My opinion on regulating, etc.

[memorysan]

[warning, I am stepping up on a soap box...read the entire post before you flame. Once you have read it, feel free to tear me apart if you wish.]

I believe that electronic cigarettes should be under the same regulations as analog cigarettes...to a point.

There should be regulations on sale to minors...enforced the same way the sale of analog cigarettes are.

There should be regulations against the advertising of electronic cigarettes to minors.

There should be a regulation to ensure that the amount of nicotine that is in cartridges and juices are what they are advertised to be.

There should be a regulation as to where juices can be manufactured to ensure the product follows safety regulations (meaning that the places where the juices are made should be held up to a standard of cleanliness, product consistency, etc.)

There should be warning labels as to the ingredients contained in cartridges and juices and the effects of nicotine on the labels (however slight they may be compared to analog cigarettes). [We all know that those warnings will not effect sales to smokers...we see those warnings on cigarette packs every day and ignore them...but it may keep non-smokers away.]

I want these regulations in place!! My reasons are three fold. First of all, it would ensure the safety of vapors that are depending on electronic cigarettes as a safe alternative to analog cigarettes. Second, it would keep minors away (as much as regulations keep minors away from analog cigarettes anyway). Third, it would give those that feel like they need to regulate electronic cigarettes a warm fuzzy so that they would be more likely to allow electronic cigarettes to get more mainstream.

Where there should not be regulations on electronic cigarettes:

Electronic cigarette juice is not flavored in order to make it more appealing to children...but rather to make it more appealing to adults. This should not be regulated. The solution should be that the sale of electronic cigarettes are regulated, just as analog cigarettes are, as to not be available to minors.

The smoking of electronic cigarettes in areas marked as "no smoking" areas should be allowed because these vapor devices do not create dangerous second hand smoke and are not a fire/burn hazard. They don't create litter either.

More of my opinions (since I'm putting my in here anyway):

I believe that scientists, being unbiased and using the scientific method, should study electronic cigarettes in great detail and publish the results widely.

I'm sure there are a lot of people that would like to know what the health risks are of using electronic cigarettes...the truth. These studies should be short term and long term to correctly inform the public as to the truth about electronic cigarettes. Since electronic cigarettes are advertised as a healthy alternative to analog cigarettes, there should also be studies that show an accurate comparison of health risks between the two methods of inhaling nicotine.

I want these studies done!! I want the truth to be told about what is going on with electronic cigarettes. If the companies have nothing to hide, then let the government in to do these studies and tell the world their results.

I say this because I believe it would help the cause that vapors are fighting for. It would be proof that electronic cigarettes are MUCH safer than analog cigarettes...and, if for some reason they are not, I would definitely like to know that to!

[Stepping down from the soap box. Now that you have read the whole thing, please comment. Tear my opinion to threads if you wish, I can take it.]

 

[Automaton]

In theory, I agree with you completely about what should be regulated.

And in practice, I agree with you completely that we need to have comprehensive studies done on the effects of e-cigarettes.

Now, let me explain why the first one is "in theory."

At the present moment, the FDA is getting away with twisting its own studies (which if you read them, actually prove that e-cigs are much safer than smoking) to say that e-cigs are as dangerous as cigs.

Given the current propaganda that they are pushing as fact, I believe it is dangerous to support regulation on e-cig products at the present moment. The public is being lied to, and we shouldn't be making decisions based on lies.

I want the studies done FIRST, I want the objective results shared in an objective way FIRST, and then we can talk about regulation.

Because the danger here, when this is being twisted into something it isn't, is that the government may over-regulate, and eventually ban e-cigs based on faulty or dishonest information.

We have already had two studies (in NZ and the US) showing that e-cigs are much safer than cigarettes. But they weren't big enough, and we need a lot more.

If these studies should happen to find, by some miracle of Murphy's Law, that e-cigarettes will in fact cause someone to drop dead of a random coronary explosion 5 years down the road, then by all means, regulate accordingly.

However, that result is highly unlikely.

What is more likely is that we will discover the obvious: inhaling ANYTHING that isn't pure air into your lungs, is worse for you than pure air. Duh.

But I suspect we will also find (as current studies already have) that e-cigs are leaps and bounds safer than smoking.

And of course, the main danger that e-cigs could potential pose is in the use of poorly produced e-juice, where the mixes are either inconsistent, resulting in unexpected doses of nicotine, or the products are subpar, such as non-consumable grade PG.

Of course, since e-cigs are a cool new thing, they should also be strictly limited to adults only, and carry warnings about the addictive nature of nicotine, if for no other reason than social duty.

These things ought to be regulated to ensure the maximum safety of e-cig users, and minimum "cool factor" to children. But only once the government gets its head on straight and starts looking at the real facts.

Until then, I think continuing as we are, by encouraging community and word-of-mouth of good companies, is the best policy.

 

[memorysan]

I agree with you that the studies need to be done first...but I do believe that the regulations need to be in place as soon as possible.

How long have e-cigs been around? Someone needs to jump in and get these studies done and widely, publicly disperse the true information. Once someone gets off their a** and does the studies, the regulations can be correctly put in place and everyone (on both sides of the fence) can breath easier (pun intended).

 

[Automaton]

I think about 4 years? Maybe a bit less? I could be mistaken - if so, vets, correct me. But at any rate it's a very new market.

The problem is fighting off the propaganda enough to convince people that the studies are worth doing. The FDA is trying to get everyone to believe e-cigs are the devil without having to provide any evidence. And that is the hold-up.

 

[BlueMoods]

No, no, and no. Quit trying or letting THEM regulated everything - FREEDOM, not regulation beyond being 18 required to purchace e cigs and juice. That's it. We are not sheep, we can research supplers and manufactuers, contact them, ask questions, arange to vist them etc.. let us think and do as each person sees fit for themselves and stop regulating the world to death.

At the rate it's going, in no time, they will be attaching though monitors to us and outlawing whaty THEY see as unfit, unhealthy or bad thoughts - stop regulating, let each person decide.

 

[Automaton]

...I really don't see the purpose of black-and-white thinking.

E-juice which is poorly made, or made with non-consumable grade ingredients, can kill you.

It's the same reason we have food standards.

The same reason we have medication standards.

I am totally with you that the government can, and frequently does, over-step the lines. But zero regulation on a product that can be lethal if mis-managed is not the answer to that.

We have had people (few and far between, but it's happened) wind up in the hospital over badly made e-juice. And it could happen to anyone. Yes, doing your research helps a ton, but it's no guarantee. We have suppliers listened on this site who went from awesome to terrible, and newbies can and do stumble on those sites and think that because it's listed here, they're good suppliers.

If you'd rather just let "the dumb people" die, the ones who didn't do their research before hand, or did do their research and just got unlucky, then that would qualify most of the people in this community, and probably you too.

And if you're really a fan of that approach, then you shouldn't ever get medical attention, either.

 

[Vini]

Yes to those regulations.

yes! regulations on sale to minors
yes! regulations against the advertising to minors
yes! regulations against the advertising as SAFE, until it's proven
yes! regulation to ensure that the amount of nicotine that is in cartridges and juices are what they are advertised to be
yes! regulation as to where juices can be manufactured to ensure the product follows safety regulations
yes! should be warning labels as to the ingredients contained in cartridges and juices


This kind of product must be regulated!
We inhale something believed to be safe, but manufactured in unknown locations following unknown rules...

Come on, people, tobacco was believed to be safe and healthily for centuries...

Wouldn't you feel better if your favorite supplier would be obligated to batch test cartos/attys/juice for safety? [yes they can easily afford it]


We do need a big study that will give us answer to our questions: is viping safe? what juice is safe? what attys/cartos are toxic?

The problem is, that if/when this kind of study will take place, testers most likely will take most advertised products... The old and poor quality ones.

... What is more likely is that we will discover the obvious: inhaling ANYTHING that isn't pure air into your lungs, is worse for you than pure air. Duh ...

)) +1 The best.

 

[Cyia]

My only problem is as much as we would all love to pick and choose what would and wouldn't be regulated, knowing the government and the DFA, all of it would be regulated. We would all be "screwed" in those nice flavors and juices. FDA is HUGE on gun hoeing about different flavors stand out to minors and there for tempts them to getting them. They banned flavored analogs for this reason even with the no sale to minors.
And in all honesty, it's only a matter of time before the FDA comes to the big wigs in china or BIG wigs in the EU to start shaking hands and making deals a bout regulating them. Sadly I would enjoy your e-cig now and hope and pray we don't get tail ended like the tobacco company does. Cause you know as soon as the mothers come out saying the flavors are tempting to their children and start rallies, we all our up [censored] creek so to speak. I want a lot of things in this world and just because I say I want them, doesn't mean I get them. And sadly this is just one of those cases. Unless every single e-cig vaper got up around the world and protested, I see the ship sinking fast and it's a sad reality. One I wish with all my heart wouldn't happen. So there is my 2 cents for the day on this one.

 

[evilferret]

Almost like the Tobacco companies saying smoking lettuce is as bad as cigarette and its the smoke that kills and not tobacco. Not really sure who wants to smoke lettuce though.

YouTube - Smoking Lettuce: Auto Tune the News #5

Skip to the part with the lettuce.

But seriously LETTUCE?

I have a feeling the Tobacco companies will monopolize "nicotine" since if you watch the real coverage they were really insistent on the whole "nicotine" and not smoke. Seems an easy jump from being a tobacco company to becoming a nicotine company.

But I agree somebody should regulate this industry either a gov't organization (HAH!) or a consumer advocate program for e-cigs. How easy would it be for one bad batch of juice to kill or hospitalize people?

Anybody remember the Chinese baby formula scandal? One manufacturer put fertilizer (well a chemical found in fertilizer) into the baby food to pump the nitrogen levels.

Also noticed a much higher rate of allergic reactions from Chinese based fluids than American based (wish I had more data though).

 

[Automaton]

evilferret - Well... that's KIND OF true... sort of.

Breathing in burning stuff, regardless of the stuff, is extremely bad for you and damages your lungs.

However, not everything you can burn and breath in has all the other crap that's in cigs.

So... it's a stretch on the part of Big Tobacco, but compared to most of the lies they tell, it's a half-truth.

I am also concerned about Chinese juice - I don't vape it.

I'm more than happy to buy Chinese stock batts, but that account of someone going to the hospital I mentioned earlier? Chinese juice. It had double the amount of nic advertised, and the PG was industrial grade - in other words, BAD for vaping.

And that's why we do need some regulation, particularly on juice.

Cyia - You know what happens if they do ban nice flavors?

Vendors start selling flavorless juice. Get it in nic strength slightly higher than what you need, go to the grocery store, and buy your own LorAnns.

Just like how Seedman's sells flavoring to add to your tobacco.

Prohibition has never worked, and it's not going to start working now.

 

[Poppa D]

I agree with regulation.
I would like vaping to be held to an alcahol type standard, it is very similar. Rather than an tobacco standard.
The acahol standard is simple and straight forward with many of the same bench marks.
Vaping needs to survive the "drug wars" mentality we have in our society.

 

[evilferret]

Hey I'll take half truth over outright lies.

I just have a feeling if the FDA does regulate e-cigs the big Tobacco companies will become our new juice suppliers.

First make the public know nicotine is "safe" and its the smoke thats evil.

Than BAM e-cigs no smoke yet have your nic!

Its like a game of chess with moves within moves within moves...

 

[BlueMoods]

yea and pesticides sprayed on the vegies wal mart sells can kill you or caus cancer too. Clorine is HIGHLY corrosive and toxic, even the fumes can gel your lungs but, it's in city water. Slat peter (sodium nitate) is toxic but it's in bacon, ham and other cured meats and, was once given to soldiers for it other side effect. Simple saly exaserbates hypertension. Need I list more of the stuff we ingest in one way or another that the government says is fine?

Is anything involved in vaping any worse? NO! do they regulate foods tightly? No, 25% of what's in foods does not have to be listed or made known to us at all, that means that hot dog might have a rat, human finger, hair, bodily fluids, whatever in the mix and we know nothing of it. Regulate e gigs to death fine, then regulate vanilla, lemon, rum, ALL extracts, those have PG too and, omg it's in anti freeze so it will harm or kill you! PLEASE!

If we avoided everything that is a potential health risk we'd die of thirst or starvation, e juice is no worse and better than a lot of it so leave it alone, let us as individuals decide what heath risks we are willing to accept. Telling me I can't have e juice is the same as telling me I have to go to a modern doctor, which I have NEVER done in my life and never will do. There are herbal, natural heath aids that are as safe and effective if not more so. Yes I have broken bones, had mumps, chicken pox, pneumonia, strep and more, but I'm still here and heathy, more so now that i don't smoke tobacco. We don't need to be regulated, we need to be allowed to think, live and decide for ourselves.

 

[Poppa D]

The word/term tobacco doesnt need to be associated with eliquid/nicotene laced liquid. Run from the tabacco its taboo. Stick with adult natured liquid that can be rated, classified, and measured. I foresee a nice bottle of Geoff in the future.

 

[Krys]

I am afraid that when they start regulating it. They will tax it as well in the same manner as tobacco or even worse. How about drug regulations? Hmm I went to a local cigarette store and I asked the owner why they do not have e-cigs. He told me because they are bad bla bla bla. Then I saw some nice not regulated drugs next to a cashier with nice labels aka "ecstasy", and "legal version of ........." - "Salvia divinorum". Guess who's buying them ? Also guess what is realistically much more dangerous for teenagers ? E-cig or drugs?

 

[AttyPops]

It's a catch-22. If they tax it... what are they taxing? Nicotine. All the other ingredients are standard stuff. If they tax nicotine, they have to tax the gum, patches, lozenges.... lol. What about potatoes and tomatoes (small amounts of nic)? What justification do they have for taxing it? No harm has yet been proven.

It's the SCIENCE that needs to be done; and proper peer-reviewed type of science. I'm sick of the lies and manipulations ... Anti-freeze, bad Chinese juice, etc. It's valid harm reduction and USA juice seems safe enough for the moment.

Regulation would clean up the industry... but it would be regulated like a food product, not a drug product. If we have laws about selling alcohol and tobacco we can have em for e-juice too. Food cleanliness/prep standards could apply here too.

I think there is a difference in Government's ability to apply standards to ensure reasonable safety (i.e. clean water acts) and mandating/banning legal substances. If they wish to outlaw tobacco I would GUESS/PREDICT they better get ready for a real "Tea Party" ... and not that stupid Republican crap that calls themselves the tea party... I mean a real tax revolt. Just remember what happened with tea in the USA in 1773 ... THAT was a tea party.

The government is broke, fair taxation is a necessary thing.... but continually socking it to 20% of the population is getting out of hand. Regulation in terms of helping ensure safety where possible is dutiful governing, as long as it isn't too burdensome.

 

[Automaton]

Dude, we all vape. No one here is trying to say e-juice is nasty horrible stuff.

But it's a simple fact that people have wound up in the hospital by badly made e-juice. I think at least a basic standard of juice being the nic strength it says it is, and suppliers using consumable-grade ingredients is pretty reasonable.

Radon is coming through my floor right now, I'm drinking coffee, and vaping nicotine. This is not a "fear of the world" thing. This is a "let's find shady e-juice makers before they KILL SOMEONE" thing.

Can't you see the difference?

E-juice, properly made, is not particularly hazardous. E-juice, badly made, can be deadly.

This is really simple stuff.

This is not the same as choosing a Western doctor vs. an alternative practitioner. This is like getting to pick one doctor from 10, and one of them wants to pump you full of ground up rocks just to see what happens.

Big difference.

yea and pesticides sprayed on the vegies wal mart sells can kill you or caus cancer too. Clorine is HIGHLY corrosive and toxic, even the fumes can gel your lungs but, it's in city water. Slat peter (sodium nitate) is toxic but it's in bacon, ham and other cured meats and, was once given to soldiers for it other side effect. Simple saly exaserbates hypertension. Need I list more of the stuff we ingest in one way or another that the government says is fine?

Is anything involved in vaping any worse? NO! do they regulate foods tightly? No, 25% of what's in foods does not have to be listed or made known to us at all, that means that hot dog might have a rat, human finger, hair, bodily fluids, whatever in the mix and we know nothing of it. Regulate e gigs to death fine, then regulate vanilla, lemon, rum, ALL extracts, those have PG too and, omg it's in anti freeze so it will harm or kill you! PLEASE!

If we avoided everything that is a potential health risk we'd die of thirst or starvation, e juice is no worse and better than a lot of it so leave it alone, let us as individuals decide what heath risks we are willing to accept. Telling me I can't have e juice is the same as telling me I have to go to a modern doctor, which I have NEVER done in my life and never will do. There are herbal, natural heath aids that are as safe and effective if not more so. Yes I have broken bones, had mumps, chicken pox, pneumonia, strep and more, but I'm still here and heathy, more so now that i don't smoke tobacco. We don't need to be regulated, we need to be allowed to think, live and decide for ourselves.

 

[DC2]

Unless every single e-cig vaper got up around the world and protested, I see the ship sinking fast and it's a sad reality. One I wish with all my heart wouldn't happen.

I agree with you, and I see a lot of posters who may be in for quite a shock.

If the FDA wins the court case, most people will be stuck buying from China.
Hopefully they will start making some better tasting juices.

If the FDA loses the court case, they will regulate as a tobacco product.
And that could mean limiting the nicotine strength, and removing the flavors.

Again, most people in the know will probably be buying juice from China
Hopefully they will start making some better tasting juices.

People talk about a black market developing in nicotine juice.
I just don't see that happening at this point.

Not enough money to be made to justify the risk.

 

[Cyia]

My father made a good point. E-cigs become popular, FDA doesn't regulate the mg of the juice per bottle, some jack off or maybe a few 100 of them go and buy 36mg bottle of juice and drinks it, vape it till he passes out, does something really stupid, which if someone can get into a car drunk off their .... and not think about it, what's to say someone buys a big mg bottle of juice and over doses thinking they needed that many mg? it doesn't say how much mg we consumed in analogs. So a newbie would go ok I need as much nic as possible and then bam, dead. If regulated at least in the mg sense, it would be a lot easier to pin it on stupidity and choice rather than the juice maker in court. Without the mg of juices completely regulated, what says a family who's dumb uncle over doses and dies, what stops the family from suing the juice makers? By the FDA at least regulating the mg of the bottles, it actually saves manufacturer's time and money and law suits.

Not only that, some nice printed instructions would be nice, but then that just helps the FDA and their claim of it being a drug giving device and not tobacco. So best situation with being cornered would be to regulate how much nicotine the public can buy and so forth. I'm sure there is also a long list of paper work in all that statement but I'm not going that in depth with it

 

[t9c]

I don't give a rat's ... if they want to regulate and tax nic juice. It would probably be a beneficial regulation. The flavorings can be bought at grocery stores and many other places because they are food additives. Most likely they're already under the FDA's thumb. PG & VG are the other components of juice and you know they're regulated and readily available.

I and many other current vapers already have a stash of empty carts that will last forever (or until broken). The cart filler is just regular old polyfill you can by at any craft store or pet supply. again, probably already regulated.

So what do we have left of a PV that can't be bought anywhere outside of China? The atomizer and pre-made battery assemblies.

Mods use regular off the shelf lithium ion rechargeables and some sort of regulator, another couple of things that can be bought from electronics suppliers.

You could make your own or buy someone else's mod and not be under any federal regulation.

But you need that atty! Currently, I believe they're only made in China. But I also believe they could be made fairly easily in the US and other countries.

So if the FDA regulates/taxes the e-cig, heck just build your own or buy someone else's pre-built or "kit".

Right now, the atty is the only missing link to getting around the future FDA regulation, given that they will regulate & tax the nic juice.