Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

[Influence]

Is it ok to use a PG/VG base containing already nicotine ? I thought the nicotine doesn't like the heat, that was the reason of my question, by adding the nicotine after all the steeping

Do you know any good internet shops who sells natural tobacco leaves (latakia, burley, virginia flue cured, oriental, turkish...) and cigars in US and could ship international ?

Thank you

 

[regal55]

As far as quality of product goes, N-E-T.com makes and sells extremely good NET juices and extracts made from simple-soak macerated natural tobacco. Whether or not N-E-T.com is a good choice for you as far as other considerations---price, shipping, prompt delivery, etc.---depends on other factors. Based on your large first order, you'll have the information to make those decisions soon enough.

The list of NET vendors on the first post of this thread notes which vendors ship internationally.

You mention the "uncertainty of result" with making your own NETs. I have personally produced more than 40 macerated extracts, and I find no uncertainty at all in the process, at least compared to the risk and investment, which are minimal. Making home-based macerated extracts is straightforward and easy. When done with common sense and a modest amount of savvy, the results are superb. Numerous posters here have tried my homemade NET extracts and juices, and I feel confident that they will agree that mine are on a par with offerings from the best retail NET vendors.

I think your group would benefit greatly in enjoyment, enthusiasm, and camaraderie if just one or two of your members starts home-extracting natural tobacco. A single ounce of tobacco can yield enough extract from a simple, quick maceration to make 500-750ml of DIY NET eliquid. That's 20 bottles of 30ml each. And four or five extracts can be made at a time.

A number of long threads on ECF are dedicated to making natural tobacco extracts at home. Two of those threads are linked below. i hope you'll check them out.

Slow Cooker Extraction of Tobacco
Cold Maceration of Tobacco

Trust me: Anyone who knows his way around a kitchen can do this. A big pot for the water bath, some glass jars with lids for the macerations, and a drip-coffee cone for filtering are the only required equipment, besides supplies of liquid nic, PG/VG, paper or poly felt filters, storage bottles for the extracts, and dropper bottles for the DIY NETs liquids you'll make. The time spent is well worth the effort, and the cost of wonderful homemade NETs is ridiculously low compared to buying retail NETs and shipping them to France.

I couldn't agree more, DIY Nets for the home/dripper vaping and buy the exotica sweet stuff for clearrromizers when on the go. It so easy to diy a net, I recommend starting with 2 Captian Black Dark Cav and H&H Vango Vanilla (you can vape this stuff at 20W). Now we have to support our net suppliers and thats where the turkish, Ennglish, and perque blends come in. I have had little success diying these nets. Also one in particular in American Spirit from net.com, its flavor is very special but I would have no idea where to begina diy brew.

 

[MikeNice81]

You treat your extract just like you would use a DIY flavoring. In other words you add anywhere from 17-20% for pipe tobacco and 20-25% or more for cigar extracts. That goes in your base of PG/VG and nicotine. Steeping is required for the juice you make.

You can use a glass jar, like a large baby food jar. Pour in about 80 mls of PG and heat it to 150F. Then start adding your chosen tobacco. Once the tobacco absorbs as much PG as it can take you top off the PG until it just covers the tobacco. Remove from heat cap the jar and store it in a room temperature dark space. Once a week you can re-heat the jar and mix up the extract. Four to six weeks for pipe tobacco and six to eight weeks for cigars. When your extract is ready you can filter it several different ways. I use an coffee press. Some use cotton place at the needle end of a 20-30 ml syringe. Filter your extract into a bottle and label it. There you have it. I have done 70+ extracts, many on your list. It is for all intents and purposes the same extract you buy from extract vendors. The difference? No international shipping shipping and pennies per ml instead of half francs.

Now I have your secrets. *maniacal evil laugh*

Seriously, there are many ways to do it. I personally start off by putting the tobacco in the jar and then adding 100% PG. Then I give the jar a six hour bath in warm water. I keep the temperature just hot enough to melt chocolate. So, Around 110 - 120 degrees fahrenheit. After that I store them in a dark closet for five weeks. For filtering I gravity filter them using 3 micron filter paper and a funnel.

It gives a different final taste, but it still is a good representation of the original tobacco. Boomer's stuff is potent and flavorful, but gunks coils much quicker. I can get 4ml+ on a single wick with minimal gunking. With Boomer's extracts you get a great experience, but the coil and wick aren't going to last much past 2ml.

Honestly, I want to try Boomer's maceration method with my filtering to see what the final results are. I can't imagine they would be anything other than awesome. The point is, there are many ways to do it. Experimentation is the key at this point because we are all pioneering the process.

Saving the nicotine for the end is recommended because it may increase shelf life of the final extract. Bill has extract that has held up fine for a year. Nicotine will break down faster than the tobacco extract it seems. So, if you plan on keeping extracts around for quite a while, (which is easy to do if you extract multiple 60ml batches) separation is probably wiser.

 

[boomerdude]

I think I posted in the cold maceration thread on how I layer cigars to extract. I was doing a cigar when it struck me that I could take Maduro or Oscuro wraps and extract just those leaves to mix with single varieties. Thing is, the cigars I would use are really expensive, especially for an experiment. I may just do it anyway. My philosophy for extracting is, " Time is of the essence " and no amount of heat is going to get you what you have after a good long steep. I have really high hopes for the McCllelland Dominican Glory Maduro that is stewing on my shelf. Something tells me that's going to be a kickin vape.

Now I have your secrets. *maniacal evil laugh*

Seriously, there are many ways to do it. I personally start off by putting the tobacco in the jar and then adding 100% PG. Then I give the jar a six hour bath in warm water. I keep the temperature just hot enough to melt chocolate. So, Around 110 - 120 degrees fahrenheit. After that I store them in a dark closet for five weeks. For filtering I gravity filter them using 3 micron filter paper and a funnel.

It gives a different final taste, but it still is a good representation of the original tobacco. Boomer's stuff is potent and flavorful, but gunks coils much quicker. I can get 4ml+ on a single wick with minimal gunking. With Boomer's extracts you get a great experience, but the coil and wick aren't going to last much past 2ml.

Honestly, I want to try Boomer's maceration method with my filtering to see what the final results are. I can't imagine they would be anything other than awesome. The point is, there are many ways to do it. Experimentation is the key at this point because we are all pioneering the process.

Saving the nicotine for the end is recommended because it may increase shelf life of the final extract. Bill has extract that has held up fine for a year. Nicotine will break down faster than the tobacco extract it seems. So, if you plan on keeping extracts around for quite a while, (which is easy to do if you extract multiple 60ml batches) separation is probably wiser.

 

[Vicman]

I was very impressed by my initial tasting of Petner's Pipe too. Are you picking up the raisin?

I really don't taste raisin yet. I taste Virginia and Burley with a strong rum flavor at the end of the exhale which rounds it off nicely. However, it has been years since I had a raisin and not sure what I am looking for as I may have forgot the flavor. Maybe it is there but I don't notice it. Gonna let it sit for another week or two then try again to see how it changes over time. However, will be loading up some PDST or Admiral's Pipe in a nautilus tank tonight for the Bears Game. Hopefully it will be as good as it was on the magma. Will report on it soon.

 

[MikeNice81]

I think I posted in the cold maceration thread on how I layer cigars to extract. I was doing a cigar when it struck me that I could take Maduro or Oscuro wraps and extract just those leaves to mix with single varieties. Thing is, the cigars I would use are really expensive, especially for an experiment. I may just do it anyway. My philosophy for extracting is, " Time is of the essence " and no amount of heat is going to get you what you have after a good long steep. I have really high hopes for the McCllelland Dominican Glory Maduro that is stewing on my shelf. Something tells me that's going to be a kickin vape.

I was going to chop the Room 101 I recently extracted into small medallions before soaking. I did two, but the wrapper was so tough it actually broke the cigar cutter trying to get through it. So, I tried with a knife, and it was rough going. I ended up just going with something simillar to the chop-o-matic method. It turned out pretty good. I won't deny that yours come out more potent and closer to the original. The Havana you sent me was so strong it was in the HOL territory only with better definition.

 

[Brobdingnagian]

You are in for a surprise with Balkan ! That;s got some real bite to it compared to HHV. Which GeJ's did you you order ?

Indeed. Bombay may be more of a 'Beginner's Latakia', but I find that I enjoyed Balkan even moreso. I really can't describe the flavor, other than that I can vape it all day.

RE: Skeebo:

I wonder, which of the HHV juices were your favorites, Skeebo?

I really enjoyed Shadow, Legend, Maple Eh?, and Dragon's Fire back in the day. Have not tried Gaia yet.

If you like tobaccos that pack a punch, Latakia will be right up your alley. I either go for that or a Turkish blend if I've had a stressful day/moment, really stops my "remembrance of analog days" cravings, if you know what I mean.

Personally, I like Dover Court and Coventry from NETCom over GeJ's Vita Bella, but my first 10ml bottle of VB that I ordered was delicious.

My other GeJ favorite is Acadian Gold.... though I've been too broke to order some more; I'm just adding flue-cured Virginia extract to the Chocktaw Perique I got for the moment.

I may be a few pages behind, so, sorry if anyone else already asked you this.

--------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT:Also, my 1:1 Magma clone with copper airflow-control arrived from Fasttech this afternoon.

What do I have to say about it? I'm running a double twisted 32g kanthal coil that hit approximately 1.5 Ω, loosely wrapped and well-torched, heats from the center just fine and no hot legs!

The flavor is amazing. Simply amazing. Even with the AFC halfway open and a single coil, this is the best I've ever had Dover Court taste.

And, as an added bonus, it threaded into my brass VAMO (which surprised the heck out of me) without an ego-ego adapter.

Anyone considering getting a Plume Veil? Forgettaboutit; get a Magma: the Plume Veil is going to leak all over you if you go a drop or two over when dripping, as the bottom airflow channels are lined up with where the wick would touch the deck in a standard build- this means that the well is a very short distance from the bottom air intakes (horrible design feature, IMO. The well is useless) The Magma does not have this flaw, does not crackle and flood/ get juice all over the place.

Plus, it hits great at 5.5w. 5.5w! Now I just need to get more devices and more Magmas to put on them.

Thanks to everyone who suggested the Magma!

I just wish I would have done a bit more research before getting the Plume Veil.

I'm going to re-purpose these plume veils, as they are now obsolete to me.

EDIT #2: Seems as if opening up both of the smallest airflow holes does pretty good, as well.

Still getting clouds of flavor, and vapor. I think I've settled in at 15mg for now, but might consider some more 12mg juices in the near future.

 

[Dusty_D]

Not much you can fault on a Magma, other than the longer than normal 510 connector. Glad that you're enjoying yours.

5.5W, really?! on a double twisted 32g? Really?!

 

[Brobdingnagian]

Not much you can fault on a Magma, other than the longer than normal 510 connector. Glad that you're enjoying yours.

5.5W, really?! on a double twisted 32g? Really?!

It works pretty well at 7w, too.

Better for those short puffs where you don't want a huge blast of vapor at all once.

I'd better twist up 25 feet of this wire. You know, for the next 6 months.

what's funny is that the wick is a little on the small size, so it's just barely grazing the coil.

When I checked the coil (didn't really dry burn because I had the coil pinched in some pliers and just torched it until I couldn't see any more annealing burning off) I was pretty surprised to find the resistance exactly where I wanted it.

Rip never mentioned double-twisted, however, I think it's just perfect: heats relatively quickly, especially when compared to triple-twisted, works in a number of devices well, and though I have no idea what the gauge equivalence of double-twisted wire is compared to its thicker counterparts, it seems to produce an added layer of flavor, if that makes any sense.

I think a dual-coil is entirely unnecessary for this device, though some might desire larger clouds and/or want to build subohm coils, but you could easily do subohm duals with this wire. I can't remember the wraps. It works; that's enough for me.

 

[sandman97289]

I don't know how all you guys get so much flavor from MVJ juices. I have 8-9 different ones with extra flavor and all of them have steeped from 1-4 months depending on when I got them. All I can taste from most is a sort of burley flavor. Even the newer H&H extracts of Diane are weak to me and I can't distinguish much. I'm starting to wonder if I need to lay off NETs for a while to get my buds back on track.....

 

[Dusty_D]

I don't know how all you guys get so much flavor from MVJ juices. I have 8-9 different ones with extra flavor and all of them have steeped from 1-4 months depending on when I got them. All I can taste from most is a sort of burley flavor. Even the newer H&H extracts of Diane are weak to me and I can't distinguish much. I'm starting to wonder if I need to lay off NETs for a while to get my buds back on track.....

What juices do you have Sandman?! What are you using them in? What wicking medium? What voltage/wattage?

I found a couple of the first batch I got from Diane a bit on the weaker side, one downright indistinguishable in flavour. The ones I got recently, definitely not the case so far. I still have around 1/2 dozen or so to try out including all of the Davidoff line but I'm noticing a definite change in my batch from May vs my batch from August.

 

[sandman97289]

What juices do you have Sandman?! What are you using them in? What wicking medium? What voltage/wattage?

I found a couple of the first batch I got from Diane a bit on the weaker side, one downright indistinguishable in flavour. The ones I got recently, definitely not the case so far. I still have around 1/2 dozen or so to try out including all of the Davidoff line but I'm noticing a definite change in my batch from May vs my batch from August.

The juices I have:

Borkum Riff Original Pipe Tobacc
Captain Black Regular Pipe Tobac
Sutliff Private Stock - Charlema
Ashton Artisan's Blend Pipe Tobacco
Dunhill Nightcap Pipe Tobacco
Hearth & Home Signature - Stogie Pipe Tobacco
Hearth & Home Signature - Louisiana Red Pipe Tobacco
Hearth & Home Signature - LJ Heart Burley Pipe Tobacco

Out of the above I can only really taste the Ashton Artisen Blend and Dunhill Nightcap because of their strong Latakia flavors.

I always drip them in either a Zenith v2, Plume Veil or Trident v2. I haven't used my Magmas or Veritas for them because I usually just want to sample a few drops to determine if they've steeped enough or not. I always use KGD for wicking and generally have a dual coil setup and vape around 26-30 watts with the dual coils. On a single coil like in my Trident I vape at around 18 watts.

 

[Dusty_D]

The juices I have:

Borkum Riff Original Pipe Tobacc
Captain Black Regular Pipe Tobac
Sutliff Private Stock - Charlema
Ashton Artisan's Blend Pipe Tobacco
Dunhill Nightcap Pipe Tobacco
Hearth & Home Signature - Stogie Pipe Tobacco
Hearth & Home Signature - Louisiana Red Pipe Tobacco
Hearth & Home Signature - LJ Heart Burley Pipe Tobacco

Out of the above I can only really taste the Ashton Artisen Blend and Dunhill Nightcap because of their strong Latakia flavors.

I always drip them in either a Zenith v2, Plume Veil or Trident v2. I haven't used my Magmas or Veritas for them because I usually just want to sample a few drops to determine if they've steeped enough or not. I always use KGD for wicking and generally have a dual coil setup and vape around 26-30 watts with the dual coils. On a single coil like in my Trident I vape at around 18 watts.

Have you tried them in the 12 - 15W range? Bronze, and to a certain extent me have always maintained that too high heat can sometimes wash out the flavour of some juices.

I'm vaping on Charlemagne right now, and have Louisiana Red in a different KFL upstairs. Ample flavour in the 10 - 12W range.

 

[AnthonyB]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they said it has to be a bottle of each nic level, pg vg level or any other customizations they may offer for all sizes. It sounded completely absurd to me while they were telling me too. Absurd and idiotic, if you ask me.

3 quick comments:

1) There will most likely be legal proceedings against the FDA as there was in 2009.

2) if all else fails the industry will relocate to places like Canada unless of course, Canada follows suit.

3) Bills economic model of the life of industries is more aligned with industries that have very difficult and expensive costs of entry. The costs of entry into an e-cig business is very low. Therefore I believe that what we will see is something similar to the black market trade of liquor during the prohibition.

4) if all else fails, there is China. A bleak outlook really but it's better than being lured back into smoking.


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[sandman97289]

Have you tried them in the 12 - 15W range? Bronze, and to a certain extent me have always maintained that too high heat can sometimes wash out the flavour of some juices.

I'm vaping on Charlemagne right now, and have Louisiana Red in a different KFL upstairs. Ample flavour in the 10 - 12W range.

You may be right. I have noticed that if the vape is on the warmer side I tend to get what I can only call "dead spots" on my tongue where I can't taste much for another hour. I'll give it another go on my Trident with a single coil at lower wattages tonight.

 

[AnthonyB]

You can count on it as far as I'm concerned. All I need do is step up the volume I extract, easy peasey.

Looks like we might need to talk again in the near future Boomer.

Be my friend, godfather?


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[Dusty_D]

You may be right. I have noticed that if the vape is on the warmer side I tend to get what I can only call "dead spots" on my tongue where I can't taste much for another hour. I'll give it another go on my Trident with a single coil at lower wattages tonight.

Best of luck.. There's flavour to be discovered for sure.

You may want to scrub your tongue down while you're at it. Get rid of some over worked buds. Consider it a similar process to changing your wick.

 

[billherbst]

I have 15 of the 2nd generation NET extracts from MVJ---cigars and pipes. I'd call them "subtle" rather than "weak," but that's largely a semantic distinction. All of my home-brewed extracts---5 cigarettes/RYOs, 22 pipes, and 9 cigars---are stronger with more flavor impact than any of the 2nd gen MVJ extracts I have when mixed at the same percentages. By contrast, most of MVJ's give cleaner performance than most of mine, with slower coil crusting and wick gunking.

Generally speaking, flavor and performance in macerated NETs are inversely proportional. Increase one and the other decreases. After being criticized by some people for the "muddiness" of MVJ's 1st generation juices and extracts, I think Diane made a decision to to go after squeaky-clean performance with the 2nd gen extracts, and she achieved that. The trade-off was that the flavors weren't bold.

Now Diane has made another course correction in the "reformulation" of existing MVJ juices/extracts plus a new line of 3rd generation NETs by moving back toward more flavor, which probably implies performance that isn't quite so clean. I haven't had any of those juices or extracts, however, so I'm just speculating.

The holy grail for macerated natural tobacco extracts is, of course, bold, intense, and clear flavors along with clean performance, i.e., reduced or slower gunking of coils and wicks. I probably shouldn't speak for any other home extractor, but I think both johni and I are pretty happy with the flavor component of our extracts, so our quest is to improve their performance through more refined filtering, but to do so without any loss of flavor. Historically, boomer has gone for the gusto of full flavor with less concern for performance, but I think even he has upped his game with more sophisticated filtering. As a retail vendor, Diane has the same challenge, but she's approaching it from the other end of the spectrum---more flavor without sacrificing performance.

 

[Skeebo]

Indeed. Bombay may be more of a 'Beginner's Latakia', but I find that I enjoyed Balkan even moreso. I really can't describe the flavor, other than that I can vape it all day.

RE: Skeebo:

I wonder, which of the HHV juices were your favorites, Skeebo?

I really enjoyed Shadow, Legend, Maple Eh?, and Dragon's Fire back in the day. Have not tried Gaia yet.

If you like tobaccos that pack a punch, Latakia will be right up your alley. I either go for that or a Turkish blend if I've had a stressful day/moment, really stops my "remembrance of analog days" cravings, if you know what I mean.

Personally, I like Dover Court and Coventry from NETCom over GeJ's Vita Bella, but my first 10ml bottle of VB that I ordered was delicious.

My other GeJ favorite is Acadian Gold.... though I've been too broke to order some more; I'm just adding flue-cured Virginia extract to the Chocktaw Perique I got for the moment.

I may be a few pages behind, so, sorry if anyone else already asked you this.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The HHV juices I have tried are Huntsman, Legend, Pirates Booty, Heavenly Army, Dark Horse, Shadow, Dragon's Fire, and Temptation. The only one I did not care for was Temptation. All the rest were very good with Pirates Booty and Shadow being my favorite. I thought Dark Horse was good too. Huntsman two weeks fresh was not my cup of tea; and from what I am told benefits with a long steep, so I need to revisit that one. I have a lot of HHV liquid on hand. I haven't used them in a while and have thought about digging back into them. I might do so tonight actually.

I've been on a serious Ahlusion kick lately and need a little change up to keep things interesting. Perhaps Huntsman is ready now, it's a little over two months old.

I have tried a few other NET's, that were a bit stronger than HHV in regards to tobacco flavor. Ahlusion's Caribbean Blend (Aromatic) and had a small sample of Trabuco's Silverado (I think it's called that). I guess my earlier statement as this being my first travels into the true NET world is a bit false. I chalk it up to getting old and simply not remembering until now. It's either that, or that Bob Marley phase I went through for about 23 years.

TMI, I know......

 

[AnthonyB]

Anthony, I just started up with my second batch of MVJ's juices last night. Drew Estate Heirloom Cherry and, right off the bat it seems a heck of a lot stronger than the previous batch I received even though it's not aged anywhere close to my previous batch. I did notice the bottles are a bit darker as well compared to my previous order.

I'm wondering if Diane has tweaked the ratio of extract in the juice based on feedback, or if this is the result of the new filtration system. Whatever it is, it made me pause and check the settings on my device because it grabbed me by the throat when I first fired it up.

This is exciting feedback, Dusty.



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