, but i'm pretty confident that nicotine absorption from vaping is different from smoking.

 

[Keili]

Wow, surprised none of this came up when I was doing research into vaping! Good to know, thanks for the info guys!

 

[DVap]

I don't know if Dr. F smoked and/or vapes, but I would love to see a scientist (ahem, DVap! LOL) weigh-in on this that has been on both sides. Or maybe Dr. F can take some current heavy smokers and try it out -- I suspect with that high of nicotine, they may get so stimmed-out that some will end up needing a cigarette! haha

I've always liked this particular study. This was done back in 1976 when nicotine gum was being developed, and the graph compares nicotine levels from smoking once per hour to chewing a piece of nicotine gum once per hour. The nicotine graph looks like a sawblade, sharp up, sharp down, sharp up, sharp down. The gum is very different, it takes hours to reach the nicotine concentration that the first cigarette achieves in minutes, but it doesn't exhibit the saw-blade appearance, it keeps going up and eventually maintains a nicotine level similar to the peak nicotine level of smoking, but without the steep drop-offs between.

In other words, like the nicotine gum, ecigs tend to buffer the nicotine level. The level doesn't increase that quickly, but once the level gets up there, it stay up there due to the gradual and continuous post-vape absorption.

I don't doubt that it would take something like a 50 mg liquid to give a nicotine spike over a short period to rival a cigarette, however, this would not be a wise strategy as the nicotine level from 50 mg eliquid would not drop sharply like a cigarette, and continued vaping at that level would push the plasma nicotine level higher and higher during the day to perhaps hundreds of nanograms per milliliter... cue nicotine sickness.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I got the impression that, specifically in the context of the EU capping juice nicotine percentages, Dr. Farsalinos was posing the question of whether or not it would be healthier to inhale less volume of vapor at nic higher levels versus more volume of vapor at lower levels. I think the question is valid and was posed to point out the hypocrisy of the EU claiming any concerns about health.

However, I don't think there should be any dispute that there is ample anecdotal evidence that the vast majority of vapers prefer more vapor at lower nic levels rather than vaping something as high as 50 mg.!

Somewhere it sticks in the far recesses of my admittedly addled brain that Dr. Farsalinos may have been a smoker and then vaper but I could easily be mistaken about that. However, that issue aside, he does seem to be in touch with real world vapers and vaping.

I'm all in with you in wanting more science about the 50 mg. versus lower levels. However, Dr. Farsalinos' comments in the VapeTeam broadcast leads me to believe that his further research will be likely focused on fighting overly restrictive vaping legislation rather than trying to pinpoint what types of things work best to help people quit smoking. It's sad, but sensible in light of the current political climate that is so hostile to vaping.

Yeah, again, I do not like the idea of capping nicotine levels for any reason -- that's going in the wrong direction. I also get that based on what they're fighting over there, at the end of the study he was maybe making more of a case against capping nicotine levels than really suggesting to go that high -- I do not mean to peck at his theory, it just kind of shocked me to consider 50 mg/mL, even in a "first generation" ecig.

As far as the lung inhale vs. mouth, I've also come to realize that I do slow-release "shallow" hits. I figured this out by showing a new-vaper how I inhale. He was taking it in so deep, and holding it there, that he couldn't even seem to exhale anything. Basically, I told him to inhale just to the throat and back out of the mouth and nose. That was the first time that I realized that I don't necessarily take it to the lungs, or at least not deep into the lungs. I still contend that even if the absorption is not as efficient in the lungs, going at least to the throat and out through the mouth and nose allows for more absorption than just the mouth, and also for feeling the nic (and not just TH).

 

[Johnnie Price]

I used to smoke 3 packs a day. More if I hit the bottle hard that day, and I was an alcoholic up until 5 years ago if that's any indication. About a decade ago I easily polished off 6 packs a day. I stepped down a bit. These days I vape 4 parts of 36 mg menthol mixed with 1 part of 24 mg WTA, and I still crave cigarettes on occasion. So I may step up to 48 mg in my mixture soon.

I feel less from the e-liquid than I do from cigarettes. The only thing that has ever kept me away from cigarettes for any period of time is dripping on a low ohm atomizer at 3.7 volts. That's why I finally grabbed a bottom feeder in the hopes that I can finally stop smoking 3-4 packs a week while at work, even though I hate mechanicals. So far it is working, but only time will tell.

 

[DVap]

Yeah, again, I do not like the idea of capping nicotine levels for any reason -- that's going in the wrong direction. I also get that based on what they're fighting over there, at the end of the study he was maybe making more of a case against capping nicotine levels than really suggesting to go that high -- I do not mean to peck at his theory, it just kind of shocked me to consider 50 mg/mL, even in a "first generation" ecig.

Of course any discussion of nicotine levels ignores the over-arching fact that nicotine is not the only thing that matters when it comes to smoking. You know as well as anyone that the difference between a 24 mg nicotine liquid and a high quality 24 mg WTA liquid is night and day.

Until the discussions and research acknowledge the critically important role of minor alkaloids in smoking versus vaping, the wrong questions will continue to be asked, and any answers derived from these wrong questions will be wrong answers.

 

[PeppermintPatty]

While I enjoy a good lung hit from time to time, 99.9% of the time I mouth vape only. My asthma acts up if I inhale regularly. I think if you enjoy lung hits and you don't have any trouble with them, more power to yah...I'm a bit envious. However, it is really nice that folks can vape, get their nicotine effects but not *have* to inhale. That means even people with extremely damaged lungs can still enjoy vaping. Yet another reason that vaping is totally awesome.

 

[Mr.Mann]

This study is very interesting. And absolutely matches my personal experience.

I have no scientific background in this area, but from my experience, nicotine absorption is different between analogs and vaping.

I'm a heavy smoker (around 35 cigarretes a day on average) trying to quit. Right now i'm vaping for about a month, but haven't completely drop the analogs. Sometimes i only have 1 cigarette a day, sometimes up to 15.
This is completely subjective, but i am the kind of guy that gets out of bed in the morning just to have a smoke. I found that the hardest time to skip the old cigarrete is right after i get out of bed. It seems to me there is a delay between vaping and feeling satisfied. My typical day i try to vape for 15m but i get anxious and end up going to the old habit. After those first moments, if i'm feeling committed, i can keep vaping for the rest of the day without much trouble. Usually i vape around 5ml of 18mg a day, which was supposed to be more nicotine than what i was taking before, but i never feel any overdose symptoms what so ever.

On my bad days (usually when i forget to charge my evic and it dies middle of the day) i smoke something like 2-3 ml and 15 cigarettes. Im fairly stable on my nicotine habits, so the math doesn't add up. 2ml of 18mg was supposed to be 36mg, more than enough to feel satisfied. But i really need those extra cigarettes.

Like i said, i have no scientific background on medicine to even try to explain the reasoning for this, but i'm pretty confident that nicotine absorption from vaping is different from smoking.

I appreciate the honesty of your post. Forgive me if I am out-of-line here, but I would venture a guess that what may be drawing you back to the cigarettes is not solely nicotine, but the other minor alkaloids plus whatever madness is added to the tobacco. The whole notion of craving a cigarette is supposedly akin to craving nicotine, but I think there is enough insight out there that shows that it is much more complex, chemically, than that. As I mentioned earlier, part of the issue I have with focusing so highly on nicotine in cigarettes -- which there obviously is a lot of -- is that it inches increasingly close to the notion that tobacco = nicotine and nicotine = tobacco. Nicotine is a major player in tobacco, yes, but while it may be the captain, the rest of the team plays strong supporting roles, and without those supporting roles, what do we have? Something very different: a one man show.

Setting all that aside, I would recommend (specifically you) trying WTA.

 

[Tom Servo]

If I vape like I smoked, it doesn't do much for me. It feels like an ultra-ultra-light cigarette. For a 25-30 cigarette/day person, that doesn't do it.

When I learned not to treat it like cigarettes, I got better results. Generally, I do this now:

• take a long, slow drag
• hold it in the mouth for a second or two
• inhale lightly through the nose
• exhale through the mouth

I get a slight lung hit that's fairly satisfying, and there's something very fulfilling about the large amount of vapor exhaled. I also taste more of the flavor that way.

(It's funny, really. Remember when we started smoking and we used to get that "ahhhh" after a long drag and a leisurely exhale? I get that with vaping. I'd really forgotten that feeling.)

If I'm in a hurry, I still find myself taking lung hits, but that's leftover compulsive behavior from smoking.

 

[bcastela]

I've always liked This was done back in 1976 when nicotine gum was being developed, and the graph compares nicotine levels from smoking once per hour to chewing a piece of nicotine gum once per hour. The nicotine graph looks like a sawblade, sharp up, sharp down, sharp up, sharp down. The gum is very different, it takes hours to reach the nicotine concentration that the first cigarette achieves in minutes, but it doesn't exhibit the saw-blade appearance, it keeps going up and eventually maintains a nicotine level similar to the peak nicotine level of smoking, but without the steep drop-offs between.

In other words, like the nicotine gum, ecigs tend to buffer the nicotine level. The level doesn't increase that quickly, but once the level gets up there, it stay up there due to the gradual and continuous post-vape absorption.

I don't doubt that it would take something like a 50 mg liquid to give a nicotine spike over a short period to rival a cigarette, however, this would not be a wise strategy as the nicotine level from 50 mg eliquid would not drop sharply like a cigarette, and continued vaping at that level would push the plasma nicotine level higher and higher during the day to perhaps hundreds of nanograms per milliliter... cue nicotine sickness.

Totally matches my experience. The first cigarette is the harder to quit. Very interesting graph



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[bcastela]

I appreciate the honesty of your post. Forgive me if I am out-of-line here, but I would venture a guess that what may be drawing you back to the cigarettes is not solely nicotine, but the other minor alkaloids plus whatever madness is added to the tobacco. The whole notion of craving a cigarette is supposedly akin to craving nicotine, but I think there is enough insight out there that shows that it is much more complex, chemically, than that. As I mentioned earlier, part of the issue I have with focusing so highly on nicotine in cigarettes -- which there obviously is a lot of -- is that it inches increasingly close to the notion that tobacco = nicotine and nicotine = tobacco. Nicotine is a major player in tobacco, yes, but while it may be the captain, the rest of the team plays strong supporting roles, and without those supporting roles, what do we have? Something very different: a one man show.

Setting all that aside, I would recommend (specifically you) trying WTA.

For sure. I have tried to quit before cold turkey and later with nicotine patches. The nicotine helps a lot, but there is something missing...

Never thought about wta. Since I'm trying to get a healthier lifestyle it seemed counter intuitive, but will have a look at that.

Thanks


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[twgbonehead]

I think that one of the reasons the patch is not very successful is the lack of that "sawtooth" effect. Smoking a cigarette gives that "quick rush". It's nowhere near as pronounced as it was in that first cigarette you ever smoked, but it's still there.

One of the major characteristics of vaping that is so powerful is that it to some extent it can duplicate this "sawtooth" behavior (albeit perhaps not as quickly).

As for inhalation techniques, do any of you take several "mouth puffs" and then inhale the whole lot into your lungs? If I'm not feeling the nic, this seems to help give that "wham" I'm missing.