My thoughts about sub-ohm and latest VV/VW devices...

[beckdg]

ex:
Go to the noob section and read the number of posts from those starting out that have no idea why their brand new ce4 that came in their starter kit tastes burnt.
They need the temp control technology a lot more than those of us that have been using RDAs for a year or more, and know when a wick needs more juice.

Shudders

Thanks but no thanks.

 

[Ryedan]

NO, I meant exactly what I said. It would be a mistake to exclude other segments for the sake of just one. (and it doesn't matter which "just one")

Agreed tj. There is no wrong way to vape as long as it's safe and it's keeping us from smoking. That's why no matter how I like to vape I never put down the 'other side'

ex:
Go to the noob section and read the number of posts from those starting out that have no idea why their brand new ce4 that came in their starter kit tastes burnt.
They need the temp control technology a lot more than those of us that have been using RDAs for a year or more, and know when a wick needs more juice.

I got way more burnt hits vaping clearos when I was using those all the time than I do these days with my typical rebuildable at 30 watts. The DNA40 is not going to address the low power segment of the market, but I hope this technology gets there sooner rather than later. It will be more complex than what's there now, but I think it can be simplified to suit the market. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[dr g]

I got way more burnt hits vaping clearos when I was using those all the time than I do these days with my typical rebuildable at 30 watts. The DNA40 is not going to address the low power segment of the market, but I hope this technology gets there sooner rather than later. It will be more complex than what's there now, but I think it can be simplified to suit the market. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

why wouldnt it address the low power segment? it would be great!

I could have sworn I heard Brad say in the Busardo interview that the chip in the DNA40 is capable of more than 40 watts, but they are keeping it at 40 for a variety of reasons.

oh yeah for sure, evolv does not run its chips anywhere near capacity.

 

[beckdg]

The DNA40 is not going to address the low power segment

I'd pretty much parrot the rest of this post.

But why wouldn't the low power segment find this plausible except to see 40W and mistakingly pass it by?

Temp control should limit the power fine for them. It's 40W+ segment that's missing out IMHO.

I want a DNA 100 in a lp reo grand...

 

[KenD]

I got way more burnt hits vaping clearos when I was using those all the time than I do these days with my typical rebuildable at 30 watts. The DNA40 is not going to address the low power segment of the market, but I hope this technology gets there sooner rather than later. It will be more complex than what's there now, but I think it can be simplified to suit the market. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Won't it though? You can set the DNA40 to 4w and still benefit from the temperature control (though I'm thinking you'd need to have a terrible clearo to burn the wick/liquid at 4w). The price will be an obstacle of course, and the devices will be more bulky than egos. There's also a learning curve, but it's not more complicated to learn than vv/vw in the first place.

 

[Ryedan]

My bad, I said 'low power segment' but I meant low power starter devices. Cigalikes, eGo class, the sort of thing new inexperienced vapers buy first. IMO this is the biggest market for temperature limiting or control technology, both in units sold and in need and the DNA40 doesn't fit in there, LOL.

After that the low/medium power, more expensive mod market and then high power devices once there are high power boards for them.

Just my opinion of course . How do you guys see it?

 

[tj99959]

I'd pretty much parrot the rest of this post.

But why wouldn't the low power segment find this plausible except to see 40W and mistakingly pass it by?

Temp control should limit the power fine for them. It's 40W+ segment that's missing out IMHO.

I want a DNA 100 in a lp reo grand...

Because at that stage of the game they want it for $9.95

 

[Ryedan]

I want a DNA 100 in a lp reo grand...

Oh gawd ... I would be on that in a flash !!!

 

[beckdg]

Oh gawd ... I would be on that in a flash !!!

[emoji7]

My precious.

 

[ukeman]

Hmm so I guess I'll keep some of my high watt boxes around after all... for .25 dual coils with 26g wire for those times I want 65 or more watts.

I mostly want my single coil rebuildables though and I just learned that these dna devices carry lot of VOLTAGE... for up to 2 ohms, 30g wire and lots of wraps .

I've got a lot to look forward to with the Flask dna40 and temp control.

 

[Katya]

Ahem...

[emoji56]

That 66% water was in the vapor.

99% pg or 99 % vg is indeed 99%.

Pg and vg are hygroscopic in nature and will pick up water immediately when exposed to normal atmospheric conditions. Let alone when inhaled or blown into a bowl of ice water.

Seriously, not going there again... I was talking about vapor. The clouds, the stuff we exhale. In real life. So yes, there is plenty of water vapor in our e-cig vapor.

Nicotine is also highly hygroscopic.

Not to mention that our eliquids are not 100% PG or 100% VG either--they often contain other additives, like water (always added to VG, ~12-20%, to make it less viscous--glycerol is as thick as molasses and completely unvapeable unless diluted), plus various flavorings, sweeteners, colorings, extracts, etc.

 

[dr g]

My bad, I said 'low power segment' but I meant low power starter devices. Cigalikes, eGo class, the sort of thing new inexperienced vapers buy first. IMO this is the biggest market for temperature limiting or control technology, both in units sold and in need and the DNA40 doesn't fit in there, LOL.

After that the low/medium power, more expensive mod market and then high power devices once there are high power boards for them.

Just my opinion of course . How do you guys see it?

remember how much that starter gear used to cost?

 

[ukeman]

I'd pretty much parrot the rest of this post.

But why wouldn't the low power segment find this plausible except to see 40W and mistakingly pass it by?

Temp control should limit the power fine for them. It's 40W+ segment that's missing out IMHO.

I want a DNA 100 in a lp reo grand...

Maybe thats why my Origen b/f set at .25 ohms wasn't right on my LP Grand... darn.

I had to take it up to .5 and its not ideal.

 

[Ryedan]

remember how much that starter gear used to cost?

Cigalikes and eGos; I know how much they cost now. You have to give me a bit more so I understand where you're going with this though.

 

[Katya]

Agreed tj. There is no wrong way to vape as long as it's safe and it's keeping us from smoking. That's why no matter how I like to vape I never put down the 'other side'

That has not been determined yet. There well may be (a wrong way to vape). Who knows. Dr. Farsalinos is looking into this high wattage and high temperature vaping and its potential dangers as we speak.

E-cigarette research: temperature of evaporation

Continuing our commitment for unbiased research on e-cigarettes, we are now launching a new campaign for what we consider to be THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect in e-cigarette safety and future development: TEMPERATURE OF EVAPORATION. Although e-cigarettes do not combust any material, heat is necessary to generate the vapor (aerosol) which is subsequently inhaled by the users. This can result in thermal decomposition of some e-cigarette ingredients, releasing potentially toxic chemicals (most commonly aldehydes, such as formaldehyde, acetaldehyde and acrolein).

BTW, even though the crowdfunding campaign is addressed mostly to professionals and not e-cigarette consumers, anyone can contribute.

 

[Ryedan]

That has not been determined yet. There well may be (a wrong way to vape). Who knows. Dr. Farsalinos is looking into this high wattage and high temperature vaping and its potential dangers as we speak.

E-cigarette research: temperature of evaporation

I hear ya Katya, that's why I said 'as long as it's safe'. Right now I believe coil temperature is determined by how much juice is on the wire and what the juice is made up of (not watts applied). What it's made up of also influences its degradation point. How many watts per square inch we apply to the coil surface will determine how much liquid volume we need to keep that coil surface wet. IMO 10 watts can be as bad as 100 watts, depending on build variables.

But that's just my opinion and I've been wrong before . I hope Dr. Farsalinos' research will really help quantify this stuff. Maybe the DNA40 temperature control will also help us learn. It's a tool that should make the research easier to do.

BTW, even though the crowdfunding campaign is addressed mostly to professionals and not e-cigarette consumers, anyone can contribute.

I checked it out again just now and I will do that. The last time I was there I thought the only contribution that could be given was $500. If you work the page a bit further, you can lower the amount. Good stuff

 

[dr g]

Cigalikes and eGos; I know how much they cost now. You have to give me a bit more so I understand where you're going with this though.

ah just the old argument that 150+ is nothing compared to how much was spent on cigs. and a small price to pay for your health.

 

[Katya]

I hear ya Katya, that's why I said 'as long as it's safe'. Right now I believe coil temperature is determined by how much juice is on the wire and what the juice is made up of (not watts applied). What it's made up of also influences its degradation point. How many watts per square inch we apply to the coil surface will determine how much liquid volume we need to keep that coil surface wet. IMO 10 watts can be as bad as 100 watts, depending on build variables.

Yup. I had a chat with the good doctor in another thread and asked him if he would be willing to run some tests on different wires and what happens to them when we heat them up--repeatedly. He's going to look into this--either in this or in his next study.

But that's just my opinion and I've been wrong before . I hope Dr. Farsalinos' research will really help quantify this stuff. Maybe the DNA40 temperature control will also help us learn. It's a tool that should make the research easier to do.

He's aware of the DNA 40 and will be testing it--and the V.I.R. Very exciting.

I checked it out again just now and I will do that. The last time I was there I thought the only contribution that could be given was $500. If you work the page a bit further, you can lower the amount. Good stuff

I just deleted the amount that was in the box and typed the amount I was comfortable donating (hint: it was muuuuuch less than $500).

 

[Katya]

On a completely unrelated side note... well, not really but sorta....

Dr G! Calling Dr G!!!

Since you have a DNA40 device... Could you do me a favor? Can you wrap a large surface area build and let me know what the performance is of it? I'm thinking something like 30awg on a 2.5mm mandrel, 18 or 19 wraps on each coil, dual coil...

What I'm curious is what kinda of lag you do or don't see from the DNA40 given a larger build like this. Do you still see a practically instant heat up and vapor production?

This post may (or may not) be of interest to you. I found it very interesting. There's no such thing as a free lunch, after all.

DNA40 – The New Paradigm

Those of you who may have been following my writings probably remember me saying, several times, that resistance just isn’t as important as it used to be. I have been pondering that and trying to figure out a way to explain it better. Then it dawned on me, with this new technology there really is a whole new Paradigm regarding coil optimization.

Brandon kept saying during the beta that temperature should be adjusted to your particular juice, and that wattage equated to vape volume. I finally realized he was right but only if you have adequate juice delivery.

The new paradigm is that it is now all about coil surface area and juice delivery.

(For the sake of this discussion lets assume I have set the DNA at 420 degrees and 40w.)

Lets take Coil Surface Area first.
Since the DNA now controls by temperature, and achieves that temperature regardless of the resistance of the coil (within its specified range) then, assuming you have adequate juice delivery, more coil surface area will equal more vape! The coil resistance is an element, but it is only the “result” of the surface area, the surface area is what will drive the volume of vape.

• Lets say you have a coil that is 5 wraps around a 2mm mandrel and you have a wick that can keep the coil saturated. You fire the DNA and the wattage starts out 40w until it hits 420 degrees a split second later, then the DNA throttles back the wattage to maintain the 420. At this point the wattage starts to hover around 9-13 watts and maintains that for the duration of your hit.

• Now, take that same setup but do 7 wraps instead of 5, thus increasing the surface area by about 29%. Those 7 coils are now being maintained at 420 degrees, and DNA is settling at 12-15 watts to maintain it. Assuming you still kept the coil saturated with juice, you now have 29% more heated surface area, all of it at the same 420 degrees, consequently you are vaporizing more juice.

The theoretical limit would be when you have enough saturated surface area to barley maintain the 420 degrees with the DNA putting out a continuous 40 watts. This is where your juice delivery system will come into play.

Now lets talk about Juice Delivery.

Remember, the DNA now controls by temperature, and the amount of juice presented to your coil has a direct effect on that temperature. In other words, more juice has a cooling effect which the DNA will compensate for with more wattage. Less juice and your coil will get hotter quicker and the DNA will compensate by putting out less wattage. Hence the benefit of no dry hits.

I was observing a coil I made on a S.O.D. dripper. When I first dripped the outside surface (not touching the wick) of the coil would remain wet. This told me the “coil” was fully saturated. As I fired it got to the point where the wick was still wet but the outside of the coil was dry, and as a consequence there was less vapor. This was also associated by a reduction in wattage by the DNA. When I refilled the S.O.D. the wattage went back up again and the coil was wet again.

• So, for a given coil, you will maximize your vapor if you can keep the coil saturated.
• If your juice delivery cant keep the coil saturated the DNA will just throttle back. It wont do any good to double your coil surface area if your juice delivery cant keep up.
• I honestly believe we will find that juice delivery systems will become our next bottleneck. We can easily play with wire gauges and number of wraps (twisted wire, double coils etc) to maximum surface area, but keeping that coil WET as we throw large surface areas at it will be the challenge. New wick materials, or maybe even revisiting some old ones, and innovative tanks that can keep up with the heat load of various surface areas, without flooding, will be the next area we need to focus on.

The moral of this story is: Dont worry about resistance, concentrate on tweaking your surface area to maximize your juice delivery system instead.

 

[Ryedan]

Yup. I had a chat with the good doctor in another thread and asked him if he would be willing to run some tests on different wires and what happens to them when we heat them up--repeatedly. He's going to look into this--either in this or in his next study.

Sounds good to me. What we really need to quantify is how all the variables work together in vaping. It's not a difficult problem as these things go, but it's complex enough to require a scientific approach and statistical analysis. I don't think Dr. Farsalinos is going to do this for us, but he may take us far enough so someone else can continue and finish the work from there.